Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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The recent article arguig that the Valar appear to have abandoned man got me thinking. Clearly, the Valar did not immediately make war on Morgoth (and if they had the story of Feanor and the First Age might have been happier). They did ultimately grant the appeal of Earendil and destroy the might of morgoth. The Silmarillion suggests that they declined to attack Angband in fear of damaging man in its infancy.

Similarly, it cannot be disputed that the Valar left Sauron to the elves and men during the Second Age. Concededly our knowledge of the Second Age is sketchy, however, until the drowning of Numenor Aman was still &quot;in&quot; the world and it appears the Valar did little or nothing to contest Sauron's attempt to seize the mastery of Middle Earth.

We know more about the Third Age. The Valar, at least, sent the Istari to assist in opposing Sauron, though not to directly confront him. However, there are hints that the Valar did more, albeit indirectly, during the War of the Ring. Any thoughts? If you think the Valar abandoned Middle Earth after the end of the First Age, why?

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

I won't go into what the Valar did or didn't do, but I'll state a few of the things that I think hint at the work of the Valar.

1) The wind changing sooner than Sauron wanted it to
2) Faramir's dream
3) Frodo's prophetic dreams
4) Faramir seeing Boromir on his funeral boat


The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

Add to your list the fortuitous arrival of the eagles at the Morannon, possibly Gwaihir's arrival at Isengard though that may have been attributable to Gandalf, the favorable winds for the Black Fleet once it was seized by Aragorn. Any others? And why did they choose to work so subtlely, if in fact they did anything at all?

</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

Men, being mortal, could not witness the Ainur in their splendor. They would wither and die, or something like that. So the Valar had to use less splendid methods to aid them.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

Man, being mortal, should not live in Valinor. The precise quote is in the Akallabeth, something like &quot;man would wither like a moth in the light&quot;. However, Tuor spoke with Ulmo, and the men who fought alongside the West in the Battle of Wrath at the end of the First Age must have seen a Vala or two.

It could be that the Valar used subtle means to aid in Sauron's defeat out of fear of causing catastrophic damage to Middle Earth. Men being more fragile would suffer greatly. That's sort of the stock answer, but I'm not sure its right.

The Valar aided men and elves at the end of the First Age only after they had faced utter defeat. Perhaps the Valar would wait for the same with Sauron before intervening. But Gandalf seems to think otherwise. He says that if Sauron recovers the Ring the darkness' victory would be so complete that none could foresee its overthrow. This sounds like Gandalf doesn't think the Valar will help.

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

&gt;&gt;Similarly, it cannot be disputed that the Valar left Sauron to the elves and men during the Second Age.&lt;&lt;

I assume from this statement that you are rejecting the late concept of Glorfindel being sent to aid Gil-galad and Elrond, and the arrival of the Two Blue Wizards (Romestamo and Morinehtar) who were sent to the east in the Second Age circa 1600, which are attached to the return of Glorfindel essay and alluded to in UNFINISHED TALES as undecipherable at that time.

Un-coincidentally, this would place the event as around the same time Sauron creates the One Ring, builds Barad-dur, and when Celebrimbor discovers the treachery of Annatar.

They may have been keeping a closer watch than believed.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

Possible. I forgot about the Blue Wizards and thought they arrived in the Third Age. Glorfindel's time of arrival is kind of unsettled too. I forget what HoME 12 says about that (he's discussed in Letters too but my older copy doesn't have an index like the new re-issue).

I've always felt that the Valar never really abandoned anyone. Their failure to intercede was likely a combination of fear for damage and some degree of &quot;apathy&quot;. I use the term &quot;apathy&quot; guardedly because it could easily be argued that the Valar take the long view. Being functionally immortal, a hundred generations (mannish) of trouble might be a drop in the bucket.

