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03-03-2007, 03:11 AM | #1 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Seems Like Someone's Rooting for the Wrong Side
LOTR, Sil, etc. are great books which tell tales of hope, combat, and most importantly of all are entertaining. The main characters, who support the good side of life, range from Frodo to Fingolfin. Though the majority of the tales are quite "black and white", Tolkien never fails to tell a grand story.
However, after reading the books and observing the Professor's letters, there is an odd group of fans that stand out. It appears as if they cast aside any message the works of Tolkien are made to tell, and key points are forgotten. To put it in short: These people like/root for the bad guys. In all honesty, this makes no sense whatsoever. As displayed numerous times, the orcs and such beasts are nasty, intolerant, lack honor, and are excessively violent. Morgoth was selfish and bent on ruining the lives of those who were happy and did no wrongs. Sauron was exactly like Morgoth, except bent on ruling them (and dumber, in my opinion.) Mordor and Angband were savage wastelands, and no effort was made to improve them. On the other side of the spectrum, the men of Middle-Earth are kind, wise, and less narrow-minded. The elves are gentle and respectful. The hobbits are an ideal race who are peaceful, content with life and one with nature. They are all living harmless, happy lives. With care, their lands are lovely. So, why do people root for and like the forces of evil? It seems like a lost cause. As a closing and powerful note, I have a message written by a former fan of Darkness which drives the point home. Quote:
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains Last edited by The 1,000 Reader; 03-03-2007 at 03:17 AM. Reason: Quote contained foul language. |
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03-03-2007, 04:34 AM | #2 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Natural rebels? The sterility of absolute goodness - I am thinking a little of Blake and his resentment of the stifling effect of tradition and the establishment (of course for Blake Orc is a positive figure.
Villains can be more attractive than heroes, especially perhaps to adolescents who are going through a rebellious phase anyway. While I think rooting for Sauron would be a bit sinister, there are lots of Sarumans in the modern world - he would have fitted in quite nicely with the "Greed is Good" culture of the 80's. In fact he may well have been reincarnated as Gordon Gekko. Also, Middle Earth isn't so black and white (and is a lot more interesting when it is not so). The LOTR is the closest to being black and white and even there those who are good often have to break the rules to "do the right thing" (Faramir, Eomer, Eowyn, Beregond...), Boromir and Denethor are not faultless but they are not evil. The Silmarillion is packed with characters who fought Morgoth but were not "pure white". Feanor for a start is hardly a gentle and respectful elf.... yet noone could have hated Morgoth more. He like Thingol and Turgon could be accused of selfishness. Personally I find Luthien incredibly selfish since she is only does anything when motivated by her own interest.... Basically a character who is all white is as interesting as a blank piece of paper...
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But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.
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03-03-2007, 05:52 AM | #3 | |
Eagle of the Star
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03-03-2007, 06:07 AM | #4 |
A Mere Boggart
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People root for them because they can. It's a book. You can do what you want with it. It's not the law. So you can like which ever characters you want to like.
I wouldn't say I root for the bad guys, but they are certainly fascinating and they have to be or a piece of literature would cease to be literature and would just become worthless pap. Can you imagine how interminably boring a novel of over 1,000 pages would be if it was just whimsical doings of Hobbits or Elves being nice to one another? It would be truly vomit worthy. And Tolkien gives us characters who are flawed on both sides, characters who are interesting and complex, like Gollum and Saruman. If he'd just written a black and white novel then it would be rubbish, like some cruddy simplistic 'sword and sorcery' nonsense. Instead he gives us subtlety, shade and light. I don't care how bad Saruman is. He is a fantastic and utterly fascinating character, more so than some of the Elves who can come across as boring prigs. Thankfully Tolkien gives plenty of page time to his more complex creations. The Shire, Mordor, Angband, Rivendell etc don't exist, so questions over whether I'd rather live in one of them more than another are irrelevant, because to put it bluntly, I WON'T ever live in any of them, I will always live on Planet Earth. Neither Eru nor Morgoth exist nor ever did exist nor ever will, so I can like who I want to like. In short. There isn't a wrong side, because these are just characters in a book.
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03-03-2007, 08:42 AM | #5 | ||
Eagle of the Star
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
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03-03-2007, 02:05 PM | #6 | |||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains Last edited by The 1,000 Reader; 03-03-2007 at 02:08 PM. |
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03-04-2007, 05:56 AM | #7 | |
A Mere Boggart
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There are some Downers who happen to love Orcs, think Melkor is ace and have crushes on Grima. So what? They aren't wrong, but it's definitely wrong to say they are wrong for that as it's a free choice.
