The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Movies
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-27-2003, 03:20 PM   #1
HCIsland
Zombie Cannibal
 
HCIsland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,000
HCIsland has just left Hobbiton.
Sting Sequence Analysis

I think sometimes we lose sight of how complicated this story is and what a job Jackson did getting it’s elements on the screen in a comprehensible fashion. Not only are there a wide variety of characters and locations to link together, the story has to be linked into the past. Jackson has to connect the events of the past with the characters and events of this story. He does this so cleanly that it appears simple, but it is not.<P>Below is a description of one of my favourite sequences in the film and how Jackson uses is to force us to see the connections between Isildur and Aragorn. What’s wonderful about this is that he does it without any exposition, but instead through snippets of dialogue and the environment the characters walk in itself. He even has time for a little character development. This is all done is a space of a little over two minutes. It seems so simple and subtle that the sequence just flies by.<P>Gandalf and Elrond are talking in Rivendell before the council. Elrond has just finished recounting his tale with Isildur in the battle of the Last Alliance.<P>Gandalf: There is one who could unit them, one who could reclaim the throne of Gondor.<BR>Elrond: He turned from the path a long time ago. He has chosen exile.<P>Cut to a close-up of Aragorn making an obvious implication he was the one they were talking about, connection one.<P>Boromir enters and the camera pans with him as he studies a fresco of Isildur holding up the broken Narsil against Sauron (this is virtually his introduction, though we did have a previous shot of him riding into Rivendell several minutes earlier). Jackson then cuts to a Boromir close-up and then to a close-up of the painting, focusing on Narsil and paning up to Sauron’s visually distinctive helmet. There is no doubt that this is the same scene as in the prologue. This is now the fourth time we have seen this event portrayed: the prologue, the scroll of Isildur, Elrond’s recounting and now the fresco. With the close-ups on the painting, one would have had to be asleep not to connect the fresco to the prologue. We now have a very solid connection between the present and the past.<P>Five seconds later we get a zoom in close-up of the actual Shards of Narsil when Boromir turns around to examine the statue and pedestal behind him. Again, the audience can’t help but connect the sword from the prologue to the sword that Boromir is now picking up.<P>Boromir: (his first line in the movie) The Shards of Narsil, the blade that cut the Ring from Sauron’s hand.<P>Boromir cuts his finger.<P>Boromir: (surprised) It’s still sharp.<P>That is, this weapon is still capable of drawing blood. I would call this symbolism but it’s too literally true. PJ is really drawing out this scene as we need to remember it two movies later.<P>Boromir turns and makes eye contact with Aragorn. Cut to close-up of Aragorn watching Boromir which is virtually the same shot as the one that was cut to after Elrond. Again connections are being made, Aragorn and the sword as well Aragorn and Boromir, who form one of the most important relationships in this film.<P>Boromir: But no more than a broken arrow.<P>He goes to place the sword back on the pedestal but it falls off and clatters to the floor. Cut to shot of Boromir’s back as he leaves. He pauses and almost turns like he is going to pick up the sword but then he walks away. This is a wonderful bit of symbolism giving the audience and glimpse at the conflict in this character, a conflict between the past and his future, a conflict between respecting the lineage that the sword represents and his own desires to blaze his own path.<P>Aragorn then walks over and reverently places the sword back in its place. Again we have symbolism surrounding the sword. Boromir has abandoned the past but Aragorn, at the very least, respects and honors it. It is interesting how in the theatrical version there are no lines between Boromir and Aragorn here. They are already creating tension between these two characters and separating them. Even in the special edition their conversation is terse and awkward and Jackson never holds puts them together in a single shot.<P>Arwen enters from behind Aragorn and moves to stand right in front of the Fresco of Isildur and Sauron again drawing the audiences attention to the history behind these characters (very literally in this case).<P>Arwen: Why do you fear the past? You are Isildur’s heir, not Isildur himself. You are not bound to his fate.<P>It has now been just over a minute and a half since the cut from Elrond to Aragorn. In that brief time we’ve gone from our first hint of Aragorn’s lineage, to Aragorn reverently holding the sword that we saw in the prologue and now it being stated right out that he is Isildur’s heir. A first time viewer not familiar with the books would likely have trouble remembering the name of Isildur in a film with a dizzying amount of detail, but Jackson is doing everything he can to help this person out. The name has actually been spoken aloud on a number of occasions, right up there in count with the names of the main characters, and the last time it was spoken was Elrond’s very dramatic yelling of it at the Cracks of Doom only a few minutes earlier in the film. And just in case you haven’t been paying attention, when Arwen speaks this line she is behind Aragorn and behind the both of them is that fresco of Isildur. Aragorn, Arwen and the fresco are all facing the camera. Again, you would have to be asleep not to realize that Aragorn is the descendent of the guy in the painting and the guy we saw at the beginning of the film, even if you’ve forgotten his name again. <P>This means that when Legolas announces to Boromir that Aragorn is heir to the throne of Gondor in council, that it is information that we already know (or at the very least it is no longer surprising) which means that PJ can focus the scene (and the audience) on the reactions of Boromir and Frodo.<P>That’s movie making.<P>H.C.
__________________
"Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs."
-Denethor
HCIsland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2003, 04:13 PM   #2
Iarwain
Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Birnham Wood
Posts: 808
Iarwain has just left Hobbiton.
Boots