But lets take a more radical view. Morgoth's Ring discusses the dissemination of Morgoth's power into the fabric of Arda. The Valar were not inactive with regard to the forming, building and maintainence of Arda either. Perhaps after creating Two Trees, umpteen stars, winds, clouds, gems, mountains, rivers and maintaining the souls and dreams of countless elves, dwarves and men (assuming that they have a role in the keeping of the souls of Dwarves and men) has drastically lessened the power of the Valar to the point where direct intercession into the events of Middle Earth is not viable. This is hinted at in BoLT and early conceptions of the Silmarillion, particularly in the Second Prophecy of Mandos (when the world becomes old and the Valar weary of their burden, Morgoth will re-enter Arda and the Final Battle will occur). Its also hinted at in later iterations (when the lamps of the Valar where upended by Morgoth the Valar expended their energies in keeping Arda in one piece).
Thoughts?

I'm surprised no one has argued that after Numenor was dumped into the ocean and the world changed, the Valar, having laid down their governance of Arda so Eru could make the world round and remove the undying lands, no longer can directly affect events in Middle Earth. I saw this argued somewhere once but personally don't agree.

</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

The Valar being less powerfull in the Third Age is something I had thought of. But the example I had used in my mind was Sauron becoming weaker after making the Ring. You make some very good points.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

&gt;&gt;I forgot about the Blue Wizards and thought they arrived in the Third Age. Glorfindel's time of arrival is kind of unsettled too.&lt;&lt;

The Glorfindel situation was arrived at originally with the essay GLORFINDEL (I) from LAST WRITINGS HISTORY Vol.12 where the rationale of his return is arrived at and arbitrarily placing him in with the arrival of Gandalf in the Third Age.

Then in GLORFINDEL (II) he is moved to arriving in the Second Age, with a far greater detailed analysis and refinement of the Glorfindel situation.

This text is contemporary with GLORFINDEL (I).

Then in THE FIVE WIZARDS from LAST WRITINGS HISTORY Vol.12 (an essay which is tied directly to GLORFINDEL II) the Wizards are stated as having been sent during the Second Age around the same time as Glorfindel (somewhere between 1,200-1,600 with 1,600 most identified by Tolkien as the probable date).

The names Romestamo (East-helper) and Morinehtar (Darkness-slayer) are equivalents of Alatar and Pallando.
Radagast is also known as Aiwendil, Saruman is also known by Curumo, Curunir, The Wise, Sharkey, etc., Gandalf is also known by Mithrandir, Incanus, Grey Wanderer, Grey Pilgrim, Tharkun, Greyhame, Stormcrow, Lathspell, etc.
I'm sure it's not unreasonable to recognize a second name for the Wizards.

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

&gt;&gt;I'm surprised no one has argued that after Numenor was dumped into the ocean and the world changed, the Valar, having laid down their governance of Arda so Eru could make the world round and remove the undying lands, no longer can directly affect events in Middle Earth. I saw this argued somewhere once but personally don't agree.&lt;&lt;

My personal opinion is that the world was always round, with the flat idea abandoned as too dificult to work with. The changing of the World is the removal of Valinor, not making it round. Speculation holds that since Valinor was in the West, by sailing east you should also be able to arrive there. The Numenoreans discovered that there was land to the east, but that it was not Valinor. Nor could they sail past it.
Speculation:
this is probably the Americas. Considering the Helcaraxe and it's extention south, it's reasonable to deduce that the south also had ice reaching to land effectively landlocking the Americas in this instance.

I cite the now infamous LETTER #131 as an example where in Tolkien's description, the removal of Valinor is NOT making the world round, but of not being able to find Valinor by sailing west since it had been removed from the memory of the earth. Attempting to find it would only bring you back eventually to where you started from.
'You can't get there from here: physically' (ya gotta forsake Time and Mortality in the physical world forevermore [LETTER #151]).

I believe that during the Second Age the Valar were afraid of the destructive capabilities when they personally took active roles in the Wars of Middle-earth. Beleriand comes to mind. This may be why they chose 'lesser' ambassadors to represent them, hoping to keep the destruction toned down. This is during the Second Age.

During the Third Age, they had already surrendered any rights to DIRECT governance and involvement to Eru near the end of the Second Age. So they had been reduced to 'proxies' or ambassadors by need instead of choice.

Ah, I could go on I suppose.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

Good arguments also. I don't have a copy of Return of the King handy, but I seem to recall The Tale of Years containing an entry for the wizards or at least Gandalf arriving during the Third Age. Could be wrong, but if so, wouldn't JRRT's late writings on wizards conflict with his often stated position that if something is published in LoTR it will not be changed?

