Doom of the Noldor

[thorondil]

Did all of the Noldor deserve to be cursed by the Valar? During the Kinslaying, the host of Feanor were stealing ships plain and simple. But Fingon and the host of Fingolfin:

...coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and rushed in before they rightly knew the cause of the quarrel; some thought indeed that the Teleri had sought to waylay the march of the Noldor at the bidding of the Valar.

Should all of them have been cursed, even those (like Fingon, Turgon, and Galadriel) who did not go back and seek the pardon of the Valar? Seems kind of unfair to me. They were a noble, goodhearted, and proud people.

[Joy]

I was just re-reading the chapter "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" in the UT last night.

I was looking at the character of Voronwë, he is part Noldorin, but also part Telerin. Why was the Doom of the Noldor placed against him. He was born in Middle-Earth, had no part in the Kin-Slayings, yet from my understanding, he could not cross the Great Sea into the Undying Lands either.

[Lindolirian]

As for the Kinslayings, they did not just steal ships. The killed their family. It was one of the first murderous acts in the most peaceful, perfect land in a new world. It was a very serious crime, whether they knew why they were doing it or not. Also, the Valar wanted to leave those in Middle Earth to their own devices. The only reason Earendil made it past the Shadowy Seas and to throught the Enchanted Isles was because of the light of the Silmaril. He was not permitted to come for any circumstance. They just figured, "He's here, we might as well here him out." Then as discussed later in the chapter (The Voyage of Earendil) they decided to pardon Earendil because he came out of love for the two kindreds, and his wife out of love for him.

[Beren87]

Well, Galadriel at least knew what was going on, she did fight against Feanor as soon as she saw the episode. The rest really had time to see what was happening.

[Nils]

As for the Kinslayings, they did not just steal ships. The killed their family. It was one of the first murderous acts in the most peaceful, perfect land in a new world. It was a very serious crime, whether they knew why they were doing it or not.

It takes two to tango.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

The Doom of Mandos spoke against the Noldor themselves and on anyone who followed them or participated in their war to reclaim the Silmarils.

[ December 01, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

[Maédhros]

Should all of them have been cursed, even those (like Fingon, Turgon, and Galadriel) who did not go back and seek the pardon of the Valar? Seems kind of unfair to me. They were a noble, goodhearted, and proud people.

I would say that yes, they should have fallen under the Doom, maybe with the possible exception of Galadriel, which in one of the later revisions in Unfinished Tales, she is said to have taken no part in the slayings and she was leaving Valinórë.
I wonder about the elves (Ñoldor) that were born in ME, why would they be under the Doom, if they were not in that, why suffer the same consequences.

[lindil]

No where that I am aware of are the noldor cursed by the Valar. The Doom was I think merely a foresight that they would become enmeshed in an altoghether ineffective [ I won't say fruitless] Attempt to regain the Silmarillis and or avenge Finwe.

Why were they karmically ensnared?
1] The kinslaying
2] No Blessing of the Valar to go - It was the wrong time, to spread their wings and live on their own and to fight Morgoth.
3]Morgoth would turn his evil will against them and it would be [ as the valar knew] more than the Noldor [mighty , brave and strong s they were] could stand up to.
4]They were reacting to Morgoth's events [which the valar refused to do] instead of patiently searching out the Will of Eru [ in their hearts or via manwe and co.]

So for all of those reasons [ and not all apply to each Noldor, but most apply to all and their descendants and 1/2 descendants like Voronwe] they were ensnared in a web as it were. As were Thingol[ and thus his entire kingdom], the moment he sent Beren after the Silmarill [Melian says as much] and Beleg [ through his involvment w/ Turin and thus Morgoth's curse on his family].

So the Silmarillion you could say is largely about the interconnectedness of friendships and life, and how even those fighting a bad guy or in this case THE Bad Guy, can do so from less than pure motives or a less than pure position.

From the get go JRRT is trying to teach, I think humility. Through Feanor's utter lack of it and his angry and swift end, to Galadriel, having some meausure of it in going to learn from melian and leaving Beleriand before the mess came down around her head [a result and measure of her relative innocence perhaps].

Indeed this lack of humility on the part of Feanor's sole grand-child plunges the world into another age and a half of war!

He was warned by Gil-galad and Elrond not to treat with Annatar[?] but he clearly did as he thought best.

As the chinese say an error of an inch in the begining leads to an error of thousand miles in the end.

Of course repentance is always [theoretically at least] possible and we see characters such as Boromir take this for themselves.

Galadriel herself must pass through the final temptation of the ring as must Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn and Boromir and Faramir, nearly all of the leaders of the west [Denenthor was relieved of this burden by his son, and this was a great part of his wrath towards Faramir].

So the Doom of the Noldor reverberates down through 7,ooo or so years and is only fully resolved by Frodo, Sam and Gollum , with the aid of the wise and the Numenorean exiles.

[thorondil]

Lindil writes:

No where that I am aware of are the noldor cursed by the Valar.

From Of the Flight of the Noldor:

Then all halted and stood still, and from end to end of the hosts of the Noldor the voice was heard speaking the curse and prophecy which is called the Prophecy of the North, and the Doom of the Noldor. Much it foretold in dark words, which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them; but all heard the curse that was uttered upon those that would not stay nor seek the doom and pardon of the Valar.

[doug*platypus]

Even the gods/Valar are not perfect. Did the punishment really fit the crime? Almost all of the leaders of the Noldor were willing to forsake the Undying Lands to fight a war of vengeance against Morgoth. But what about the people that they led? I think that many Noldor were unjustly forbidden to return to Aman. The Valar ruled their domain strictly. It was almost a police state. Certainly, Feanor shouldn't have drawn his sword on his half-brother, but did the Valar have to ban him for that? Why couldn't they have tried to understand him, to get to the root of the problem? They may have forgiven the Noldor for their rebellion eventually, but only after many years and much suffering, and then only at the intervention of Earendil and not out of pity. I think that in the First Age, Ulmo was the only one of the Valar who showed the pity that we should hope for in such supposedly enlightened beings.

[Ar-Gilien]

To me, the doom of the Noldor was sealed when Feanor first began to forge the Silmarils, that is, the Great Jewels. But it seems that more than just the doom of the Noldor were tied to them, anyone and anything who was involved in that Saga, even unto Morgoth himself, was doomed to play some role in the existence of the Jewels. '..and Mandos foretold that fates of Arda, earth, sea, and air; lay locked within them.'

(The Silmarillion, Chapter 7: Of the Silmarils, and the Unrest of the Noldor, page 67.)

[lindil]

but all heard the curse that was uttered upon those that would not stay nor seek the doom and pardon of the Valar.

I would still hold that the 'curse' is more karmic retribution "as you sow so shall you reap' than an out right malediction. Thanks for the quote though Thorondil.