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Old 07-19-2006, 03:28 PM   #1
alatar
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LotR2-TTT_Seq23

Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. - Proverbs 27:6

Frodo Zombie walks on calmly to some unknown destination in the haunted city of Osgiliath while chaos abounds around him. Sam asks my question, as is this really the time to look for a Starbucks? And where are his guards? Isn’t Faramir concerned that his precious prize for his Pop might get away, or get into someone else’s hands? Brother Boromir didn’t let Frodo so far out of sight, and so methinks that Faramir isn’t as serious about the Ring as his brother. We see Frodo in almost real time atop some wall or tower, then up pops the Winged Nazgul. Its eyeless stare looks directly at Frodo, who then proffers the One Ring. Is he going to hand it over or put it on?

Faramir notices this crazy sight. “Should have sprayed the hobbits with ‘Off-Fell Beast’ repellent.” Frodo begins to get all dreamy-eyed - star gazing in Osgiliath, perhaps? - then makes to place the Ring on his finger. Sam tackles his Master just before the Fell Beast grabs the Ringbearer, and Faramir sinks an arrow into the creature to shoo it off. The Nazgûl, seeing the Ring, is content with almost getting it, and so flies East. Must be low on fuel.

Sam and Frodo bounce and tumble hard to the ground, and then we see that Frodo’s mask is off. He draws Sting and threatens poor faithful Sam. Frodo presses the blade to his companion’s throat, then regains himself and pulls back. Sting drops clangingly from Frodo’s hand, and despair falls upon his soul. He’s tired, constantly in peril and has just threatened the life of the one person truly on his side.

Is it just me or does this scene make no sense? Why would the Nazgûl break off the attack? Why would, in film three, would Sauron think that his One Ring, his Precious, is anywhere near Isengard or Meduseld? Wouldn’t he know that the Ring is now most likely in Minas Tirith? At least that gives him a good reason to assail the place in earnest.

But then wouldn’t his Eye be straining ever towards the path the Frodo must now journey, should he get the chance to travel East? Anyway…

Sam agrees that this is one messed up situation. How do we escape from this fate? Can he stop reading this tale and wake up in his Gaffer’s house?

Sam begins ‘monologuing.’ He makes an excellent speech – very inspirational - while we see the routing of Saruman’s forces at Helm’s Deep. Just in case you missed it, we see more water flooding across Isengard, washing that place clean of the filth.

Sam speaks about the characters in the truly great stories that had the chance to turn back, to turn aside, yet did not, stayed true to the straight and narrow, and that’s what made it such a great story in the end. Something drove those folk onward, and Frodo asks what drives he and Sam. It’s the good in the world, like the Shire, that keeps these two on their tired feet. Howard Shore’s ‘Shire’ theme is heard, and we remember why these two are here.

Gollum looks as if he could cry. Sam’s words have penetrated his black heart deeply. Does he miss sunlight on a green hill, the sight of family and friends and a warm home waiting?

It’s well known that steward’s sons are fools for motivational speeches. Faramir states the he and Frodo now have an understanding, and I have no idea what that means. Faramir is reminded of his duty and the law, yet sets his life aside for honor (I think).

Next week we wrap up part two of Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings trilogy.
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Old 07-19-2006, 05:41 PM   #2
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The Nazgul being at Osgiliath does make sense though, as they are Saurons most feared servants, and it certainly makes the job of the orcs easier when their enemies are cowering in fear due to the screeches of the Wraiths.

Why does the Nazgul stop going for Frodo when the Ring is removed from right in front of it? Precisely because it is removed. The Nazgul cannot see in the real world remember, but only the wraith world, that's why we see them sniffing to begin with, they can't see it but they can sense it. When Sam tackles Frodo they fall too far away for the Nazgul to get a clear sense, and Frodo has now forgotten about the Ring.

As to Faramir's comment about 'understanding each other', I'm not sure of it's meaning either. I suppose it could mean that in overhearing Sam's speech he has realised that the hobbits really are completely selfless, and that destroying the Ring really is the only option. And he finally shows his true colours, or quality, it's nice to see Book Faramir make an appearance.

I love that we see some emotion from Gollum there, where he is actually moved by what Sam says. It reminds me of the bit in the books where he crouches by Frodo, looking like an old hobbit, but this time it is Faramir and not Sam that causes that part of him to be lost forever.

While some of this scene is a little contrived, I am a sucker for motivational speeches myself, and love it from Sam knocking Frodo down onward.
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Old 07-20-2006, 08:54 AM   #3
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I agree that a Nazgûl at Osgiliath is at least plausible. I mean, the city is under attack, and somebody has to lead the soldiers. And who else could do that? Some white, deformed orc? I think not.

I may have to rewatch the scene again, but I always thought that the Nazgûl ceases from Frodo because his fell beast has been shot at. The creature just flies away hurt and dismayed, disobeying his master. Even though the Nazgûl can no longer sense the Ring, knowing that it was there a moment ago would usually make him search even more intense. And without Merry near to throw a bag of vegetables...
Sadly, this unpleasant encounter will not make the Nazgûl fear Gondorian archers in the near future.

