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03-12-2005, 07:15 PM | #1 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Mar 2005
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gondors armies vs. rohans
has anyone noticed in the movies pj portrays rohans armies as far superior in both size and skill than gondors armies?its obvious gondor was larger and a bigger force than rohan in the books.
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03-12-2005, 07:27 PM | #2 |
Raffish Rapscallion
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Welcome to the Barrowdowns, dwarfguard. It did seem like the Rohirrim were superior to Gondor, but I'm pretty sure there are several different good threads on this already. This one for sure, at least.
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03-12-2005, 07:43 PM | #3 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Mar 2005
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thats a good thread, but i'm really referring to the sizes.Theoden said he had 6,000 spears, but even faramirs company was probably 200 to 300 at the most.Even Gandalf in the movie asked Denethor"where are gondors armies"?
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03-13-2005, 07:46 PM | #4 |
Sword of Spirit
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When Gandalf asked "Where are Gondor's armies?" I think he was questioning why they were not on the front. It seemed that Denethor had not sent nearly enough troops to hold Osgiliath. Most of them were probably kept in the city, where they were useless. So Gandalf was really saying "Why are your soldiers hiding in Minas Tirith when that's not where the battle is?"
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03-13-2005, 08:32 PM | #5 | |
Laconic Loreman
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03-23-2005, 05:18 PM | #6 |
Haunting Spirit
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I too really noticed that PJ portrayed Rohan's soldiers as much better fighters than Gondorian warriors. At Helm's Deep Rohan's soldiers put forth their best effort and fought their hardest. The Uruk-Hai only triumphed by shear weight of numbers. It is common for people to fight their hardest when they are in their homeland defending their very existence, a great example in our own world was Berlin 1945.
But if that is the case then it did not apply to Gondor's soldiers. In both Osgiliath and Minas Tirith Gondorian soldiers get totally wamped on by orcs. There are two explanations for why this is. 1st being that Rohan was fighting Uruk-Hai and even though they are incredibly strong, I believe PJ intended for the new orcs in RotK to be even stronger. Therefore both Rohan's and Gondor's armies could be equal in fighting ability, but their foes' skills different. The 2nd possible explanation does not have anything to do with fighting abilities. Throughout FotR and TTT the orcs and uruk-hai get totally pwnzored. Perhaps PJ got tired of the consistent annihilation of the bad guys in the previous two movies and wanted the good guys to die for once. The first time I saw RotK I was kinda glad to see the good guys get wasted for a change. Also, that helped increase the suspense in the last chapter of the sage for those non-readers who had doubts about whether or not Gondor was going to win the war. Even the seemingly invicible Rohan cavalry gets butchered up a bit by the Mumakil. Whenever Rohan charges a field it must use hax or something cuz they are unstoppable. All in all, there is a lot more good guy death in RotK and since Gondor takes the brunt of the action and Rohan does not, Gondor might look like a worse fighting force.
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03-23-2005, 07:29 PM | #7 |
Wight
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Now that you point this out. The first thing that comes to my mind is that the uruk-hai that fought at Helm's Deep were from Saruman, and the ones from Gondor were mostly if not entirely from Mordor, made by Sauron (undoubtedly the more evil of the two). So in that respect the races of uruk-hai were different. Like that of the world today. The way they were made, or brought about and what was put into them. Bigger and stronger, meaner - possibly but the book doesnt really say.
Now as for which army was stronger and what not, I think is a bit of an unfair statement to make. You had the Rohirrim who all had horses, basically, and from there they had the long spears and it is much harder to kill a man on a horse with a spear than a man with a sword right in front of you. As for fighting in dire need. In Rohan they had Aragorn, and he sparked that light of hope, if you can recall in the movie when they are in the armory and Aragorn and Legolas have the "heated discussion" and in which Legolas see that a false hope is better than no hope. Even Theoden recognizes that he didnt lead Rohan to victory but it was Aragorn. In Gondor there was Gandalf, but he was no Aragorn. The people had lived to long in fear and no one to lead them. At least in Rohan there was Eomer. The people in Gondor looked out the window and saw the vast number of uruk-hai and other enemies and lost all hope. No matter what you say Gandalf was no king, he was no Aragorn. Even if he did Gondor still didnt have Denethor behind it, and too have someone come in and try to do good without the help of the ruler just doesnt work as well as if you have both working for good as Aragor and Theoden did.
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03-23-2005, 07:38 PM | #8 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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I think you could compare the two armies, it may be a little uneven, with Rohan mainly being Cavalry, and Gondor mainly being heavy infantry. I would argue that Imrahil's Knights of Dol Amroth were possibly the best Cavalry unit in LOTR (aren't afraid of the Nazgul), but since they didn't appear in the movie it doesn't make a difference...
