Sauron and the Ring - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

07-13-2003, 02:15 PM

Ya, was just wondering- If the one ring made you invisible, then why was Sauron visible in the beginning of the first lotr movie?

07-13-2003, 02:17 PM

OOps forget that, i suppose that this question belongs in the movies forum

Elennar Starfire · 07-14-2003, 09:54 AM

Sauron was the master of the ring, and he didn't want to be invisible, so he wasn't. At least that's what I think. Welcome to the downs, LotR Lover, enjoy being dead!

Meela · 07-14-2003, 09:56 AM

Maybe because he made it, it didn't affect him in the same way as everyone else, ie. it didn't turn him invisible. Perhaps he was too powerful to need to be invisible, as though the invisibility thing is only to shield you from your enemies so they can't hurt you. Sauron couldn't be hurt, and didn't need to hide. Perhaps he had more power and control over the ring because he made it and therefore he could choose either to be invisible or visible. Perhaps when someone was invisible it was how Sauron saw they had the ring, and so Frodo, Isildur, etc. turned invisible because it was a way of tracking them. Sauron wasn't tracking himself, obviously, so he didn't turn invisible. Just a few suggestions. I don't have an exact answer or anything.

ESTEN · 07-14-2003, 06:27 PM

From what I understand the power of the ring was not that it made the wearer invisible, but that it amplified certain strengths that the wearer had, ie hobbits could be sneaky creatures and therefore the ring amplified this ability. When Frodo asks Gandalf to take the ring he speaks some of incredible magic powers. I could be wrong, but that is what I think

Aragost · 07-15-2003, 10:40 AM

i believe that you are correct ESTEN

**The Saucepan Man** · 07-15-2003, 12:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> From what I understand the power of the ring was not that it made the wearer invisible, but that it amplified certain strengths that the wearer had, ie hobbits could be sneaky creatures and therefore the ring amplified this ability. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I disagree. Among the many powers that it conferred, the Ring made the wearer invisible. My interpretation is that the Ring takes the wearer out of the physical world and into the wraith world. Accordingly, Frodo was able to see the Nazgul (creatures of the wraith world) in their true form when he put on the Ring at Weathertop.The power of the Ring to confer invisibility applied not just to Hobbits, but also to Men - Isildur for example. It was also a feature of the other Rings of Power, at least the Seven and the Nine. The Men who were to become the Nazgul were able to use the Nine Rings to become invisible at will (which suggests that the power could be controlled by the wearer). Once they succumbed through the Nine to Sauron's will, however, they became permamently invisible (under their cloaks and armour), becoming creatures of the wraith world. There is a recent thread somewhere in Books discussing whether Dwarves were affected by the power of the Rings to confer invisibility, given that they were able to resist domination by Sauron through the Seven (unlike Men through the Nine). On balance, I see no reason why Dwarves would not become invisible when wearing one of the Rings.There is even more debate over whether invisibility would affect Elves and Maiar (such as Gandalf). Personally, I doubt whether it would affect any who had once resided in Valinor and who already existed partially in the spirit world (Frodo sees Glorfindel in his "spiritual" shape in the (Book) scene at the Ford of Bruinen).As for why Sauron was not invisible when he wore the Ring, I suspect that this is because he did not want to be invisible. Even if he was affected by its power to confer invisibility, which I doubt, he would most certainly have been able to control that power.

The Only Real Estel · 07-15-2003, 12:30 PM

You hit the nail right on the head, Saucepan Man, & well done. I was going to mention the fact that Isildur was turned invisible by the Ring as well; so it couldn't be just the hobbits, but you've already mentioned that...

07-16-2003, 01:53 PM

Saron was the maker of the ring so he emboided it when someone puts the ring on when its out of sarons possesion it allowes him to see there exact location to see where the ring is!

LePetitChoux · 07-23-2003, 01:45 PM

Another thing, the Saucepan Man said that the Ring made the Nazgûl invisible under all their cloaks and armour, which would explain Sauron's visibility, for we saw only his armour in the movie and no bare flesh. However, when Hobbits put the Ring on, they become completely invisible, clothes and all. Perhaps this is because of their lesser powers?

