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Old 03-03-2007, 03:11 AM   #1
The 1,000 Reader
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Seems Like Someone's Rooting for the Wrong Side

LOTR, Sil, etc. are great books which tell tales of hope, combat, and most importantly of all are entertaining. The main characters, who support the good side of life, range from Frodo to Fingolfin. Though the majority of the tales are quite "black and white", Tolkien never fails to tell a grand story.

However, after reading the books and observing the Professor's letters, there is an odd group of fans that stand out. It appears as if they cast aside any message the works of Tolkien are made to tell, and key points are forgotten. To put it in short:

These people like/root for the bad guys.

In all honesty, this makes no sense whatsoever. As displayed numerous times, the orcs and such beasts are nasty, intolerant, lack honor, and are excessively violent. Morgoth was selfish and bent on ruining the lives of those who were happy and did no wrongs. Sauron was exactly like Morgoth, except bent on ruling them (and dumber, in my opinion.) Mordor and Angband were savage wastelands, and no effort was made to improve them.

On the other side of the spectrum, the men of Middle-Earth are kind, wise, and less narrow-minded. The elves are gentle and respectful. The hobbits are an ideal race who are peaceful, content with life and one with nature. They are all living harmless, happy lives. With care, their lands are lovely.

So, why do people root for and like the forces of evil? It seems like a lost cause. As a closing and powerful note, I have a message written by a former fan of Darkness which drives the point home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Second of the Nine
I used to be a rabid supporter of Melkor and Sauron and their ilk, but not anymore. Why? Mainly because they were a lot of selfish ********.

Let's go back to Melkor's theme. Now, once I would have said this was a grand expression of creativity; Melkor was putting his rights of sub-creation to the test, being true to himself and not a slave. But really, playing that theme was just plain wrong. Let's think: creator vs. creation, who knows better? Now as much as you want to romanticise his rebellion, the fact of the matter remains plain: Melkor's will have mistakes in it while Eru's will not; or, assuming Eru is not perfect but only very powerful, it will logically have fewer mistakes because of his higher position.

Then, let's look at the results: Valinor vs. Utumno/Angband. Where would you rather live, honestly? Honestly now. We have our fun on this board talking about Elf-roasts and whatnot, but in all seriousness the realms of darkness were not nice places. They were filled with violence, filth, destruction and degradation. Where would you rather live, the Shire or Mordor? The Shire is a lovely place filled with kind folk who enjoy nothing more than eating and giving one another presents. Mordor is a militaristic society that runs on slave labor and is ruled by a megalomaniac.

The point of the above comparison is, who REALLY had a better plan for the world? The followers of Eru, or the followers of Melkor? His "rights" to follow his own plan notwithstanding, Melkor was a bloody evil idiot who, judging from the sort of places he produced, could not possibly have had anyone's best interests in mind, and he should have just sat down, shut up and played along with the rest.
So, why do certain readers find themselves supporting the evils of Tolkien's world?
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Old 03-03-2007, 04:34 AM   #2
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Natural rebels? The sterility of absolute goodness - I am thinking a little of Blake and his resentment of the stifling effect of tradition and the establishment (of course for Blake Orc is a positive figure.

Villains can be more attractive than heroes, especially perhaps to adolescents who are going through a rebellious phase anyway.

While I think rooting for Sauron would be a bit sinister, there are lots of Sarumans in the modern world - he would have fitted in quite nicely with the "Greed is Good" culture of the 80's. In fact he may well have been reincarnated as Gordon Gekko.

Also, Middle Earth isn't so black and white (and is a lot more interesting when it is not so). The LOTR is the closest to being black and white and even there those who are good often have to break the rules to "do the right thing" (Faramir, Eomer, Eowyn, Beregond...), Boromir and Denethor are not faultless but they are not evil.

The Silmarillion is packed with characters who fought Morgoth but were not "pure white". Feanor for a start is hardly a gentle and respectful elf.... yet noone could have hated Morgoth more. He like Thingol and Turgon could be accused of selfishness. Personally I find Luthien incredibly selfish since she is only does anything when motivated by her own interest....

Basically a character who is all white is as interesting as a blank piece of paper...
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Old 03-03-2007, 05:52 AM   #3
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Personally I find Luthien incredibly selfish since she is only does anything when motivated by her own interest....
How come you consider her selfish, and acting in self interest only, when she gave up her family, royal status, freedom, immortality and risked her life for her beloved? I don't deny there is satisfaction in love, but that in itself hardly amounts to selfishness, esspecially when one sacrifices everything for love.
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Old 03-03-2007, 06:07 AM   #4
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People root for them because they can. It's a book. You can do what you want with it. It's not the law. So you can like which ever characters you want to like.