Fanciful. That was an intricate bit of structuring on Peter's part, probably one of his best. It would be nice if some more detailed sequences were pointed out before I develop and share an opinion. <P>Until that later time,<BR>Iarwain
__________________
"And what are oaths but words we say to God?"
Iarwain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2003, 04:36 PM   #3
Tinuviel87
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Heelllloooo Monkey......
Posts: 65
Tinuviel87 has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Tinuviel87
Silmaril

*Applauds loudly for H.C.* <BR>Excellent post, it's comforting to bash PJ for making certain choices in the films so far *cough* Faramir *cough* But We really do need to give the guy some credit, these books are a work of genius, they are incredibly intricate and full of history and minute details. So though I personally get a feeling of great content after seisuring each time i see EvilTwin Faramir onscreen, I still have to give PJ credit for the great films he's made, he has brought one of all of our greatest fantasies to life, so bravo to HC for the outstanding PJ support!<BR>~Tinuviel
__________________
Don't Rate Me!(Reverse Psychology?)
"And the song of Luthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed..."
Tinuviel87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2003, 05:46 PM   #4
Liriodendron
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Liriodendron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Indiana
Posts: 532
Liriodendron has just left Hobbiton.
Thumbs up

Yes! Thank you HC! I'm happy to read positive thoughts about one of my favorite movie scenes. I always wonder why Boromir appears so "hasty" after cutting his finger. It seems as if he is embarrassed that Aragorn saw it happen. In that extended edition scene, I am always touched by the "tenderness" in Boromir's voice ("Friend") when he first speaks to Aragorn. The actors are wonderful. Why doesn't Aragorn warm up more? What's he thinking here? Gosh, I love the bit of emphasis on the humans in this movie! The Council of Elrond was..er...pretty empty (awful ) but then scenes like this (IMO) are quite touching! <p>[ April 27, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]
__________________
http://www.lizmargason.com
Liriodendron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2003, 06:08 PM   #5
Meela
Denethor's True Love
 
Meela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... *swoon*
Posts: 2,118
Meela has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

It was an excellent connection, and one which I had not thought on before. Thanks for noting this for us all, it is a great piece of the film.
__________________
'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age?
2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.
Meela is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2003, 06:26 PM   #6
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,468
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

Outstanding post, HC. Thank you. <P>We all know the scenes which cause great consternation and debate amongst the Downs community. So it is really quite refreshing to read such a thoughtful analysis of how Jackson makes use of the techniques available to him as a film-maker to bring across the essential elements of such a complex story. <P>It makes me wonder how I would have reacted to this scene and what I would have drawn from it, had I not read the books first.
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2003, 08:15 AM   #7
the real findorfin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Mirkwood
Posts: 514
the real findorfin has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to the real findorfin Send a message via AIM to the real findorfin
Sting

I am very pleased that I found this post, absolutely astounding HC, thank you very much!<P>I only wish you could do this for the whole film!
__________________
Legends of Middle Earth
the real findorfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2003, 11:22 AM   #8
HCIsland
Zombie Cannibal
 
HCIsland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,000
HCIsland has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I only wish you could do this for the whole film! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My God! <P>All that was only for a two minute sequence. It struck me to do that sequence when I was watching Fellowship Friday night with my wife and when this part came on I made the comment, "I love this bit. There's so much going on". There are other sequences like this, I can leave them for others if they want to attack them.<P>One of the things I love about a good film is how much of this happens and it is completely subconscious. So much is done without the audience even being aware of it.<P>H.C.
__________________
"Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs."
-Denethor
HCIsland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2003, 04:15 PM   #9
Iarwain
Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Birnham Wood
Posts: 808
Iarwain has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