As nice as it is to have Book-Faramir at last, I don't get what exactly it is that makes him change his mind, too. Sure we can sense that he didn't really like his decision beforehand, but now he sees Frodo almost handing over the Ring to the Nazgûl and this makes him come to the conclusion: "Hey, let's send this weak creature into Mordor. He will surely take better care of it than the descendants of Westernesse could in Minas Tirith."
Ah, but I guess it's too close to the end of the movie for the moviemakers to spare the time and add sense to this.
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:19 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Macalaure
As nice as it is to have Book-Faramir at last, I don't get what exactly it is that makes him change his mind, too. Sure we can sense that he didn't really like his decision beforehand, but now he sees Frodo almost handing over the Ring to the Nazgûl and this makes him come to the conclusion: "Hey, let's send this weak creature into Mordor. He will surely take better care of it than the descendants of Westernesse could in Minas Tirith."
My understanding is that the intention here is that Faramir finally sees the power and corrupting influence of the Ring and so comes round to understanding why it should be destroyed rather than used against Sauron.

But I agree that it makes little sense that he should conclude that Frodo is the best person to accomplish this on the basis of Frodo's deranged behaviour. Perhaps it was intended, as alatar suggests, that Sam's approach is what instills confidence in him.

As many know, I am able to overlook much in the films that others find inconsistent, implausible or just plain irritating. However, I would have to agree that this particular scene makes little sense and is probably the most ill-thought out adaptation of the three filmsl.
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Old 07-23-2006, 08:47 PM   #5
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Note that I presume the text for this scene, the speech part that is, was taken from the TTT 'The Stairs of Cirith Ungol' chapter, which we won't see until RotK. To me, Sam and Frodo do not have the same mindset as in the movie; in the books, it's more like "things looked bad for Beren too," whereas here it's more "we do it for the Shire." Gollum too is not just sad, but almost repentent - he's old, tired and friendless in a cold land. If only he had someone like Sam - or better, Frodo - at his side. The movie Gollum is sad, but I'm not exactly sure why.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath
The Nazgul being at Osgiliath does make sense though, as they are Saurons most feared servants, and it certainly makes the job of the orcs easier when their enemies are cowering in fear due to the screeches of the Wraiths.
I assume that the Eye has let them cross the river pre-battle? The Gondorians are afraid, but knowing that the Wraiths are on Wings would be a great help to them when the main force of Mordor begins the assault. One might expect Faramir to yell, "Archers!" and the Nazgul would have to fly a bit higher.


Quote:
Why does the Nazgul stop going for Frodo when the Ring is removed from right in front of it? Precisely because it is removed. The Nazgul cannot see in the real world remember, but only the wraith world, that's why we see them sniffing to begin with, they can't see it but they can sense it. When Sam tackles Frodo they fall too far away for the Nazgul to get a clear sense, and Frodo has now forgotten about the Ring.
I guess that these mounts, unlike the dark horses, cannot see. Also one arrow stops them from flying down to the hobbits and taking a bite or two. As Frodo gets all dreamy when the Wraiths appear, I assume that they call to him or that the Ring calls to the Nine. Whichever, I would then assume that the Wraith could have found Frodo easily enough.


Quote:
As to Faramir's comment about 'understanding each other', I'm not sure of it's meaning either. I suppose it could mean that in overhearing Sam's speech he has realised that the hobbits really are completely selfless, and that destroying the Ring really is the only option. And he finally shows his true colours, or quality, it's nice to see Book Faramir make an appearance.
"It all makes sense now," the Steward's son thinks, "and I should let the One Ring go East with a witless halfling that almost handed it to the enemy, his gardener and a schizophrenic punching bag."

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Old 08-31-2006, 06:46 PM   #6
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very late posting on this, BUT re the nazgul/frodo scene

Quote:
Is it just me or does this scene make no sense? Why would the Nazgûl break off the attack? Why would, in film three, would Sauron think that his One Ring, his Precious, is anywhere near Isengard or Meduseld? Wouldn’t he know that the Ring is now most likely in Minas Tirith? At least that gives him a good reason to assail the place in earnest.
This also didn't make sense to me until

1/ I listnened to the director's commentary and he says that he based this scene on the book part in minas morgul where frodo is tempted to give himself away to the lord of the nazgul. So I can kind of (just about) accept this.

plus

2/ I also heard that posted a year or two back (!!!!) on this site that only 7 nazgul were present at the black gate at the end of rotk - therefore as well as the WK being killed, in movie LOTR so was this nazgul and his steed, and therefore they didn't make it back to mordor to inform Sauron that the ring wasn't near isengard but was in osgiliath......
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:09 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Essex
1/ I listnened to the director's commentary and he says that he based this scene on the book part in minas morgul where frodo is tempted to give himself away to the lord of the nazgul. So I can kind of (just about) accept this.
"In the book, the Witch-King does not enter Minas Tirth more than a few footsteps, and then turns back and exits the Gate. Gandalf, astride Shadowfax was there. So we can say that the Witch-King was 'owned' by Gandalf, and so we decided to film a scene where the White Wizard mops the floor with the W-K. It has basis in the books..."


Quote:
2/ I also heard that posted a year or two back (!!!!) on this site that only 7 nazgul were present at the black gate at the end of rotk - therefore as well as the WK being killed, in movie LOTR so was this nazgul and his steed, and therefore they didn't make it back to mordor to inform Sauron that the ring wasn't near isengard but was in osgiliath......
I would like to see the evidence. This so intrigued me that I just scanned through the end of RotK. How anyone counts the Nazgul at the Black Gate is beyond me, as I may have seen four-or five at one (they should have all had different colors). Will look again when they attack Minas Tirith.

Maybe there were only six after the Flood of Bruinen .
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:25 PM   #8
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I don't like Frodo in this scene at all! This is where I really start hateing his guts!
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