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03-04-2007, 06:02 AM | #8 |
Shadowed Prince
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To those who says Middle-Earth isn't black and white - look at orcs. Do they have any chance of repentance? They're an entire race doomed to evil.
I find this unfair. When I was younger, I set about writing a story that basically mirrored LotR, with a few changes. One of these was the repentance of those created by evil. Though I've never supported the evil side, it's interesting - not weird, to me - that people do. Remember that good and evil are relative concepts. The elves were doomed to hate orcs and try to wipe them out. The orcs were doomed to hate elves and try to wipe them out. To the orcs, the Elves must have appeared as evil aggressors. Supporting them is entirely fair. On a character basis, we have some grey. But on a racial basis, we have white and black in the Elves and Orcs. All you have to do is press a button to invert the colours. |
03-04-2007, 06:18 AM | #9 |
A Mere Boggart
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The other thing is, these characters are nice and safe in a book so we're able to enjoy the bad guys to the full if we like - they aren't real so we can freely imagine what it would be like to be them, it's fun! Who hasn't dressed up on Halloween or for a fancy dress party as something a bit scary? We like thrills and chills as they're just exciting.
Quite ironic really that when you see kids fighting and causing trouble, it's never the Goths who are fond of 'unwholesome' doomy gloomy stuff, it's the supposedly 'ordinary' lads who like the 'wholesome' things like Football who are busy beating each other up in the pub. Some people are frightened of things a bit different to the 'norm' whereas others aren't.
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03-04-2007, 10:02 AM | #10 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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I think Tolkien kind of 'assumes' the reader will feel more drawn to the 'good' side. In an interview he spoke of the underlying morality of the world he created:
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It is this 'natural morality' that Tolkien plays on - he assumes the reader will be drawn to the good side not because they are made more 'attractive' & exciting, but because whether the reader is 'religious' or not they will be, by their nature, more attracted by the good side - in fact, their behaviour will actually seem more 'natural' to the reader than the behaviour of the bad side. Hence, anyone who is attracted by the bad side is (according to the theory Tolkien espoused) is going against their own natural inclinations. Of course, Tolkien could have been wrong.
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Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 03-04-2007 at 10:08 AM. |
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03-04-2007, 11:13 AM | #11 | |
Pilgrim Soul
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She did that in order to get her beloved ie self interest. It is a similar situation to some of my friends who think they are martyrs becasue their lives revolve around their children. As far as the rest of the world goes they are incredibly selfish..... But this is off topic - you don't have tosearch far to find more of my opinions on Luthien.
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But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.
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03-04-2007, 03:37 PM | #12 |
Wight
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Maybe because they don't understand the good side? Or because.... they have nothing in common with the good side and root for the bad side instead? Because it just seems that the good guys are helplessly good? (they're not) or maybe cuz the bad guys seem to be freer? (they're not) Or because..... the good side is so so soooo far away from them.... they desparately want to be in the good side but it seems that they wouldn't fit in there?
*sigh* I'll say.... there's the good side, and the bad side. There's a clear difference between both of them. Would you be a mindless slaying creature or someone that fights for the good of Middle Earth, for those that he/she loves.... If it was selfishness for Luthien, then we're all selfish. |
03-04-2007, 03:48 PM | #13 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains |
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03-04-2007, 04:20 PM | #14 | |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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In any case, I feel (as a card-carrying member of the "I Heart the Witch-King" Fan Club) that I can at least speak for myself, and just maybe, some of the "evil-lovers" out there. Or not. Evil is an exciting element. It allows one to be put into a mindset that is apart from, and yet similar to, that of Good. It can be quite enthralling. And so, to cheer for the vile is to cheer for the hopelessly doomed to defeat. It's fun to watch that downfall. There's not much suspense (as you may be able to guess quite well how the Enemy always causes its own end), but you can still sit back and watch the fireworks. Looking at things from the side of Good, the "miraculous" nature of every victory is always a bother. There are, of course, more reasons. But I feel this one is enough. |
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03-04-2007, 04:55 PM | #15 | |
Cryptic Aura
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If people have a natural inclination to the good side, as Tolkien assumes, what causes the long defeat--why doesn't this natural inclination result in victory rather than defeat? Is there an inherent fallibility which limits this natural inclination? Or is evil stronger than good? In the mythology, Middle earth is inherently flawed. How does this attitude towards an innate goodness fit in with this idea? Just pondering these points out of idle curiosity.
