The Silmarillion Survivor

[the phantom]

if Manwe is gone will Gandalf ever come to M-e?

Varda could send him. From Unfinished Tales, The Istari-

There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar: Olorin (Gandalf) to Manwe and Varda...

[Anguirel]

Ungoliant-2
Manwe-3
Ingwe-3
Feanor-2
Curufin-3

I yearn to be rid of the useless and goody-two-shoes Ingwe, but may have to vote for Manwe to save Feanor and Curufin!

Come on, people. Vote Ingwe; he's a snooty fop, a blonde Aryan supremacist, a cowtowing Valar licking emasculated priceling, and I have a really amusing eviction description lined up for him, honest...

the phantom-switch to Ingwe for now and we'll Manwe-hunt tomorrow. Deal?

Oh, and the question of Gandalf is irrelevant. This game covers the Quenta Silmarillion, IE it'll end when the First Age does.

[arcticstorm]

-- Manwe ++Ingwe

I am doing this in order to save feanor and his son

[Anguirel]

arcticstorm m'lad-have a Star of Feanor! You have excellent taste.

Ungoliant-2
Manwe-2
Ingwe-4
Curufin-3
Feanor-2

[Lalaith]

Think of all the flirting, intrigues and love triangels could be created if some more women were allowed

Now, Gothmog my love, surely you aren't suggesting this is the only purpose and function of women in this programme?

[Gothmog]

I'd rather vote for Ingwe than Manwe, allthough the best would be Curufin. Why not one of Feanors sons? There's a whole bunch of 'em anyway

[Anguirel]

There's a whole bunch of Valar too. And a few Vanyar. And the Seven Sons are more interesting, proactive and charismatic than all of the rest of them put together!

Besides, the more...morally dubious...of the brothers are by far the best villains in the book. Melkor is a kind of ultimately evil Blofeld or Voldemort, with a stereotypical German accent. Celegorm and Curufin are Scaramanga or Lucius, with a British accent straight out of Hollywood's idea of Eton. They're suave. They're elegant. They have good dress sense. They have classical educations. They think up ridiculously elaborate, ambitious, and stylish plans.

In short, they're a pair of pretty cool cucumbers, and I'd like to see them be still more successful than they were in the book...

[Gothmog]

Now, Gothmog my love, surely you aren't suggesting this is the only purpose and function of women in this programme?

Of course not! It's just that was Anguirel was talking about what makes good TV, and the way this society is going thats's what gives high viewing figures. If it's good TV is an other thing we could discuss...

Naturally, the women will cause some interesting conflicts and other situations, but that's only because you are so lovely we men act like fools around you

The program would benefit in many ways by having the women left in the competition. There's some really strong characters among them, like Varda or Yavanna.

Better?

And Anguirel: sure they can be interesting, but they're still evil and might spoil the nice feeling of companionship and peace we have here. Couldn't you manage without at least one? You'll have six left to play with

[Anguirel]

If you want to nail a Son of Feanor, chase a twin. That would be nice and canonical!

All the others are among my favourite literary creations ever. Up there with Corporal Ludovick from Waugh's Sword of Honour...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by arcticstorm

-- Manwe ++Ingwe

I am doing this in order to save feanor and his son

No your not !

You are doing it because you are a turncoat !

I may have to curse you !

[Anguirel]

Incidentally, you'll notice I'm completely failing to be as impartial as Boro, particularly where the Seven Sons are concerned. If I haven't sobered up by the end, I'll decide the winner in the event of a tie by coin-tossing...

[the phantom]

Ungoliant-2
Manwe-2
Ingwe-4
Curufin-3
Feanor-2

Feanor only has one vote. On the first post of the thread, you specifically said-

The Silmarillion is a substantial work. In keeping with this, all votes without some reasoning are discounted.

So, only morm's vote for Feanor counts.

You are doing it because you are a turncoat !

Don't worry, Rune Son, Manwe will get booted off soon enough.

Anguirel said-

the phantom-switch to Ingwe for now and we'll Manwe-hunt tomorrow. Deal?

Maybe it isn't such a bad idea to bandwagon on Ingwe to make sure one of the two we want gets voted off, and tomorrow bandwagon on Manwe.