I wouldn't say I root for the bad guys, but they are certainly fascinating and they have to be or a piece of literature would cease to be literature and would just become worthless pap. Can you imagine how interminably boring a novel of over 1,000 pages would be if it was just whimsical doings of Hobbits or Elves being nice to one another? It would be truly vomit worthy.

And Tolkien gives us characters who are flawed on both sides, characters who are interesting and complex, like Gollum and Saruman. If he'd just written a black and white novel then it would be rubbish, like some cruddy simplistic 'sword and sorcery' nonsense. Instead he gives us subtlety, shade and light.

I don't care how bad Saruman is. He is a fantastic and utterly fascinating character, more so than some of the Elves who can come across as boring prigs. Thankfully Tolkien gives plenty of page time to his more complex creations. The Shire, Mordor, Angband, Rivendell etc don't exist, so questions over whether I'd rather live in one of them more than another are irrelevant, because to put it bluntly, I WON'T ever live in any of them, I will always live on Planet Earth. Neither Eru nor Morgoth exist nor ever did exist nor ever will, so I can like who I want to like.

In short. There isn't a wrong side, because these are just characters in a book.
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Old 03-03-2007, 08:42 AM   #5
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the bad guys, but they are certainly fascinating and they have to be or a piece of literature would cease to be literature and would just become worthless pap
I don't think that literature dealing with overcoming one's shortcomings, fears, or with finding purpose or inspiration, or actualising an ideal is worthless. And such subjects don't require bad guys.
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The Shire, Mordor, Angband, Rivendell etc don't exist, so questions over whether I'd rather live in one of them more than another are irrelevant
...
In short. There isn't a wrong side, because these are just characters in a book.
(To avoid any misunderstandings, I am talking strictly on the general level; nothing I say is directed at any person in particular; I am talking ideas not individuals.) But doesn't being moral mean chosing good not evil in every situation? Can a person chose evil and not good in a situation and claim that he/she is still moral because said choice could never come into materialisation? Doesn't intention in fact define morality, moreso than the materialisation of intention? Isn't this an instance of hypocrisy?
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Old 03-03-2007, 02:05 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithalwen
Villains can be more attractive than heroes, especially perhaps to adolescents who are going through a rebellious phase anyway.
I know, yet the fans in question are hateful of the lively, peaceful hobbits. It's as if they were reading a completely different book. They see Frodo as garbage and Sam as an idiot, not to mention a horrid hate for Gandalf. They are not rebellious teens: a good deal of them are middle-aged folk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithalwen
While I think rooting for Sauron would be a bit sinister, there are lots of Sarumans in the modern world - he would have fitted in quite nicely with the "Greed is Good" culture of the 80's. In fact he may well have been reincarnated as Gordon Gekko.
Saruman was in fact a good villain, as well as Gollum, yet the fans the thread is referring to seem to forget that these fellows, despite their dynamics, were evil in the end. Yes, they can be liked as characters, but when Tolkien fans start treating them like the Messiah, that's not right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithalwen
Also, Middle Earth isn't so black and white (and is a lot more interesting when it is not so). The LOTR is the closest to being black and white and even there those who are good often have to break the rules to "do the right thing" (Faramir, Eomer, Eowyn, Beregond...), Boromir and Denethor are not faultless but they are not evil.
Yes, the good guys aren't perfect, but in a way that makes the arguement stronger. The good guys of Middle-Earth are not the typical one-dimensional characters: they are like real people. On the other hand, the orcs and their ilk are just bland, hateful monsters. It is also diversity that makes Saruman and Gollum stand-out villains.

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Originally Posted by Mithalwen
The Silmarillion is packed with characters who fought Morgoth but were not "pure white". Feanor for a start is hardly a gentle and respectful elf.... yet noone could have hated Morgoth more. He like Thingol and Turgon could be accused of selfishness. Personally I find Luthien incredibly selfish since she is only does anything when motivated by her own interest....
That is true as well, but only goes to show that the good forces of Middle-Earth are realistic and not the standard "goody-two-shoes". Not only are they trying to preserve all that is good and happy in the world, they're real people in a sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithalwen
Basically a character who is all white is as interesting as a blank piece of paper...
I am of that same mindset, yet the heroes of Middle-Earth are not all white or in a similar catagory. That is why I don't understand why anybody supports the evil side to such a major degree: the better motive, the development and emotion, all of that is with the side of good.
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Old 03-04-2007, 05:56 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader
Saruman was in fact a good villain, as well as Gollum, yet the fans the thread is referring to seem to forget that these fellows, despite their dynamics, were evil in the end. Yes, they can be liked as characters, but when Tolkien fans start treating them like the Messiah, that's not right.
Seriously, why isn't it 'right'? Right and wrong don't come into it when thinking about a book as you're free to enjoy the characters in whatever way you like. Remember Tolkien's work is not scripture, it's literature, it's Art. Even if it were scripture (which I think some people think it is for some reason) you're still free to treat it in any way you like.