I don't necessarily agree that the Valar, after the change in the world and the removal of Valinor, surrendered rights to governance of Middle Earth. The Akallabeth states &quot;Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and FOR THAT TIME the Valar laid down their government of Arda.&quot; (emphasis added). The Valar had to surrender their authority temporarily because to &quot;change the fashion of the world&quot; was beyond their power. But it is not said that they &quot;thereafter&quot; surrendered their authority, only &quot;for that time&quot;. Their role was the governance of Arda. They easily sent the Wizards and Glorfindel back (assuming this was Third Age and not Second Age as you so cogently argued), and could themselves have returned. On the other hand, if the wizards arrived before the change in the world, their is no evidence that the Straight Road was two way, just as there is no evidence that it was not. Another &quot;canon&quot; definition issue - what was published vs. what was written latest.

Because you advocate Morgoth's Ring's round earth conception, I assume that you hold that some or all of the history which was published in the Silmarillion is &quot;mannish&quot; as opposed to elvish in origin. What to you attribute to man? Also, can't it be assumed that the Numenoreans knew the world was round? If so, why were Akallabeth and Silmarillion, et al. written in a flat earth context? [devil's advocate, I'd like to make the Round Earth conception fit with the Silm.]

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

&gt;&gt;but I seem to recall The Tale of Years containing an entry for the wizards or at least Gandalf arriving during the Third Age.&lt;&lt;

Correct. Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast arrived in the Third Age. The Blue Wizards arrived in the Second. Two different missions.

The AKALLABETH is stated by Christopher to be an oops on his part. He later discovered that it was not the last version as he thought it was, but an earlier one.

HISTORY Vol. 12 HISTORY OF THE AKALLABETH
C.J.R.Tolkien
&quot;When I wrote SAURON DEFEATED I was nonetheless not at all clear about the time of the original writing of the AKALLABETH, and I assumed without sufficient study of the texts that it was later than it proves to be.&quot;

He printed the B2 revision, not the C revision in SILMARILLION. The references are not changed on the 'for that time' section, so this may indeed be in relation to the removal of Valinor only.

</p>

[Boromir]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> The Valar made my brother find me?

I answered another question likewise when questioning the role of Galadriel in the War of the Ring. The Valar were more tied in with the elves the first chidlren of Iluvatar. Elves were sent to Valinor if they died, but men, not tied to Middle Earth went somewhere (I believe) that even Manwe did not know about. As said in the descriptions of the Valar in Valenquenta (I don't think that's spelled right.) no Valar knew all of the history of the Middle Earth, but I believe that some must have foreseen the inheritance of the Middle Earth becasue many elves and wizards refer to it.
It was not the Valar's war to fight. If the men began their inheritance of the Middle Earth by winning a war dependant on the elves or the Valar they would have less confidence in their ability to stay stable than if they won it (seemingly) on their own. Even the help that was sent (isatri) was sent in the form of men. And the pivtol figures were Numenoreans and other men and women of high breeding such as: Aragon, Eomer, Eowyn, Theoden, Beregrond, and Faramir.
I think the seeming reluctance of the Valar to assit men in their troubles was also because they did not understand men as well as elves. Men died of old age, were not very magical, turned easier to darkness, and when they died left the world. Valinor as created but immortal beings themsleves probably had tougher time relating to these men.

I am by no means a Tolkien scholar so correct me on any misconceptions I may have.

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

&gt;&gt;If so, why were Akallabeth and Silmarillion, et al. written in a flat earth context? [devil's advocate, I'd like to make the Round Earth conception fit with the Silm.]&lt;&lt;

I actually have already gone over this point on Xenite.

Akallabeth is NOT from a flat earth context, and had not been as far back as 1945.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

Then why does Akallabeth talk about the Numenoreans sailing east and glimpsing &quot;from their high prows the Gates of Morning in the East&quot;? Sil. p.263 (Houghton Mifflin HB). Also, it discusses the Dunedain sailing West after the fall and coming to &quot;new lands&quot; and saying &quot;all roads are now bent.&quot; Sil. p. 281.