I'm willing to accept Anguirel's truce. How about you, Rune Son? Will you agree to the "Ingwe today, Manwe tomorrow" plan? I think you should. We must band together to save the poor Noldor, who, because of the Valar, were matched against a power (Melkor) that they could not contend with.

Save the Noldor! Bandwagon on Ingwe!

- - Manwe, + + Ingwe

We will take care of the ineffective Manwe tomorrow.

[Anguirel]

Voting closed. Results:

Ungoliant-2
Manwe-1
Ingwe-5
Curufin-3
Feanor-1

For his pomposity, his pretensions to pan-Elf dominion, and his frivolous suggestion that the contestants should hold a festival instead of guarding the Trees, Ingwe of the Vanyar is banished to the Halls of Mandos!

Results of the challenge and repercussions will be up at 7:30 am GMT.

[Anguirel]

Rune, voting is closed! Retire to a pleasant Valinorean rest and see what awaits you in the morning...

[Gothmog]

Awww, what is this? Already making pacts and forsaking your own free will to save some criminals? I agree that Feanor should stay. His sons may be good to have around, at least they'll create some commotion (Maedhros and Maglor should definitely stay). But we'll do with 6 out of 7. Curufin must go.

I don't like Ingwe very much, but you're voting for him only because he doesn't do anything. Better to vote for someone because they're doing something wrong.

What good will the leaving of Ingwe do considering the first task? Curufin on the other hand... I suspect the family of Feanor might try to harm the trees.

Think about it: Feanor has created the Silmarils and captured the light of the trees within. What if the trees were hurt? That would mean Feanor & Co owned an incredible treasure, the only reminder of the beautiful light of Telperion and Laurelin. A treasure to kill for...

sorry, too late... lost track of time

[Anguirel]

RESULTS OF DAY ONE

Ingwe had never been so insulted. He raised up all the Vanyar menfolk with not-that-fiery oratory.

"Is this not a disgrace, my braves? That the Valar have stopped cuddling us? I say we rebel, and, er, sail to Middle-earth..."

So devoted were they that the men of the Vanyar followed him with one heart. And they approached the Teleri to find ships.

And Ingwe said, "My lord Olwe, we're, er, planning to rebel and colonise Middle-arth. Can we have some transport please?"

And King Olwe did say, "Get lost, wimp." And the Vanyar did crawl off in sorrow and abashment. Yet Ingwe, full of hope, ordered them to craft vessels of their own.

Never was such a lovely sight as the Vanyar fleet seen, and the Teleri watched on the shores in awe. For the hulls were made of silver and gold, and studded with gleaming gems.

Alas, the Vanyar were not learned in sea-craft. Gold does not float. And the bards of the Teleri crafted a song of the drowning of the Vanyar:

"Then the corpses began to trail their way
Back to our fair country, home of the Fair Elves
And their fair hair was awfully bedraggled."