There are some Downers who happen to love Orcs, think Melkor is ace and have crushes on Grima. So what? They aren't wrong, but it's definitely wrong to say they are wrong for that as it's a free choice.
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Old 03-04-2007, 06:02 AM   #8
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To those who says Middle-Earth isn't black and white - look at orcs. Do they have any chance of repentance? They're an entire race doomed to evil.

I find this unfair. When I was younger, I set about writing a story that basically mirrored LotR, with a few changes. One of these was the repentance of those created by evil.

Though I've never supported the evil side, it's interesting - not weird, to me - that people do. Remember that good and evil are relative concepts. The elves were doomed to hate orcs and try to wipe them out. The orcs were doomed to hate elves and try to wipe them out. To the orcs, the Elves must have appeared as evil aggressors. Supporting them is entirely fair.

On a character basis, we have some grey. But on a racial basis, we have white and black in the Elves and Orcs. All you have to do is press a button to invert the colours.
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Old 03-04-2007, 06:18 AM   #9
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The other thing is, these characters are nice and safe in a book so we're able to enjoy the bad guys to the full if we like - they aren't real so we can freely imagine what it would be like to be them, it's fun! Who hasn't dressed up on Halloween or for a fancy dress party as something a bit scary? We like thrills and chills as they're just exciting.

Quite ironic really that when you see kids fighting and causing trouble, it's never the Goths who are fond of 'unwholesome' doomy gloomy stuff, it's the supposedly 'ordinary' lads who like the 'wholesome' things like Football who are busy beating each other up in the pub.

Some people are frightened of things a bit different to the 'norm' whereas others aren't.
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Old 03-04-2007, 10:02 AM   #10
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I think Tolkien kind of 'assumes' the reader will feel more drawn to the 'good' side. In an interview he spoke of the underlying morality of the world he created:

Quote:
Did this alternative creation worry Tolkien, a lifetime Roman Catholic? It did not seem to. I had remarked to him once that, despite the absence of organised religion in his mythical world - no priests, no temples - his peoples still behaved well. Yes, of course, he said, there was "what theologians call natural morality, natural duties and courtesies - ".
So Tolkien assumes that attitudes which are often held up as part of the 'Christian' underpinning of his creation are in fact anything but - they are the result of 'natural morality, natural duties & courtesies - when a man refuses to strike an enemy when he's down, that sort of thing'.

It is this 'natural morality' that Tolkien plays on - he assumes the reader will be drawn to the good side not because they are made more 'attractive' & exciting, but because whether the reader is 'religious' or not they will be, by their nature, more attracted by the good side - in fact, their behaviour will actually seem more 'natural' to the reader than the behaviour of the bad side.

Hence, anyone who is attracted by the bad side is (according to the theory Tolkien espoused) is going against their own natural inclinations.

Of course, Tolkien could have been wrong.

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Old 03-04-2007, 11:13 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
How come you consider her selfish, and acting in self interest only, when she gave up her family, royal status, freedom, immortality and risked her life for her beloved? I don't deny there is satisfaction in love, but that in itself hardly amounts to selfishness, esspecially when one sacrifices everything for love.

She did that in order to get her beloved ie self interest. It is a similar situation to some of my friends who think they are martyrs becasue their lives revolve around their children. As far as the rest of the world goes they are incredibly selfish..... But this is off topic - you don't have tosearch far to find more of my opinions on Luthien.
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Old 03-04-2007, 03:37 PM   #12
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Maybe because they don't understand the good side? Or because.... they have nothing in common with the good side and root for the bad side instead? Because it just seems that the good guys are helplessly good? (they're not) or maybe cuz the bad guys seem to be freer? (they're not) Or because..... the good side is so so soooo far away from them.... they desparately want to be in the good side but it seems that they wouldn't fit in there?

*sigh* I'll say.... there's the good side, and the bad side. There's a clear difference between both of them. Would you be a mindless slaying creature or someone that fights for the good of Middle Earth, for those that he/she loves....

If it was selfishness for Luthien, then we're all selfish.
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Old 03-04-2007, 03:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendė
Seriously, why isn't it 'right'? Right and wrong don't come into it when thinking about a book as you're free to enjoy the characters in whatever way you like. Remember Tolkien's work is not scripture, it's literature, it's Art. Even if it were scripture (which I think some people think it is for some reason) you're still free to treat it in any way you like.
I meant to a nearly-cultist point. Letting fiction have such a grand effect on your life like that is what's messed up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwende
There are some Downers who happen to love Orcs, think Melkor is ace and have crushes on Grima. So what? They aren't wrong, but it's definitely wrong to say they are wrong for that as it's a free choice.
They aren't hated, but their reasoning is not very fleshed out. In the end, orcs are just rude and brutal animals.
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Old 03-04-2007, 04:20 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader
They aren't hated, but their reasoning is not very fleshed out. In the end, orcs are just rude and brutal animals.
One could say the same of humans.