The Only Real Estel · 07-23-2003, 06:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Another thing, the Saucepan Man said that the Ring made the Nazgûl invisible under all their cloaks and armour, which would explain Sauron's visibility, for we saw only his armour in the movie and no bare flesh. However, when Hobbits put the Ring on, they become completely invisible, clothes and all. Perhaps this is because of their lesser powers?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LePetitChoux: I think this is actually the expanation. The Ring didn't make Sauron TOTALLY invisable at the start of the movie because he didn't wish it to. Probably cause he didn't need to be invisable. Anyway. The reason why the Ringwraiths were invisable except for their cloaks was that they were partially in the spirit world, so they had to have something to 'give shape to their nothingness'. I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong though) that the Ring made them invisable, but rather their half-deadness. Naturally when a hobbit puts on the Ring, he can't master it to his own will (if he didn't want to be invisable, he couldn't change it, in other words.), & he's not half in the spirit world, therefor he's invisable! At least that's how I've alwayw understood it, & it makes at least partial sense to me.

Silmiel of Imladris · 07-23-2003, 06:12 PM

I agree that Sauron didn't need invisiblity because he could pretty much kill whoever stood in his way. Don't we have two threads with this same question?

07-23-2003, 06:33 PM

First of all, the nazgul didnt have the 1 ring, they had the nine rings of men. They were seeking the 1 ring.

07-23-2003, 11:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Naturally when a hobbit puts on the Ring, he can't master it to his own will (if he didn't want to be invisable, he couldn't change it, in other words.), <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> alright, i agree that a hobbit (naturally) couldnt master it, but not because he did not make it, but because he does not know or understand the full extent of it's power. if Frodo had known and understood all the properties of the One Ring, i think that he might have been able to choose to be visible or invisible.

The Only Real Estel · 07-24-2003, 08:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>alright, i agree that a hobbit (naturally) couldnt master it, but not because he did not make it, but because he does not know or understand the full extent of it's power. if Frodo had known and understood all the properties of the One Ring, i think that he might have been able to choose to be visible or invisible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Maybe. But another reason why I think he NEVER could've mastered it is something Aragorn said (& I already believed),"...The One Ring answers to Sauron alone, It has no other master!" I believe that ONLY Sauron could ever command or master the Ring. But perhaps that's just me, I don't know.

Nehani · 07-24-2003, 12:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The One Ring answers to Sauron alone, It has no other master <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree. That's how I always thought of it. I think that Sauron can cantrol it because he made it and masters it, so it would make sense if he didn't turn invisible. But hat's just me!Nehani of the Forests

The Only Real Estel · 07-28-2003, 05:55 PM

Nehani: Maybe it's just you AND me. But I think we've also ot a ton of other people on our side that just haven't voiced it yet...

HCIsland · 07-28-2003, 07:30 PM

I agree with Saucepan. There are more indepth discussions on this in the books forum. There are many more tidbits in the books that shed light on this.Definately the Ring effects different beings differently. Tom Bombadil also did not go invisible when he put on The Ring. I think the mortality of the wearer factors into it as well, but I would have to search for evidence to back this up. Unfortunately, I don't have copies of the book with me.H.C.

Genevieve · 07-28-2003, 09:29 PM

I agree with Nehani and The Only Real Estel, that Sauron made it and therefore can control it. I think Sauron has more control over the ring than the ring has over him. That's what I think.-Genevieve

07-13-2003, 02:15 PM	#1
LotR Lover Guest Posts: n/a	Sauron and the Ring Ya, was just wondering- If the one ring made you invisible, then why was Sauron visible in the beginning of the first lotr movie?

07-14-2003, 09:54 AM	#3
Elennar Starfire Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2003 Location: Nowhere...now here Posts: 1,049	Sauron was the master of the ring, and he didn't want to be invisible, so he wasn't. At least that's what I think.<BR>Welcome to the downs, LotR Lover, enjoy being dead! __________________ Don't let me die!