The women of the Vanyar made some little dole and moan, then embraced emancipation and became Valkyries.

~~~

RESULTS OF THE CHALLENGE

Although the Elves had contemptuously rejected Ingwe's partying suggestion and guarded the Trees, the Valar had still attended Manwe's festival. All but Melkor.

For he joined with Ungoliant on a terrible and underhand assault on the Trees. Only a crowd of intimidated Noldor stood between him and his prize.

Then Feanor drew his sword, and Melkor made a mental note that he should have taught the Noldor weaponcraft after destroying the Trees, not before, as all the rest followed suit...ever cunning, he legged it, pretending he had never been there.

Yet the battle between the House of Finwe and Ungoliant was fierce. Amrod fell, and Angrod, unprotected by the armour of interesting characterisation. Fingon had been sent to alert the Valar; and Tulkas arrived, and Ungoliant prudently retreated.

The first task was won. But it was discovered that Melkor had secretly raided Formenos, cut Finwe into pieces and stolen the Silmarilli! And Feanor named him Morgoth, Dark Enemy of the World...

The contestants:

Tribes

VALAR

Manwe
Ulmo
Aule
Tulkas
Namo aka Mandos
Orome
Lorien
Varda
Yavanna
Nienna
Este
Vana
Vaire
Nessa

NOLDOR

Feanor
Fingolfin
Finarfin
Maedhros
Maglor
Celegorm
Caranthir
Curufin
Amras
Fingon
Turgon
Aredhel
Finrod
Artanis aka Galadriel
Orodreth
Aegnor

TELERI

Olwe

MAIA

Osse
Uinen
Eonwe
Huan
Olorin
Tilion
Arien

VANYAR

Indis
Amarie

FORCES OF EVIL

Morgoth
Ungoliant

It's Day Two in Valinor. The second task: DIPLOMACY. Prevent any slaying of Elf by Elf.

Today, as an experiment, voting will continue till 7:30 am GMT tomorrow, as I know some weren't able to make the last Day. That means I'll be sleeping for most of the voting and a running tally kept by someone else would be really helpful.

[the phantom]

The second task: DIPLOMACY. Prevent any slaying of Elf by Elf.

That is quite a challenge. Now, I imagine everyone will be wanting to vote for the obvious Feanor in this situation, but remember what The Saucepan Man said about the last task-

My preminary reaction to the "problem" which Ang has set us today is that the obvious solution may not necessarily be the best one.

I believe that is true with this task also.

Feanor should not be the one to go.

First, we know that the kinslaying was between the Noldor and Teleri. The Noldor are always, for some reason, blamed for the entire incident, but are they really deserving of all that blame?

From The Silmarillion-

...he (Feanor) went to the Haven of the Swans and began to man the ships that were anchored there and to take them away by force. But the Teleri withstood him, and cast many of the Noldor into the sea. Then swords were drawn...

There! Swords were not drawn until the Teleri had thrown some of the Noldor into the sea!

And, as we all know, the Teleri were water-friendly elves, and the Noldor were not. Obviously, the Noldor could not swim, and surely the Teleri knew this!

The Teleri were the first to kill!

Yes, yes, I know that their boats were being taken, but are timbers worth killing for?

No!

But, why were the Noldor forced to take the boats in the first place? The Teleri were supposed to be their friends. The Noldor actually built the Teleri's city for them! Why weren't the Teleri willing to let their friends use their boats?

From the Silmarillion-

...no ship would they lend, nor help in the building, against the will of the Valar.

The Valar!

The Teleri wouldn't help their friends because they didn't want to displease the Valar! What kind of garbage is that?

The Noldor had their King slain and their treasure stolen, and what do the Valar do about it? They try to keep the Noldor from leaving Valinor- to keep them from fighting against the evil that had wronged them!

Once again, the Valar prove their complete incompetence!

When a unit consistently performs poorly, doesn't it seem logical to try new leadership?

Of course it does.

Manwe has messed up quite enough. He needs to go.

But if people for some reason want to keep him around, the next choice should be Olwe, for blindly obeying the whims of a grossly inept Manwe, and for not helping his friends in their need, and for the fact that it was his people, the Teleri, who started the slaying.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

But if people for some reason want to keep him around, the next choice should be Olwe ...

But we still may need his boats, tp. Just look what happened when another tribe tried making their own ...

I tend to agree that it was the ineptitude of the Valar and the effect of their ludicrous rules which led to the kinslaying. But it was not Manwe's decision alone. The Valar are rather beaurocratically minded and tend to take decisions by committee. Even if Manwe goes, who is to say that Varda or Mandos, for example, will not propose the same restrictions on Elvish emigration and that the Valar, in committee, will not agree them?