In any case, I feel (as a card-carrying member of the "I Heart the Witch-King" Fan Club) that I can at least speak for myself, and just maybe, some of the "evil-lovers" out there. Or not.

Evil is an exciting element. It allows one to be put into a mindset that is apart from, and yet similar to, that of Good. It can be quite enthralling. And so, to cheer for the vile is to cheer for the hopelessly doomed to defeat. It's fun to watch that downfall. There's not much suspense (as you may be able to guess quite well how the Enemy always causes its own end), but you can still sit back and watch the fireworks. Looking at things from the side of Good, the "miraculous" nature of every victory is always a bother.

There are, of course, more reasons. But I feel this one is enough.
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Old 03-04-2007, 04:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
I think Tolkien kind of 'assumes' the reader will feel more drawn to the 'good' side.
So Tolkien assumes that attitudes which are often held up as part of the 'Christian' underpinning of his creation are in fact anything but - they are the result of 'natural morality, natural duties & courtesies - when a man refuses to strike an enemy when he's down, that sort of thing'.

It is this 'natural morality' that Tolkien plays on - he assumes the reader will be drawn to the good side not because they are made more 'attractive' & exciting, but because whether the reader is 'religious' or not they will be, by their nature, more attracted by the good side - in fact, their behaviour will actually seem more 'natural' to the reader than the behaviour of the bad side.

Hence, anyone who is attracted by the bad side is (according to the theory Tolkien espoused) is going against their own natural inclinations.

Of course, Tolkien could have been wrong.
It's interesting to consider this in relation to Tolkien's attitude towards the "long defeat."

If people have a natural inclination to the good side, as Tolkien assumes, what causes the long defeat--why doesn't this natural inclination result in victory rather than defeat? Is there an inherent fallibility which limits this natural inclination? Or is evil stronger than good? In the mythology, Middle earth is inherently flawed. How does this attitude towards an innate goodness fit in with this idea?

Just pondering these points out of idle curiosity.
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Old 03-04-2007, 05:08 PM   #16
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It's interesting to consider this in relation to Tolkien's attitude towards the "long defeat."

If people have a natural inclination to the good side, as Tolkien assumes, what causes the long defeat--why doesn't this natural inclination result in victory rather than defeat? Is there an inherent fallibility which limits this natural inclination? Or is evil stronger than good? In the mythology, Middle earth is inherently flawed. How does this attitude towards an innate goodness fit in with this idea?

Just pondering these points out of idle curiosity.
Good point - Tolkien assumes such a 'natural morality' in the reader but not in all the inhabitants of his world - which seems to imply that his secondary world does not operate by the same 'rules' as the primary.

Yet possibly this comes back to the different creation myths - the primary world was created 'good' & fell post creation, while the secondary world was created with Melkor's 'flaws' inherent in it.

So the reader is reading about an 'alien' world in which the 'natural morality' which holds in our world does not hold in that world. The inhabitants of M-e, it seems, do not have such a 'natural morality' - which seems to mean that when they make choices in conformity with our 'natural morality' they are making an unnatural choice. So one could argue that such choices are more difficult for them than they would be for us......

Unless....but... what I mean to say is.....er....
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Old 03-04-2007, 07:32 PM   #17
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But for me, it's kind of sad watching something go down the pit. From the thing it once was, to the creature it became. It's rather saddening, that people are capable of such evil.... not just orcs.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:15 AM   #18
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I meant to a nearly-cultist point. Letting fiction have such a grand effect on your life like that is what's messed up.
Well I'd agree with that! You could say I'm obsessed, in fact if someone who wasn't a fan of Tolkien walked into our house they would start rolling their eyes and muttering about "weird nerds..." or something like that. But there are degrees of obsession. What can be charming and eccentric can quickly become disturbing - such as the woman I used to know who lived as a Klingon (had a Klingon wedding and spoke Klingon at home) who did indeed prove to be delusional as she locked herself and her husband in the cellar with survival supplies (and little hats made of tinfoil) over the Millennium eve...

But do you really know anyone who follows the dark forces of Tolkien's work to that extent? I don't, and I've been a fan since the early 80s - any Orcs fans I know treat is purely as fun. Most of the borderline obsessives are fans of Elves or Hobbits.