07-14-2003, 09:56 AM	#4
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,118	Maybe because he made it, it didn't affect him in the same way as everyone else, ie. it didn't turn him invisible. Perhaps he was too powerful to need to be invisible, as though the invisibility thing is only to shield you from your enemies so they can't hurt you. Sauron couldn't be hurt, and didn't need to hide.<BR>Perhaps he had more power and control over the ring because he made it and therefore he could choose either to be invisible or visible. Perhaps when someone was invisible it was how Sauron saw they had the ring, and so Frodo, Isildur, etc. turned invisible because it was a way of tracking them. Sauron wasn't tracking himself, obviously, so he didn't turn invisible.<BR>Just a few suggestions. I don't have an exact answer or anything. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

07-15-2003, 10:40 AM	#6
Aragost Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Arthedain Posts: 137	i believe that you are correct ESTEN __________________ Where there's a whip there's a will

07-15-2003, 12:06 PM	#7
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,468	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> From what I understand the power of the ring was not that it made the wearer invisible, but that it amplified certain strengths that the wearer had, ie hobbits could be sneaky creatures and therefore the ring amplified this ability. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I disagree. Among the many powers that it conferred, the Ring made the wearer invisible. My interpretation is that the Ring takes the wearer out of the physical world and into the wraith world. Accordingly, Frodo was able to see the Nazgul (creatures of the wraith world) in their true form when he put on the Ring at Weathertop.<P>The power of the Ring to confer invisibility applied not just to Hobbits, but also to Men - Isildur for example. It was also a feature of the other Rings of Power, at least the Seven and the Nine. The Men who were to become the Nazgul were able to use the Nine Rings to become invisible at will (which suggests that the power could be controlled by the wearer). Once they succumbed through the Nine to Sauron's will, however, they became permamently invisible (under their cloaks and armour), becoming creatures of the wraith world. <P>There is a recent thread somewhere in Books discussing whether Dwarves were affected by the power of the Rings to confer invisibility, given that they were able to resist domination by Sauron through the Seven (unlike Men through the Nine). On balance, I see no reason why Dwarves would not become invisible when wearing one of the Rings.<P>There is even more debate over whether invisibility would affect Elves and Maiar (such as Gandalf). Personally, I doubt whether it would affect any who had once resided in Valinor and who already existed partially in the spirit world (Frodo sees Glorfindel in his "spiritual" shape in the (Book) scene at the Ford of Bruinen).<P>As for why Sauron was not invisible when he wore the Ring, I suspect that this is because he did not want to be invisible. Even if he was affected by its power to confer invisibility, which I doubt, he would most certainly have been able to control that power. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

07-13-2003, 02:17 PM	#2
LotR Lover Guest Posts: n/a	OOps forget that, i suppose that this question belongs in the movies forum

07-14-2003, 06:27 PM	#5
ESTEN Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Down the Rabbit hole Posts: 36	From what I understand the power of the ring was not that it made the wearer invisible, but that it amplified certain strengths that the wearer had, ie hobbits could be sneaky creatures and therefore the ring amplified this ability. When Frodo asks Gandalf to take the ring he speaks some of incredible magic powers. I could be wrong, but that is what I think

07-15-2003, 12:30 PM	#8
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 3,025	You hit the nail right on the head, Saucepan Man, & well done. I was going to mention the fact that Isildur was turned invisible by the Ring as well; so it couldn't be just the hobbits, but you've already mentioned that...

07-16-2003, 01:53 PM	#9
Princess Of Darkness Guest Posts: n/a	Saron was the maker of the ring so he emboided it when someone puts the ring on when its out of sarons possesion it allowes him to see there exact location to see where the ring is!