But there is another possibility. If the will of the Valar is not known to the Elves, the Teleri will have no reason to deny Feanor's request. And who is it who publicises the will of the Valar? Why, none other than Manwe's herald, Eonwe.

What does Manwe need a herald for, anyway? Let him do his own dirty work, I say, and then we may see what he is really made of. Get rid of the monkey and we might have an opportunity to test the mettle of the organ grinder and be better placed to assess what he has to offer.

++ EONWE

[Lalaith]

I hear what you're saying Saucie, really I do, and will bear it in mind for a later time.
BUT, today's task is diplomacy. So it is not the day to ditch the PR.

I've thought about this and if we're going to win today's challenge, the obvious one to go is Osse.
The man's a nightmare - stirring things up and making trouble wherever he goes. AND he was once one of Melkor's posse. Why were the Teleri being so damn anal about their blessed boats? I wouldn't be at all surprised if he were the poison-dripping Iago turning their naive little minds against their cousins.

Plus, if Uinen didn't have to spend all her time trying to smooth out the social havoc created by her wayward spouse, she'd be able to focus her people skills on the wider issues now facing our divided elf community.

++OSSE

[Gothmog]

I agree with the Saucepan Man. Valar need learn a lesson, beeing too stuck up. They need to climb of their high horses, but Manwe is no good choice. Eönwe never did anything important. His some kind of front figure, blowing in trumpets and declaring things in a high pitched voice. His all show. If valar looses one of their closest, maybe they'll realise that they're not immune to voting and they might not deny the Noldor their own free will.

To keep the peace we must keep everybody calm, and a strong leader will be very important. Therefor Manwe stays, a fight for the crown now would be devastating.

Blaming Olwe or Feanor, that's blaming a symptom. What we need to do is treat the sickness behind the symptom before it breaks out...

++Eönwë

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

BUT, today's task is diplomacy. So it is not the day to ditch the PR.

For diplomacy to work properly, the protagonists need to talk face-to-face, rather than one side relying on some sweet-talking spin-doctor. Communicating through intermediaries only increases the risk of mismanagement, miscommunication and misunderstanding. It seems to me that, if the Valar are forced to involve themselves directly in the lives of the Elves, rather than issuing solemn directives from on high, there will be a lot more co-operation and a lot less dischord.

Ditch the spin, I say.

[Anguirel]

Votes:

Eonwe: 2
Osse: 1

I see great sense in Saucie's plan. I've never liked that stuck-up Eonwe with his poncy heraldic goings-on, and it seems exceptionally cunning to stop the Teleri being commanded by disposing of the messenger.

However, the phantom's more direct and radical plan to do away with the ineffectual King of Arda also has merit, and I am mindful of my promise yesterday. Unless the phantom chooses to release me from my bond, I will join the anti-Manwe party.

Some further evidence for you to brood on: an extract from the Silmarillion Film Project's provisional script dealing with the First Kinslaying...

Originally Posted by Silm Film Script

Scene 35 Alqualondë

[Shot over the Noldor host. The banners of Feanor approach. The white swanships lie in the harbour.]

Harbour Master: The King has refused you passage! Turn back and make amends with the Valar.
Feanor: It is too late for that. Surrender your ships.
Mariner: What are you going to do, Feanor, King of the Noldor? Attack us?

[Laughing from the Teleri. Silence from the Noldor.]

Celegorm: Advance!

[The heavily armoured Noldor march forward. They start to step onto the ramps.]

Harbour Master: What is this insanity?
Mariner: Get off. We cannot let you on board.
Feanor: This is your last chance, mariners of the Teleri. You force our hands. Capitulate or...

[There is a splash. Several of the Noldor have been pushed into the sea. They sink rapidly. Feanor, Celegorm, and Curufin draw their swords. Curufin stabs the unarmed Harbour Master as he passes.]

Teleri Captain: Traitors and pirates! Archers, fire!

A clear corroboration of the phantom's view that the Teleri started the fight...

[Gothmog]

And an other evidence of the brute Curufin really are. Stabbing an unarmed man following his king's command... As soon as I get the chance, I'll make sure that criminal is thrown off the survivor island. My crusade has only begun...