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I don't think that literature dealing with overcoming one's shortcomings, fears, or with finding purpose or inspiration, or actualising an ideal is worthless. And such subjects don't require bad guys.
Is there any though? Even if there are no 'bad guys', then there at least 'bad things' to be dealt with. The only literature which approaches that (that I can think of) is some descriptive poetry, e.g. some of Keats' Odes, and this is not lengthy stuff, suggesting it cannot be stomached at great length by the reader or indeed the writer!
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:38 AM   #19
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Old 03-05-2007, 09:14 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by davem
So the reader is reading about an 'alien' world in which the 'natural morality' which holds in our world does not hold in that world. The inhabitants of M-e, it seems, do not have such a 'natural morality' - which seems to mean that when they make choices in conformity with our 'natural morality' they are making an unnatural choice. So one could argue that such choices are more difficult for them than they would be for us.
The question comes that there were at most two humans who experienced 'natural morality', and they live no more, physically. An argument could also be made that even if they experienced it, they didn't act on it - since they became moral (i.e. able to chose right from evil) only after their Fall, a Fall which corrupts them at least morally (as far as I understand Christianity). In any case, no human currently (or ever) knows natural morality. The same as in Middle Earth. Therefore, I believe that comparing both worlds post-Fall is possible and valid.
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Originally Posted by Lal
Even if there are no 'bad guys', then there at least 'bad things' to be dealt with.
You may be right, but I doubt that an evil situations or evil in non-sentient forms could be somehow admired or desired.
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Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight
darkness itself is worshipful.
What do you mean? I doubt you got the right forum .
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Old 03-05-2007, 09:38 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by davem
Good point - Tolkien assumes such a 'natural morality' in the reader but not in all the inhabitants of his world - which seems to imply that his secondary world does not operate by the same 'rules' as the primary.

Yet possibly this comes back to the different creation myths - the primary world was created 'good' & fell post creation, while the secondary world was created with Melkor's 'flaws' inherent in it.

So the reader is reading about an 'alien' world in which the 'natural morality' which holds in our world does not hold in that world. The inhabitants of M-e, it seems, do not have such a 'natural morality' - which seems to mean that when they make choices in conformity with our 'natural morality' they are making an unnatural choice. So one could argue that such choices are more difficult for them than they would be for us......

Unless....but... what I mean to say is.....er....
Well, judging just from the interview you linked to, I can't see where Tolkien assigns this natural morality to readers but not to his secondary world. Of course, one can never completely rely upon newspaper articles, which are so severely pruned by space limitations and subject to their journalists' decisions of what to highlight and whatnot, but that passage leads one to assume that Tolkien assigns natural morality to his sub-created world.

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Did this alternative creation worry Tolkien, a lifetime Roman Catholic? It did not seem to. I had remarked to him once that, despite the absence of organised religion in his mythical world - no priests, no temples - his peoples still behaved well. Yes, of course, he said, there was "what theologians call natural morality, natural duties and courtesies - when a man refuses to strike an enemy when he's down, that sort of thing".

He regarded artistic creativity, including his own, as a gift from God: we are created in the image of our Creator, and our own sub-creations, as he called them, were a pale reflection of that original.
Bolding mine.

Actually, I rather like the idea that Tolkien chose to make goodness dramatically exciting, althought I'm not sure he ever stated this explicitly. He chose to set himself an artistic challenge and not make evil aesthetically attractive--quite a turnaround from most literature! He focussed upon the actions and choices and emotions of his heroes and doesn't in much way make Saruman or Gollem in any way someone we would want to emulate or be. Who of us would like to be in Gollem's shoes--or rather, walk with his bruised and torn and cut bare feet? Not many I wager. (I could of course be wrong about this.)

Did Tolkien learn a lesson from Milton in particular?
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Old 03-05-2007, 10:13 AM   #22
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What do you mean? I doubt you got the right forum
Out of darkness the world was made, and the lord of darkness may yet make other worlds to be gifts to those who serve him, so that the increase of their power shall find no end. That is why we should worship Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom.
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Old 03-05-2007, 10:22 AM   #23
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Out of darkness the world was made, and the lord of darkness may yet make other worlds to be gifts to those who serve him, so that the increase of their power shall find no end. That is why we should worship Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom.

Err you do realise that it is a work of fiction?
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Old 03-05-2007, 10:29 AM   #24
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What???? You mean I built this sacrificial temple in my back garden for nothing! Don't worry, I only burned a few twigs and PE teachers in it...

Anyway to go back to the topic at hand, I find it more interesting and 3D if you read the books as the Morgoth's advocate. I mean he was the only one showing a bit of independence and free thinking in the music of Arda, usually things people are praised for.

On a side note, is it true that some Russian guy rewrote Lord of the Rings from the 'enemies' view point. If so I'd be interested in reading this...
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Old 03-05-2007, 04:20 PM   #25
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Hey, you do understand that Morgoth was a selfish jerk who only cared for himself, wanted everybody dead, and was the creator of oppression, torture, and the places he created were proof that he had nobody's best interests in mind, right?
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:20 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader
Hey, you do understand that Morgoth was a selfish jerk who only cared for himself, wanted everybody dead, and was the creator of oppression, torture, and the places he created were proof that he had nobody's best interests in mind, right?
So what if Morgoth was selfish? Does it really matter that much to you that people may actually, genuinely like him?