Am I looking at the wrong Akallabeth? I know there's another version but CT doesn't go into detail about it other than to say it appears to be a later conception.

Welcome back btw. Where've you been?

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then why does Akallabeth talk about the Numenoreans sailing east and glimpsing &quot;from their high prows the Gates of Morning in the East&quot;?<hr></blockquote>
Gates of the East are a mountain range on lands they could not sail past, north to south, with no opening in land to sail past. AFAIK in either version you wish to accept, these lands are the Americas.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Also, it discusses the Dunedain sailing West after the fall and coming to &quot;new lands&quot; and saying &quot;all roads are now bent.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
New lands are quite obvious. Since Xenite is down ATM, I'll be happy to repost the points here.
&quot;All roads are now bent&quot; is also obvious. Since the &quot;Straight Road&quot; cannot be taken, (i.e. cannot sail straight) they must be.... bent, especially if they can now sail West. This statement is attributed to Men's conclusions (sailors) and not a statement of fact. As I pointed out earlier, as far back as 1945 with ANADUNE, the world is round with SAURON teaching that it is flat. This is to incorporate such 'mythology' into the world as a tie to OUR own ancient myths. All versions of ANADUNE/AKALLABETH no longer use the flat to round terminology or concept, only that Valinor is removed from the circles of the world and is not within physical reality anymore.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Am I looking at the wrong Akallabeth? I know there's another version but CT doesn't go into detail about it other than to say it appears to be a later conception.<hr></blockquote>
For the most part it is correct. Some omissions, and editorial changes. Note this sentence from Christopher:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> C.R.Tolkien
THE HISTORY OF AKALLABETH
&quot;The Silmarillion text was of course that of B2 (with the corrections made in C), but as I have said a number of editorial changes were made, for various reasons, but mostly in the quest (somewhat excessively pursued, as I now think) for coherence and consistency with other writings.&quot;<hr></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Welcome back btw. Where've you been?<hr></blockquote>
I didn't go anywhere.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus </A> at: 9/27/00 1:06:12 pm

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

Hmmm. I thought 1945 was well before JRRT thought about revamping his cosmology. I equate Gates of Dawn with Gates of Morn discussed in HoME 4. Also, the Sil. talks about the sun and moon journeying under the earth until the &quot;changing of the world&quot;, p. 101. I know CT used early manuscripts to create the Sil., so I'm open to discussion. My reading of Akallabeth has always been &quot;flat earth&quot; though I'll concede the quotes above are subject to interpretation.

Where does &quot;Anadune&quot; appear? I don't recall reading it. As I've said, I'd like to reconcile JRRT's desire to make his work more scientifically correct with whats published but have difficulty doing so. I reject MM's position that LoTR and the Sil, etc. are &quot;different mythologies&quot;.

BTW, I asked where you had been because for a while you where posting daily, but you didn't for a few days (I missed the one in the Quiz Room).

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

AKALLABETH was the working title of THE FALL OF NUMENOR/THE DROWNING OF ANADUNE.

1945 is the period where he decided to change the conception of the fall in ANADUNE. He wrote it as Sauron's teachings of the world as flat. In the early 1950's he decided to create a mannish sub-mythology within the mythology. This is where ATHRABETH introduces the awakening of men and servitude under Melkor and the conversion of Last Battle to mannish mythology as some items of interest in support of his developing conceptions. QUENDI AND ELDAR is another text in support of these ideas.

The change can be seen in HISTORY Vol. 9 SAURON DEFEATED; THE DROWNING OF ANADUNE (last section of the book), and where it is carried forward thereafter.

As for different mythologies: only if one insists in patently ignoring the later text as canon, but biasly and discriminatorily content to pick and choose desired information selectively from it does it resemble such. Essentially, they are seperated by a minimum of a quarter of a decade and many exponential ideas.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

I agree re: different mythologies. While JRRT was taking different perspectives on his mythos (mannish, elvish, hobbitish) the central mythology remained the same.

I don't have any of the History of the War of the Ring volumes of HoME, partially because of my preference for the Silmarillion, at least as far as exploring beyond what had been published by JRRT himself. When they come out in paperback next month I'll probably pick them up, though I don't know when I'll find time to read them. I'm currently rereading LoTR for the first time in two years after spending a lot of time focusing on HoME. In fact this is the longest I've gone without reading LoTR since I first read it.