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Ill sing his roots off. Ill sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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03-04-2007, 05:08 PM | #16 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Yet possibly this comes back to the different creation myths - the primary world was created 'good' & fell post creation, while the secondary world was created with Melkor's 'flaws' inherent in it. So the reader is reading about an 'alien' world in which the 'natural morality' which holds in our world does not hold in that world. The inhabitants of M-e, it seems, do not have such a 'natural morality' - which seems to mean that when they make choices in conformity with our 'natural morality' they are making an unnatural choice. So one could argue that such choices are more difficult for them than they would be for us...... Unless....but... what I mean to say is.....er.... |
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03-04-2007, 07:32 PM | #17 |
Wight
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But for me, it's kind of sad watching something go down the pit. From the thing it once was, to the creature it became. It's rather saddening, that people are capable of such evil.... not just orcs.
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03-05-2007, 07:15 AM | #18 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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But do you really know anyone who follows the dark forces of Tolkien's work to that extent? I don't, and I've been a fan since the early 80s - any Orcs fans I know treat is purely as fun. Most of the borderline obsessives are fans of Elves or Hobbits. Quote:
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03-05-2007, 08:38 AM | #19 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
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We must all bow down and worship Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, because remember, darkness itself is worshipful.
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As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. Last edited by hewhoarisesinmight; 03-05-2007 at 08:45 AM. |
03-05-2007, 09:14 AM | #20 | |||
Eagle of the Star
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." Last edited by Raynor; 03-05-2007 at 09:20 AM. |
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03-05-2007, 09:38 AM | #21 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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Actually, I rather like the idea that Tolkien chose to make goodness dramatically exciting, althought I'm not sure he ever stated this explicitly. He chose to set himself an artistic challenge and not make evil aesthetically attractive--quite a turnaround from most literature! He focussed upon the actions and choices and emotions of his heroes and doesn't in much way make Saruman or Gollem in any way someone we would want to emulate or be. Who of us would like to be in Gollem's shoes--or rather, walk with his bruised and torn and cut bare feet? Not many I wager. (I could of course be wrong about this.) Did Tolkien learn a lesson from Milton in particular?
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Ill sing his roots off. Ill sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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03-05-2007, 10:13 AM | #22 | |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
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As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. |
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03-05-2007, 10:22 AM | #23 | |
Pilgrim Soul
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Err you do realise that it is a work of fiction?
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But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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03-05-2007, 10:29 AM | #24 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
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What???? You mean I built this sacrificial temple in my back garden for nothing! Don't worry, I only burned a few twigs and PE teachers in it...
Anyway to go back to the topic at hand, I find it more interesting and 3D if you read the books as the Morgoth's advocate. I mean he was the only one showing a bit of independence and free thinking in the music of Arda, usually things people are praised for. On a side note, is it true that some Russian guy rewrote Lord of the Rings from the 'enemies' view point. If so I'd be interested in reading this...
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As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. Last edited by hewhoarisesinmight; 03-05-2007 at 10:33 AM. |
03-05-2007, 04:20 PM | #25 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Hey, you do understand that Morgoth was a selfish jerk who only cared for himself, wanted everybody dead, and was the creator of oppression, torture, and the places he created were proof that he had nobody's best interests in mind, right?
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains |
03-05-2007, 08:20 PM | #26 | |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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Now, I do understand that Morgoth is all of the above. But he is also the most individual of all the Valar. He rebelled wanting to be his own "person", to create beings all his own. Who hasn't wanted something like that at some point in their lives? You can relate to Morgoth's desires to a degree. He just happens to be the very extreme of the spectrum. At least, that's my take on Morgoth. |
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03-05-2007, 08:43 PM | #27 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Yes, I admit that he can be related to, but in the end he is a sick man. I have no problem with people finding some relation in Morgoth or thinking that Nazgul on Fell Beasts look awesome, but when people do not ultimately accept or see the forces of darkness as the horrors they are when all is said and done, that is what confuses me. Sure, an army of trolls or a eye of fire can seem cool, but when you totally lose the point of the book and see the evil as the way to live, that's rather messed up, and that's what the thread's about.
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains |
03-05-2007, 08:48 PM | #28 | |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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Edit: Mind the fact that you don't get a great impression of how evil actually lives in LOTR. Also, forget the sociopaths. |
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03-06-2007, 01:59 AM | #29 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I've seen some odd fans. They aren't really turned evil, but the certainly would seem to give you the impression. They don't seem to know when the "play" ends. I've never seen this behavior in "fans of good." Overall though, I didn't mean for this thread to be almost entirely focused on the oddest of fans, I just wanted to know why some fans of the darkness never seemed to acknowledge, even for a second, that the bad guys were ultimately the ones who were wrong and nasty. Like I said, the Nazgul are cool, but I still know that in the end they were heartless murderers.