Now, I do understand that Morgoth is all of the above. But he is also the most individual of all the Valar. He rebelled wanting to be his own "person", to create beings all his own. Who hasn't wanted something like that at some point in their lives? You can relate to Morgoth's desires to a degree. He just happens to be the very extreme of the spectrum.

At least, that's my take on Morgoth.
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:43 PM   #27
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Yes, I admit that he can be related to, but in the end he is a sick man. I have no problem with people finding some relation in Morgoth or thinking that Nazgul on Fell Beasts look awesome, but when people do not ultimately accept or see the forces of darkness as the horrors they are when all is said and done, that is what confuses me. Sure, an army of trolls or a eye of fire can seem cool, but when you totally lose the point of the book and see the evil as the way to live, that's rather messed up, and that's what the thread's about.
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:48 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader
but when you totally lose the point of the book and see the evil as the way to live, that's rather messed up, and that's what the thread's about.
Who, in reading LOTR, actually sees evil as a way to live?

Edit: Mind the fact that you don't get a great impression of how evil actually lives in LOTR. Also, forget the sociopaths.
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Old 03-06-2007, 01:59 AM   #29
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I've seen some odd fans. They aren't really turned evil, but the certainly would seem to give you the impression. They don't seem to know when the "play" ends. I've never seen this behavior in "fans of good." Overall though, I didn't mean for this thread to be almost entirely focused on the oddest of fans, I just wanted to know why some fans of the darkness never seemed to acknowledge, even for a second, that the bad guys were ultimately the ones who were wrong and nasty. Like I said, the Nazgul are cool, but I still know that in the end they were heartless murderers.
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Old 03-06-2007, 06:51 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader
I've seen some odd fans. They aren't really turned evil, but the certainly would seem to give you the impression. They don't seem to know when the "play" ends. I've never seen this behavior in "fans of good." Overall though, I didn't mean for this thread to be almost entirely focused on the oddest of fans, I just wanted to know why some fans of the darkness never seemed to acknowledge, even for a second, that the bad guys were ultimately the ones who were wrong and nasty. Like I said, the Nazgul are cool, but I still know that in the end they were heartless murderers.
Would it matter if they were 'evil'? Evil's a value judgement at heart - if someone is being cruel to animals or children or exercising psychological torment and threats on people then that's evil behaviour. But as for some kids mucking around in robes and thinking they're going to summon up a manifestation of Sauron or something - well it's just not going to happen, so leave them to their play-acting.

Fact is, a lot of young people like Tolkien's work for the adventure and the thrills and the monsters and the sword fighting, and that's not 'wrong', and put that together with the interest a lot of young people also have in being alternative and trying different things ( from growing your hair long to dabbling in magic - it can cover just about anything) and some will want to play act that Sauron and Orcs really existed. So long as you don't start actually living full time as an Orc or a Hobbit then you're just a fan responding to the work, that's all.

People do know that the Orcs were nasty, but they still find them interesting. And anyway, it's so easy to wind up young, idealistic Elf-heads by pretending to be a Minion...and it can be great fun too....

What do you think of vampires?
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:23 AM   #31
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People do know that the Orcs were nasty, but they still find them interesting. And anyway, it's so easy to wind up young, idealistic Elf-heads by pretending to be a Minion...and it can be great fun too....
I'll second that

Does anyone actually read Lord of the Rings and thinks 'hey let's try and raise an army of orcs and try and take over the whole world'? This reminds of all that crap about Harry Potter being the antichrist.
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Old 03-06-2007, 02:09 PM   #32
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Resistance is futile

...I...<grrr>...will...not...<oomph>...post...on.. <aiiii!!>...this...thread...
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:08 PM   #33
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So much for willpower