It would be interesting to discuss peoples opinions re: perspective on the various works. Clearly, the Hobbit and LoTR are from the Hobbitish perspective with bits filled in by Gondor. The appendices could be either elvish or Gondorian. The Sil. is a toss up.

Mithadan
The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth. </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The appendices could be either elvish or Gondorian. The Sil. is a toss up.<hr></blockquote>
Appendices are a combo of Gondorian text (says so right at the beginning of Appendix A where the sorces are listed and marked in text as 'direct quotations' of Gondorian text, and commentary is by the 'Translator', not hobbits (they really don't intrude upon the appendices except in various 'direct quotes' from Herblore or such).

The SILMARILLION is supposed to be Bilbo's TRANSLATIONS FROM THE ELVISH, appended by text from Gondor concerning mannish tales. AKALLABETH, OF THE RINGS OF POWER THIRD AGE AND THE THIRD AGE are clearly shown to be appendixed to SIL. The sections on Gondolin, Turin, Luthien, and other relevant Mannish tales were supposed to also be appendiced, but were not.


</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Pile o' Bones
Posts: 20


Let us set aside istari (all 5 of them including Pallando and Alatar) and Glorfindel. Remember all this talk that Bilbo was meant to find the ring, thereafter Frodo was meant to carry it's burden? or The quest of Erebor of Unfinished Tales, when Gandalf says, that all his senses were telling him that the fate of all the Arda depended on Bilbo's going on his journey. Who arranged all that, if Valar did not?
Only they could not act openly - one willing his son to learn to walk, must take off his hand and let his son walk.

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

Another good example of a point were the Valar may have helped out during the Third Age, HerenIstarion.

Saulotus - What about Aelfwine? While he disappeared for a while, late letters by JRRT and a short fragment in either HoME 11 or 12 show that Aelfwine had not been abandoned.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

Aelfwine is also named Elendil in the papers you are referring to.

The first essay is signed as such, while the second essay has it in the title.

This is a different concept, as only one man bore the name Elendil after the fall of Numenor.

I could speculate on where this may have eventually gone if you wish, based on the information available.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus </A> at: 9/29/00 2:13:12 pm

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 120</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

If ya ask for the speculation; I PROMISE the answer will come from a direction that ain't been traditionally considered by the masses before.

But then; ain't that my style? Course, I don't hold with conventional Egyptology dating either. Call me radical. I like facts to add up.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1366</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

Then give us a taste o speculation, Seti...uh.. Saulotus.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 121</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

Sure. Ponder this for awhile:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien UNFINISHED TALES; The Line of Elros.
Entry: Vardamir Nolimon
... He was called Nolimon for his chief love was for ancient lore, which he gathered from Elves and Men.

Entry: Tar-Elendil
... He was also called Parmaite, for with his own hands he made many books and legends of the lore gathered by his grandfather.<hr></blockquote>

Thinkin yet?

Especially since this was done around the same time as the two citations for the return of Aelfwine (named as Elendil in the text). Kind of a strange addition there dontcha think?

So; left field or what?

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 132</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

Not left field. In The Lost Road, JRRT goes into a link with Aelfwine/Elendil. Tell more? It is indeed non-traditional.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[HerenIstarion]

by me

when Gandalf says, that all his senses were telling him that the fate of all the Arda depended on Bilbos going on his journey. Who arranged all that, if Valar did not?

well, here is the paragon of how man can change his opinion with the passing of time. I no longer hold as truth that Gandalf's senses were inspired by Valar in this case, but rather by Eru himself

[Carannillion]

Try comparing this to real life. Has God (or Allah or whoever might fit you) abandoned Earth and us humans just because there has not been an "official miracle" the last 2000 years? Many people would disagree. A LOT of people actually. Did the Valar simply pull back a few yards to supervise and adjust instead of keeping direct control?

[Arwen Imladris]

Maybe, like the christian faith, the Valar just gave the people of ME "free will"?

[HerenIstarion]

free will was there all along. compare above posted opinions with those expressed in The halls of mandos and elvish "free will" thread