Do Elves have Magic?

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

I don't think elves had magic, but what about when Beren and Luthien went to Angbad and she disguised herself as Thuringwethel? (did I spell that right?) And didn't Beren transform himself into something? But he's not even an elf, so that just really confuses me. (It's been a couple of months since I last read the Silmarillion, if you can't tell! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

I always wondered about that too. I came to the conclusion that Luthien could perform magic because she was half Maia. *shrugs* I might be wrong.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Yeah that's what I'm sticking to also!

[Orome]

they do have "power", particularly the ones who lived in Aman, and the ones from the first age. I dont know if this power is what you would call "magic". Remember Glorfindel at the Ford of Bruinen and then in Rivendell, where Gandalf said that there is great power in the Royal houses.

[O'Boile]

I read a letter from Tolkein a while back, and it said that there were two different types of magic. Regular magic that is performed by the Valar and Maiar, and elvish magic which more resembles art as apposed to the traditional type. The bad guys also perform magic (they are Valar or Maiar), but it is fundamentaly different than elvish magic. That is why Galadriel is confused by what Sam calls magic (she wonders why the devices of the enemy are called the same name as her 'magic').

[akhtene]

I believe elven 'magic' was based on profound knowledge of lore and natural laws. And this probably included the ability to influence living beings. I don't think Luthien really turned herself and Beren into something different from what they were. To my mind it could be sone sort of a hypnosis, when the enemies just saw what Luthien wanted them to see, something (or someones) they expected to see in their stronghold.

[greywind]

I think elves had magic in the meaning "light". They had the power to chase away "dark" magic, at least the lesser dark. There was light in their faces and eyes, especially in thoses who went to Aman and not yet where weary of the sorrows and griefs of Middle-earth.

What this "light" and "dark" magic was, i cannot possible tell! This is fantasy world, and i do not think similar things appears in real life, unless you really want it to accour.

But the "dark magic" (like the ringwraiths had...) caused terrible fear, the elvish kind must be opposite! And it certainly is!

"The devises of the Enemy" is not what i here mean by "dark magic"... it seems to me that evil also had two kinds of magic, both "sorcery" and "put fear".

[Lila Bramble]

Yes, it is proclaimed in the books that elfs have magic, like few Mirkwood have forest magic, almost they're so close to the elements they have slight control of elemtal magic. Well, that's what I think, anyway.

[greywind]

Delay my last, good folks! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

It is said in "Of Beren and Lùthien" that the people of Nargothrond protected their kingdom with "wizardry and vonomed darts", and in the same chapter it is also clear that Lùthien had great powers of the kind that resembles art.

I think Tolkien meant that "elvish magic" was magic that could not change anything in reality, only change what you perceived... the other magic that the Valar and Maiar used did actual changes.

Whether the Valar/Maiar magic was good or not depended if the Valar/Maiar was so, and i think it is the same thing for "elvish magic", though it should have another name then...

So, this "put fear on folks" and opposite, cannot be called magic... rather powers.

So, you have the two kinds of magic, both good and bad, and in addition just "powers"... also both good and bad.

That is what i think.

[Nimiriel]

Well its clear that elves has magic powers (or just powers if yoi want it that way) if you remember the Hobbit. When tha dwarves or Bilbo stepped into the woodelves cirkles then magically all light were put out and the intruder was unconcious for a while. It was also the elves who started making magic rings, so they must have magic powers

[Ancalagon'sFire]

Having used his arts to disguise the party into the image of Orcs, Felagund, having been snared by Sauron entered into battle with him;

For Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power, and the power of the King was very great; but Sauron had the mastery, as is told in the Lay of Leithian:

He chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying,
Sang in a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and shifting shape,
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps.
Backwards and forwards swayed their song.
Reeling foundering, as ever more strong
The chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
And all the magic and might he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words.
Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
Singing afar in Nargothrond,
The sighting of the Sea beyond,
Beyond the western world, on sand,
On sand of pearls on Elvenland.
Then in the doom gathered; darkness growing
In Valinor, the red blood flowing
Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew
The Foamriders, and stealing drew
Their white ships with their white sails
From lamplit havens. The wind wails,
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn.
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn-
And Finrod fell before the throne.

The Silmarillion - The Lay of Leithian

[Catherine]

I think elves have magical powers. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[O'Boile]

Greywind... good post. I agree with everything you said.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

I basically agree with what everyone said. Thanks everyone for posting!
In other words, to one post- Elves don't necessarily have 'magic' but they're powers blend in with nature and they change their surroundings to 'trick' others. They slightly alter it. (talking about the elves of Mirkwood here [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

[Rimbaud]

The First Elves, especially those of the Vanyar and Noldor, were a very different prospect than the Elves we meet in Lord of the Rings. Those Elves were closer in stature to the Maiar and Valar and indeed the two races I spoke of dwelt among them in Valinor. The extent of their powers is unclear. However, Fëanor gave a few Balrogs a good fight, Fingolfin battled Melkor (most powerful of all the Valar) and wounded him severely. Even the Moriquendi in those years had powers above those of Third Age Elves. For instance Eol, the Dark Elf of Nan Elmoth lays enchantments upon Eredhel so that she cannot find her way out of the woods. Third Age Elves had some degree of 'magical' ability but not comparable. Of course the Eldar Elves among them, ie Galadriel, still carried the same powers.

[Orome]

I guess it all depends on how you define magic.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

That's a good point!

[Caradhras]

Hey~
Yeah was always wondering if the had magic !!! Laters~!