Since their fighting styles are also different, I think it's going to come down to leadership, and depending upon the time, is who had the better leadership...Starting in TTT the advantage goes to Rohan, they have Theoden, Theodred, Eomer, and Gamling...Gondor has Denethor and Faramir (and Faramir's little buddy that follows him around). Darn...I wish Imrahil was in the movie...But once the Ring is destroyed, I'll give the advantage to Gondor..Now they have the newly acquired Aragorn, and Rohan lost their good leaders (excluding Eomer). Quote:
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03-23-2005, 08:08 PM | #9 | ||
Wight
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03-23-2005, 08:24 PM | #10 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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03-23-2005, 08:47 PM | #11 | |
Wight
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But then again the people didn't know him any better, if not less than Gandalf. And if you wanted to you could bring in the fact that every one reacts differently to a different situation. But the best thing I can think of is today's military. The military today is mostly Bush supporters. (I dont mean to offend any one on their political parties it's just an example) They fight because they love their country and they love their leader. I am sure that in those times it was the same thing. The people may have been forced to fight, but they would fight better for a leader they loved and respected.
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03-24-2005, 08:19 AM | #12 | |
Laconic Loreman
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An important point though that has been discussed before, as seen in Arvedui's claim and Aragorn's decisions, that it takes more than "right" to become King. One must have the support of the people, in which it seemed Aragorn did. The movies I think show this a little differently, that they were just tired of Denethor and wanted the true King. Where the books deal with it in a bit different way, Aragorn must prove himself to the people, (being victorious at the Morannon) to get the support of Gondor.
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03-24-2005, 11:09 PM | #13 |
Wight
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You are right when you say that the way that things are portrayed is different between the books and movie.
Actually i think its covered pretty nicely in Aragorn's decisions from what I read. In the movie they leave out that whole part with Imrahil and the House of Healing. I think that part really helped gain the respect and trust of the people. Through that whole time between the battle at Pelennor Fields and the time when they march on the Black Gate Aragorn refuses to enter the city as the king. He is recognized as the Captain of the Dunedain of Arnor for the time being and remains in a tent outside the city. So when they (Aragorn, Gandalf, Imrahil, Eomer) lead the armies against the Black Gate and they are victorious, and he is finally revealed to them as Aragorn, the rightful king, they realize that this guy that they trusted in battle, as a result of his skill, is going to be their king. So by the time he actually take the thrown the people know that he can be a leader because of how he lead them to victory over Sauron, and then they are more willing to accept him. I asked and we can continue to compare this to the books as long as it doesnt turn into just a book discussion.
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"Its a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to" Last edited by Lolidir; 03-25-2005 at 09:27 PM. |
05-06-2005, 03:16 PM | #14 |
Pile O'Bones
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It did seem that Rohan's army was vastly superior in size and skill than that of Gondor...Maybe PJ made it that way to emphasize that the power and grandeur of Gondor had slipped from what it had been.
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05-10-2005, 10:46 AM | #15 |
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I agree.
Well i like Rohan a lot better than gondor though but its seems strange that Rohans army should outnumber Gondors. But i believe the Rohirrim are one of the most skilled armies in middle earth. well thats my opinion though. |
05-24-2005, 06:48 AM | #16 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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05-24-2005, 04:51 PM | #17 |
Psyche of Prince Immortal
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well Gondor should be the most skilled because of its heritage, most traditional at that fact, Rohan maybe pretty strong...
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05-26-2005, 07:01 AM | #18 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I believe the movie Rohannic military superiority is just PJ's change.
In the books somewhere I think one of the hobbits, upon reaching Gondor, is struck by how much more impresive Gondorian warriors are in comparison to Rohannic. And I believe the bulk of the army of the west that went to Mordor was comprised of Gondorians, with (500 mounted and 500 infantry Rohan fighters).
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06-07-2005, 01:57 AM | #19 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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06-07-2005, 07:05 AM | #20 |
Psyche of Prince Immortal
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Well not that good, cause remember, Boromir was suppose to be the best of them all, and if in the movies he was shot down by only three arrows, then Gondorians shouldn't be able to stand three arrows...
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06-07-2005, 07:07 AM | #21 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Boromir was unarmoured?
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06-07-2005, 07:09 AM | #22 |
Psyche of Prince Immortal
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Its more skill then weaponary...
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06-07-2005, 12:46 PM | #23 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I have no idea what you meant by that. If you're saying the movie Boromir was an inept fighter, that itself is debatable.
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