You did a nice job realizing the value of such sequences, but I will never cease to disagree (because I'm a stubborn old Iarwain who refuses to forget that the movies are derivatives of the books). I, therefore, will object to anyone calling Peter Jackson a genius until he produces something that accurately reflects the complexity and value of Tolkien's masterpeice (he has one final chance at this, and I'm more confident than ever that it will prove to be the greatest of his failures). I realize many of you will call this folly because you see it as an irrationality. I do, and always will respond to this with the reasoning that if no sufficient reproduction can be made, none should be made at all. I realize that many of you love these films, if not obsessively. I also see that for some of you they are the only reason for visiting this site. Perhaps they are great films, and I am just one of the few who cannot and will not view them as such. It really doesn't matter. I felt that I had to express these thoughts for, perhaps, the last time. I'm sorry if I've been rude or obstinate or commited some other such crime, and if protest is made I will readily delete this post.<P><BR>Iarwain
__________________
"And what are oaths but words we say to God?"
Iarwain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2003, 05:20 PM   #10
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Peter Jackson did a good job. Plain and simple. I loved the first movie, and liked the second movie. I thought he did a good job of sticking to the books (I'm a sticking to the books patriot) in the first movie, and although he strayed quite a bit more in the second movie ( and has recived much critisism from me because of it!), I'll go on the record as saying he didn't come even close to butchering it. Sure, I'd have liked to see a more booktual TTT (who doesn't), but I thought he did a pretty good job on TTT, just the same. P.S. And an awesome job on Fotr, he didn't add ANYTHING pointless, and he only took out the things that would've been confusing, or weren't needed. <p>[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2003, 10:59 PM   #11
Tar-Palantir
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: napa valley, ca
Posts: 496
Tar-Palantir has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> the reasoning that if no sufficient reproduction can be made, none should be made at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why? I don't see a point in being so haughty about the whole thing. For goodness sake Iarwain, you should be applauding these films for demonstrating how complex Tolkien's works are, not insulting the film and it's makers for flaws in their interpretation.<P>HC - this analysis was fun to read, thanks for taking the time to sort that out. It would be neat to see the original script with margin notes, references and all, to see what they were going for specifically with each scene. It might clear up quite a bit of the "why, why, why?"
__________________
History shows again and again
How nature points up the folly of men
Go, go, Godzilla!
Tar-Palantir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2003, 01:14 AM   #12
Annúnlótëiel
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA (But I am Argentine!)
Posts: 31
Annúnlótëiel has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Thankyou HC for that, I agree that it was a great scene. <P>I think that no matter what there will always be criticism. Unfortunately that is the case. <P>We must keep in mine that PJ is making this film for thousands (that's right thousands) of fans and every single fan has thier own interpretation. For example, I love the relationships between the characters I find them so pure, esspecially the hobbits, so I would have made the film more focused on those emotions and drama and not so much battle...ah but that wouldn't please everyone I am sure. He is trying to make is appeal to as many as he can. Put your self in his place. Trying to do this into a movie is a very difficult task, much more than I can imagine, I am sure.<P>Perhaps I am guillable but I truly think he is trying. I did not see the TTT film so perhaps all I just said was invalid...but I hope it made some sense. ^-^<P>I used "I am sure" too much...
__________________
~*~Annúnlótëiel~*~

sigo mi corazón
Annúnlótëiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2003, 10:58 AM   #13
HCIsland
Zombie Cannibal
 
HCIsland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,000
HCIsland has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm sorry if I've been rude or obstinate or commited some other such crime, and if protest is made I will readily delete this post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You certainly haven't been, Iarwain. You have every right to hate these movies, just as others have every right to love them and your reasons are just as valid. Certainly there are many changes that don't sit right with you and that's fine. Personally though, the films (especially Fellowship) were far closer to the books than I would have expected and I delight with every tidbit from the books that Jackson makes work on film.<P>If I were to make a list of my favourite all time films, most of them are ones that I have no trouble finding others to hate. In fact Fellowship (TTT wouldn't make the cut) is certainly one of the most mainstream of the list. So having someone hate a movie I love doesn't bother me in the least.<P>When I first went to Fellowship I was worried, not that it would take liberties with Tolkien, I knew it would. I was worried the movie would be just plain bad. That people who have never read the book would see it and think that it sucked. I love that these films are drawing in so many fans and that many of them are going out and buying the books. The movie is an introduction to Tolkien, it certainly is not Tolkien. In fact, one of the most offensive things Jackson could have done is titled the movies "JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings".<P>I guess what I am trying to say is that I see where you're coming from but for me I was never looking for as close a translation as possible in the first place.<P>H.C.
__________________
"Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs."
-Denethor
HCIsland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2003, 12:24 PM   #14
Liriodendron
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Liriodendron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Indiana
Posts: 532
Liriodendron has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I agree with you. The location, costumes, props and other visual stuff is wonderful! Visually, 90% of the stuff I've seen has pleased me to no end! And I didn't expect it to be so good either. I generally don't like movies period. The actors for Boromir,Aragorn, Bilbo, Gandalf and some others have been wonderful. I'm fond of the small sequence when the ring falls in the snow at Caradhras also.
__________________
http://www.lizmargason.com
Liriodendron is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:05 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.