How can you defend such an act of cruelness and such a lack of respect for life, Anguirel?

[Celuien]

Hmm, there certainly is a lot to be said for Sauce's plan. Manwe should take care of his own messages for any important diplomatic situation to be sure that there are no misunderstandings...and to prove that he's worthy of staying in this game. If he does come, I can't see the Elves getting into a fight in front of him - it's never good to cause trouble in front of the Boss. And if Manwe doesn't show up to make a declaration, I have to agree that there's still less chance that the either the Noldor or Teleri will start trouble. Either way, we've avoided a Kinslaying.

And Eonwe has become entirely too conceited since he got this job. All he does is brag about how he was chosen to be Manwe's Herald. It's very annoying.

++EONWE

[Anguirel]

It's simply stylish villainy. Curufin's a cad in the splendid Three Musketeers tradition, so I thought that particular action would suit him...I took it somewhat from here...

Originally Posted by A Dumas film I saw last christmas

CARDINAL: You're mad!

CURUFINISH CHAP IN BLACK: Mad, Cardinal? I've been called that three times tonight. It must be so.

(He starts to leave. The Cardinal addresses one of his guards.)

GUARD: Shall I take him, my lord?

CARDINAL: Do so.

(The guard draws his rapier and rushes after the Curufinish villain. The Curufinish villain casually turns, runs him through and carries on walking out.)

It's called panache! Curufin is the John Malkovitch of the show, the Michael Corleone...

[mormegil]

I must keep reminding myself that this is mirth and not the proper forum to get into a heated debated as to where blame belongs for the kinslaying. So I will simply say to prevent the Elf on Elf slaying now and in the future we need to get rid of Feanor and his influence. When will it be that you all have your eyes opened and see that all problems for the Noldor are a result of this impetuous schmuck. Many future problems will be put to rest if we get rid of him now!

++FEANOR

[Gothmog]

Mormegil: It sounds as if you might join my crusade vs the Feanors. Although I prefer to get rid of Curufin, or one of the other Cs, Feanor has to go sooner or later... But for now I'll stick with Eönwe. To throw Feanor out now might cause the sons to go berserk. We must remember to stop the killing of elf by elf, and Feanor seems like the easy solution which proves the wrong one in the end...

How about getting Feanor & Co in a while, not right now?

Plus I must agree with Celuin; Eonwe has become a real braggart. He thinks he's better than everybody else just because Manwe favors him for the time being. I've heard a rumor that he got his eyes on Nessa too... Tulkas won't be happy and that might cause a lot of worries.

[mormegil]

Gothmog the problem is that Feanor will be gone in a couple of scenarios anyway, according to the way I understand it. But I really want to get rid of him now and change the course of Noldorian history. He's a git and need to be done away with. Perhaps there is a chance to save his sons if he's done away with now.

[Anguirel]

Since my suzerain lord the phantom has not absolved my allegiance, allowing me to vote for Eonwe...

++MANWE

True, his downfall will cause internecine chaos among the Valar.

But out of adversity unity might be born...

Votes:

Eonwe-3
Osse-1
Feanor-1
Manwe-1

[the phantom]

I, too, vote + + MANWE, for previously stated reasons.

But, if one of the Noldor is close to being lynched, I will change my vote to save him.

If I do this then that will release you from your pact with me, Anguirel.

I am willing to vote for about anyone to save the Noldor, who received the majority of the malice of Morgoth. In particular I pity Feanor, who Melkor hated above all else, and who, when he understandably messed up, was punished instead of helped by the over-proud Valar, which of course just made him worse.

There is no way that Feanor should go before his time.

[Formendacil]

Diplomacy, eh? So we lynch... er... remove, the least diplomatic?

Feanor goes. Definitely.

Sorry, Anguirel- and all your crazed, Feanorian-loving crowd, but you set the specs here, and Feanor is most definitely the most undiplomatic being in the Silm. Look at his record: he ticks off the Valar, and gets them to not only Ban him, but all his people. He ticks off the Teleri, and manages to upset Noldorin relations with Alqualonde- and Menegroth for that matter- for centuries. He ticks off Melkor, the most powerful being in Arda, and is so undiplomatic as to slam a door in his face. He ticks off his brothers, and gets himself banished from Tirion. He ticks off the Noldor and loses 3/4 of his people....

Feanor may or may not be a great guy. Unlike certain Mormegils in the crowd, I don't see any great need to villify him. But is definitely the least diplomatic Elf to ever roam Valinor or Middle-Earth- including his sons Caranthir, Celegorm, and Curufin...