Forgive me for catching up on replies to 30 posts in one.
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Originally Posted by The 1,000th Reader, post #1
So, why do people root for and like the forces of evil?
The fact is they don't think about the woebegotten serfs and plebes who live out their lives in misery. These are the twisted souls who want to BE the villain, the One In Charge, the one who calls the shots. The ones who think that Good is boring and Evil is exciting are the ones who imagine that they will be the recipients of all the goodies. The ones who sympathize with evil are the ones who fail to see that "good" is good for all, while evil is good only for the one on top, and they want to be that one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Second of the Nine
Melkor was a bloody evil idiot who, judging from the sort of places he produced, could not possibly have had anyone's best interests in mind, and he should have just sat down, shut up and played along with the rest.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Originally Posted by Mithalwen, post #2
The sterility of absolute goodness - I am thinking a little of Blake and his resentment of the stifling effect of tradition and the establishment
To that I can only reply
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Originally Posted by Thenamir, in several other threads on good and evil
When an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-benevolent being says to you, "Don't go there," it is not ruggend individualism, nor free thinking, nor creative license to go there anyway -- it is probably suicide.
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Originally Posted by Raynor, post #3
How come you consider her selfish...when one sacrifices everything for love
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Greater love has no man, than to lay down his life for a friend.
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Originally Posted by Lalwendė, post #4
you can like which ever characters you want to like...There isn't a wrong side, because these are just characters in a book.
This is very true. But it seems to me that you can tell quite a bit about a person from knowing with whom they sympathize. If you'd rather be buddies with Sauron than Gandalf, then I'll keep my eyes on you while I feel for my hatchet. (Apologies to C. S. Lewis.) And Yes, Virginia, there is a wrong side -- if you favor totalitarianism versus freedom, you are on the wrong side, for the reasons Second of the Nine states above.
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Originally Posted by Raynor, post#5
Doesn't intention in fact define morality, moreso than the materialisation of intention?
Precisely, Raynor. When your intention is to satisfy and gratify youself without regard for the well-being and happiness of others, that is the quintessential definition of evil.
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Originally Posted by The 1,000th Reader, post #6
a good deal of them are middle-aged folk
If anyone thinks the Goth contingent is confined to teenagers, you are gravely mistaken. There are people of all ages who are miserable, and would like nothing more than to drag everyone else down into their misery with them -- the idea that someone, somewhere is happy makes them go postal.
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Originally Posted by Lalwendė, post #7
There are some Downers who happen to love Orcs, think Melkor is ace and have crushes on Grima. So what? They aren't wrong, but it's definitely wrong to say they are wrong for that as it's a free choice.
LOL -- just read that over again to yourself, saying that it is wrong to say that people are wrong -- can you not see the self-contradiction? Without admitting it to yourself, you are guilty of establishing a standard of right and wrong, while at the same time saying that such standards should not exist! It is certainly not wrong (in the sense of "illegal") to hold such views. But to glorify oppression, tyranny, and self-aggrandizement is indeed wrong (in the sense of "immoral" or "evil"). Whatever happened to the maxim, "Do unto others as you would like them to do to you"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by the guy who be short, post #8
good and evil are relative concepts. The elves were doomed to hate orcs and try to wipe them out. The orcs were doomed to hate elves and try to wipe them out. To the orcs, the Elves must have appeared as evil aggressors. Supporting them is entirely fair...we have white and black in the Elves and Orcs. All you have to do is press a button to invert the colours.
Heavens! Surely you will not tell me that you are trying to draw some kind of twisted moral equivalence between the live-and-let-live (for the most part) Elves, and the murderous near-automatons of a ruthless and compassionless overlord? "Oh, if we could just undertstand the orcs, learn why their hatred is so great, perhaps we could reason with them, help them find their inner orcling..." This kind of reasoning is what blinds beople into inaction until it is too late.
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How shall any tower withstand such numbers and such reckless hate?
I am skipping around a bit here -- please do not think that because I left a post without comment that it was not interesting or insightful. My time is limited. And several posts were adequately answered by others. This post is already long enough, and perhaps if I find more time tomorrow, I will pick up some other points which fatigue does not allow me to cover now. Feel free to flame away!
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Old 03-07-2007, 05:16 AM   #34
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Whatever happened to the maxim, "Do unto others as you would like them to do to you"?
I personally follow the maxim "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". I am beholden to nobody but myself, and I certainly do not need a supernatural presnece to tell me how to behave. I am mature enough to work that out for myself, and I have been brought up that way by Christian and Agnostic parents. I am one of the most responsible, law-abiding and moral people I know, if I say so myself.

This also gives me the advantage of being able to distinguish a fictional character from a real one. If people who cannot do that wish to judge me for it, then it's not my problem but theirs. Far too many people judge by appearances I'm afraid.

As indeed people judge Goths. Yet in comparison to the herd mentality of most young people you could not hope to meet a bunch of more creative, interesting, intellectual, thoughtful people. I hope to have a young Goth (or similar ) child one day .

And I'm afraid a large contingent of Tolkien fans, including members of this very board, are kids and adults just like that. We are not all cuddly, fluffy little good girls who sit with our hands neatly folded on our laps. Some of us indeed might be pinko commies, gays, ethnic minorities or 'satanic' atheists and pagans. Personally I don't really care what a person is, it certainly does not make them wrong.

Quote:
The ones who sympathize with evil are the ones who fail to see that "good" is good for all, while evil is good only for the one on top, and they want to be that one.
No. We don't fail to see that at all. But we do know that these are just made up characters in a book and if you really want to judge people for having fun with them, then really, its just sad.
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:44 AM   #35
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But we do know that these are just made up characters in a book
However, as has been pointed out previously, this invokes an exception to morality that, as far as I am aware, does not exist. As far as I am aware, this point has not been yet addressed.
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Old 03-07-2007, 08:39 AM   #36
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However, as has been pointed out previously, this invokes an exception to morality that, as far as I am aware, does not exist. As far as I am aware, this point has not been yet addressed.
Sorry but it's ever so slightly paranoid to think that the billions of ordinary people who find the bad guys in books or films or comics thrilling are somehow "morally wrong".