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains Last edited by The 1,000 Reader; 03-06-2007 at 02:04 AM. |
03-06-2007, 06:51 AM | #30 | |
A Mere Boggart
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Fact is, a lot of young people like Tolkien's work for the adventure and the thrills and the monsters and the sword fighting, and that's not 'wrong', and put that together with the interest a lot of young people also have in being alternative and trying different things ( from growing your hair long to dabbling in magic - it can cover just about anything) and some will want to play act that Sauron and Orcs really existed. So long as you don't start actually living full time as an Orc or a Hobbit then you're just a fan responding to the work, that's all. People do know that the Orcs were nasty, but they still find them interesting. And anyway, it's so easy to wind up young, idealistic Elf-heads by pretending to be a Minion...and it can be great fun too.... What do you think of vampires?
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03-06-2007, 07:23 AM | #31 | |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
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Does anyone actually read Lord of the Rings and thinks 'hey let's try and raise an army of orcs and try and take over the whole world'? This reminds of all that crap about Harry Potter being the antichrist.
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03-06-2007, 02:09 PM | #32 |
Spectre of Capitalism
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Resistance is futile
...I...<grrr>...will...not...<oomph>...post...on.. <aiiii!!>...this...thread...
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The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. ~~ Marcus Aurelius |
03-06-2007, 10:08 PM | #33 | ||||||||||||
Spectre of Capitalism
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So much for willpower
Forgive me for catching up on replies to 30 posts in one.
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The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. ~~ Marcus Aurelius |
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03-07-2007, 05:16 AM | #34 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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This also gives me the advantage of being able to distinguish a fictional character from a real one. If people who cannot do that wish to judge me for it, then it's not my problem but theirs. Far too many people judge by appearances I'm afraid. As indeed people judge Goths. Yet in comparison to the herd mentality of most young people you could not hope to meet a bunch of more creative, interesting, intellectual, thoughtful people. I hope to have a young Goth (or similar ) child one day . And I'm afraid a large contingent of Tolkien fans, including members of this very board, are kids and adults just like that. We are not all cuddly, fluffy little good girls who sit with our hands neatly folded on our laps. Some of us indeed might be pinko commies, gays, ethnic minorities or 'satanic' atheists and pagans. Personally I don't really care what a person is, it certainly does not make them wrong. Quote:
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03-07-2007, 07:44 AM | #35 | |
Eagle of the Star
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
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03-07-2007, 08:39 AM | #36 | |
A Mere Boggart
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If we took things to that extreme we'd be telling kids that Doctor Who was evil because he is a Time Lord and it refutes scriptures. Or that they shouldn't read the Wind In The Willows because talking, sentient animals are pagan. Or that they shouldn't listen to Motorhead as it might make you gay (as one notoriously silly website claims). In fact many people claim nobody should read Tolkien because it encourages witchcraft. They should get a life.
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03-07-2007, 10:45 AM | #37 | |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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~*~ Now, I have a thought I'd like to share. In reading over the posts on this thread, it seems to me that few are actually trying to answer the question The 1,000 Reader first posed (and this includes him). Rather, I think a good portion of the posts are not discussing why people might like the bad guys, but actually seem to be criticizing those people for liking the bad guys (i.e. the questioning of morality, etc). Exploring the attraction of the bad guys is one thing, but maligning the people who like them is entirely a different matter. I think the direction and tone of the thread needs a change, then, if this is the case. |
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03-07-2007, 11:50 AM | #38 | ||||
Shadowed Prince
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The argument that orcs are evil is similar to labelling the mentally ill as evil. They don't choose to hear voices commanding them to murder. They are doomed to it. Melkor and the fallen Maiar and Valar may be evil by intent, but not the orcs and the trolls. They are victims as much as the Elves and Men. Quote:
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Last edited by the guy who be short; 03-07-2007 at 11:51 AM. Reason: number agreement |
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03-07-2007, 11:52 AM | #39 | ||
Eagle of the Star
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Concerning your first example, Tolkien is a foremost defender of the idea that fairy-tales and religion are not mutually exclusive - quite the contrary.
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
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03-07-2007, 12:07 PM | #40 | ||
Spectre of Capitalism
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And Lalwende, I note that you did not address the fundamental logical fallacies in your post which I pointed out. Quote:
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The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. ~~ Marcus Aurelius |
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