So, like it or not:

++ Curufinwe Feanaro Finwion

[Anguirel]

To that I would say...trust diplomats to ruin diplomacy. A straight-talking orator who says what he feels can achieve wonders...

Votes:

Eonwe-3
Osse-1
Feanor-2
Manwe-2

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I, too, vote + + MANWE
But, if one of the Noldor is close to being lynched, I will change my vote to save him.

Do not tell them that! They will use it against you ! (in this case us)

++Manwe

He is to blame !

[the phantom]

trust diplomats to ruin diplomacy. A straight-talking orator who says what he feels can achieve wonders

I completely agree.

And Formendacil, regarding your attack on Feanor-

He ticks off Melkor

Is that bad?

He ticks off his brothers

All of them ticked each other off. Melkor made sure of that.

and gets himself banished from Tirion

Quite right. All of the Noldor are influenced by Morgoth, and yet only Feanor is singled out for severe punishment by the Valar.

For doing what? For not being able to resist the power of the most powerful being in all of Ea? That's hardly a crime.

And the Silmarillion says that when the Valar banished him from Tirion it made Melkor's lies appear to be true.

Brilliant move, Manwe! Way to heal the situation! Make the evil bad guy look like he was right all along!

That's the worst thing you could possibly do! It's as if the Valar wanted to push Feanor down the dark path!

I'm sorry, but there is no way we could've expected Feanor to remain unchanged by Melkor's malice. Melkor is too powerful, and his focus was on Feanor in particular. Feanor was going to be affected, just like Hurin the Steadfast was when exposed to Morgoth.

When Melkor's evil was discovered, the Valar should've tried to undo his lies, but instead they took a course of action that made his lies appear to be true in Feanor's eyes.

So, in other words, they made Feanor's condition, which he could not help, even worse!

After that, what do you expect to happen? Good things?

The Valar are most definitely to blame.

No doubt about it.

No question.

[Anguirel]

Eonwe-3
Osse-1
Feanor-2
Manwe-3

This could be my last update...essays and ultimately sleep beckon. As I say, it would be great if someone intermittently recorded votes so I can blearily see who's to be kicked out early tomorrow morning...

[Firefoot]

I will cast my vote in with the Manwe crowd... Manwe is a thoroughly feckless leader who probably makes more mistakes than good judgments. He gets so wrapped up in pleasing Eru that he forgets to make good decisions. Can't have a chap like this in charge, no sirree.

Besides, Fëanor is one of my favorite Elves, and he makes for interesting scenarios. Why vote him off so early?

++Manwe

[arcticstorm]

I would like to poin out that we look at King Olwe's reaction to Ingwe's attempt to get some ships. I do not think that the problem is the Valar, but the problem is with the King of the Teleri, get rid of him and let them have a new king and everything will be fine.

++Olwe

[Glirdan]

Be rid of the King of the Valar. It's his fault the kinslaying could happen at Alqualonde!! He must be puinshed for the mistake he made. It's not Feanor's fault that he's imperfect. It's not Osse fault that he was forbidden to stay the march of Feanor. It's not Olwe's fault that Feanor attacked him without cause. Be rid of the King of Valar. Down with Manwe!!

++Manwe

P.S. To lazy to type in accents.

[Boromir88]

Started already! I like this "challenge" stuff Anguirel, and with that I'm going to bandwagon...

++Manwe

Not much of a diplomat, it's basically his way or the highway. And he was the reason behind Feanor rebelling and causing the kinslaying. Sure Feanor did it, but Manwe is like the mob boss behind the scene who doesn't get his hands dirty, but is the true mastermind.

[Gothmog]

Everybody talks about who to blame. Some people want to vote on Manwe for being so hard and, according to them, unjust in Feanors case. They also say Feanor is not to blame: nobody can resist Melkor.

Others blame Feanor his hot temper and for falling so easy in to Melkors net.

Phantom regardin the Finwe's sons:

All of them ticked each other off. Melkor made sure of that.

Exactly! So what is that piece of Melkor-Morgoth Bauglir-**** thing still doing here?

If we vote for Morgoth, then maybe we would be able to save Feanor from his influence. Maybe we'll be able to prevent "slaying of elf by elf". The power of the dark Lord is strong and his arm is long. Let's cut it off before he ruins good elves! Let's discuss who's more guilty than the other later.

I'm sure Morgoth had someinfluence on Valar too...

--Eonwe
++Morgoth

(Eonwe would still be my second choice though)