07-23-2003, 01:45 PM	#10
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 721	Another thing, the Saucepan Man said that the Ring made the Nazgûl invisible under all their cloaks and armour, which would explain Sauron's visibility, for we saw only his armour in the movie and no bare flesh. However, when Hobbits put the Ring on, they become completely invisible, clothes and all. Perhaps this is because of their lesser powers? __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

07-23-2003, 06:05 PM	#11
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 3,025	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Another thing, the Saucepan Man said that the Ring made the Nazgûl invisible under all their cloaks and armour, which would explain Sauron's visibility, for we saw only his armour in the movie and no bare flesh. However, when Hobbits put the Ring on, they become completely invisible, clothes and all. Perhaps this is because of their lesser powers?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LePetitChoux: I think this is actually the expanation. The Ring didn't make Sauron TOTALLY invisable at the start of the movie because he didn't wish it to. Probably cause he didn't need to be invisable. Anyway. The reason why the Ringwraiths were invisable except for their cloaks was that they were partially in the spirit world, so they had to have something to 'give shape to their nothingness'. I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong though) that the Ring made them invisable, but rather their half-deadness. Naturally when a hobbit puts on the Ring, he can't master it to his own will (if he <I>didn't</I> want to be invisable, he couldn't change it, in other words.), & he's not half in the spirit world, therefor he's invisable! At least that's how I've alwayw understood it, & it makes at least partial sense to me.

07-23-2003, 06:12 PM	#12
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	I agree that Sauron didn't need invisiblity because he could pretty much kill whoever stood in his way. Don't we have two threads with this same question? __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

07-23-2003, 06:33 PM	#13
LotR Lover Guest Posts: n/a	First of all, the nazgul didnt have the 1 ring, they had the nine rings of men. They were seeking the 1 ring.

07-23-2003, 11:27 PM	#14
Failariel Guest Posts: n/a	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Naturally when a hobbit puts on the Ring, he can't master it to his own will (if he didn't want to be invisable, he couldn't change it, in other words.), <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>alright, i agree that a hobbit (naturally) couldnt master it, but not because he did not make it, but because he does not know or understand the full extent of it's power. if Frodo had known and understood all the properties of the One Ring, i think that he might have been able to choose to be visible or invisible.

07-24-2003, 08:35 AM	#15
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 3,025	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>alright, i agree that a hobbit (naturally) couldnt master it, but not because he did not make it, but because he does not know or understand the full extent of it's power. if Frodo had known and understood all the properties of the One Ring, i think that he might have been able to choose to be visible or invisible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Maybe. But another reason why I think he <I>NEVER</I> could've mastered it is something Aragorn said (& I already believed),"...The One Ring answers to Sauron alone, It has no other master!" I believe that ONLY Sauron could ever command or master the Ring. But perhaps that's just me, I don't know.

07-24-2003, 12:28 PM	#16
Nehani Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Mirkwood (or something like it) Posts: 80	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The One Ring answers to Sauron alone, It has no other master <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree. That's how I always thought of it. I think that Sauron can cantrol it because he made it and masters it, so it would make sense if he didn't turn invisible. But hat's just me!<P>Nehani of the Forests __________________ "Been A Long Road To Follow, Been There And Gone Tomorrow Without Saying Goodbye To Yesterday..." "The Way Is Closed. It Was Made By Those Who are Dead. The Way is Closed."

07-28-2003, 05:55 PM	#17
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 3,025	Nehani: Maybe it's just you AND me. But I think we've also ot a ton of other people on our side that just haven't voiced it yet...

07-28-2003, 07:30 PM	#18
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	I agree with Saucepan. There are more indepth discussions on this in the books forum. There are many more tidbits in the books that shed light on this.<P>Definately the Ring effects different beings differently. Tom Bombadil also did not go invisible when he put on The Ring. I think the mortality of the wearer factors into it as well, but I would have to search for evidence to back this up. Unfortunately, I don't have copies of the book with me.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

07-28-2003, 09:29 PM	#19
Genevieve Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Where am I? Huh? I'm lost! Posts: 50	I agree with Nehani and The Only Real Estel, that Sauron made it and therefore can control it. I think Sauron has more control over the ring than the ring has over him. That's what I think.<P>-Genevieve __________________ No thought was put into this I always knew it would come to this. Things have never been so swell I have never failed to feel Pain.