If we took things to that extreme we'd be telling kids that Doctor Who was evil because he is a Time Lord and it refutes scriptures. Or that they shouldn't read the Wind In The Willows because talking, sentient animals are pagan. Or that they shouldn't listen to Motorhead as it might make you gay (as one notoriously silly website claims). In fact many people claim nobody should read Tolkien because it encourages witchcraft.

They should get a life.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:45 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Lalwendė
They should get a life.
Precisely! Thank you, Lal!

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Now, I have a thought I'd like to share.

In reading over the posts on this thread, it seems to me that few are actually trying to answer the question The 1,000 Reader first posed (and this includes him). Rather, I think a good portion of the posts are not discussing why people might like the bad guys, but actually seem to be criticizing those people for liking the bad guys (i.e. the questioning of morality, etc). Exploring the attraction of the bad guys is one thing, but maligning the people who like them is entirely a different matter. I think the direction and tone of the thread needs a change, then, if this is the case.
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:50 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Thenamir
Surely you will not tell me that you are trying to draw some kind of twisted moral equivalence between the live-and-let-live (for the most part) Elves, and the murderous near-automatons of a ruthless and compassionless overlord?
I suppose that more than anything, I'm pointing out the great flaw in Middle-Earth, which is that the evil are doomed to evil with no chance or choice of repentance. An orc is unable to repent of its "evil" - the evil is inherent in its blood. And, if this is the case, and morality is defined by intent, not genetics, then orcs are not immoral.

The argument that orcs are evil is similar to labelling the mentally ill as evil. They don't choose to hear voices commanding them to murder. They are doomed to it.

Melkor and the fallen Maiar and Valar may be evil by intent, but not the orcs and the trolls. They are victims as much as the Elves and Men.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorbag, lotr
What d'you say? - if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.
The passage in the Stairs of Cirith Ungol always gets me. You see that orcs are slaves of Sauron, as much to be pitied as hated.


Quote:
If anyone thinks the Goth contingent is confined to teenagers, you are gravely mistaken. There are people of all ages who are miserable, and would like nothing more than to drag everyone else down into their misery with them -- the idea that someone, somewhere is happy makes them go postal.
None of the Goths I know are depressed, and none of the depressive people I know are Goths. I'd say being a Goth is more about being different than about being depressed. Also, as Lalwende says, the Goth subculture, in my experience, is unusually intelligent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwende
Some of us indeed might be pinko commies, gays, ethnic minorities or 'satanic' atheists and pagans.
Some are all four at once.

Last edited by the guy who be short; 03-07-2007 at 11:51 AM. Reason: number agreement
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:52 AM   #39
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Sorry but it's ever so slightly paranoid to think that the billions of ordinary people who find the bad guys in books or films or comics thrilling are somehow "morally wrong".
What is your argument here? That a certain thing is good because it is popular? That, in and of itself, is an instance of "ad populum" fallacy. Yes, I argue that there is a degree of immorality if we delight in evil qualities, and the fact that many people find it acceptable doesn't make it so. If I may quote Gandhi, the truth is the truth even if spoken by one single person.
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If we took things to that extreme we'd be telling kids that Doctor Who was evil because he is a Time Lord and it refutes scriptures. Or that they shouldn't read the Wind In The Willows because talking, sentient animals are pagan.
Your argument is irrelevant because it doesn't address the question, which concerned our attitudes towards evil persons - and not what makes a person evil or not, and not what should we do about books where evil characters appear.

Concerning your first example, Tolkien is a foremost defender of the idea that fairy-tales and religion are not mutually exclusive - quite the contrary.
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Old 03-07-2007, 12:07 PM   #40
Thenamir
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Originally Posted by Lalwendė
If people who cannot do that wish to judge me for it, then it's not my problem but theirs.
Lalwendė, I apologize if this became a personal attack on you, it is not. I certainly know the difference between fiction and reality. I have nothing against those who enjoy a well-written villain in the context of a work of fiction -- such antagonists are necessary to good fiction. The kinds of people I am admittedly ranting about in my long-winded post are those who also know the difference between fiction and reality, but who also sympathize with and would (if they could) emulate the practices and methods of the villains. In essence, they are calling evil good, and good evil. I humbly ask The 1,000th Reader to confirm whether or not I have interpreted the question correctly.

And Lalwende, I note that you did not address the fundamental logical fallacies in your post which I pointed out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight
Does anyone actually read Lord of the Rings and thinks 'hey let's try and raise an army of orcs and try and take over the whole world'?
No, but there are those who read Mein Kampf and think the same thing. They are probably the same ones T1000R is talking about in his original post.
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