The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > The New Silmarillion > Translations from the Elvish - Public Forum
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-24-2017, 04:37 PM   #1
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,301
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Perlude of [b]The Silmarillion[/b]

Before we start anything else we should probabaly discuss this prelude:
Quote:
Quenta Silmarillion
PRE-ED-01 <LQ {Ălfwine's note:
}These histories were written by {Pengolo­}[Pengolodh] the Wise of Gondolin, both in that city before its fall, and afterwards PRE-ED-02{at Tathrobel in the Lonely Isle, ToleressŰa}, PRE-LQ-01{after the return unto the West. In their making he used much the writings of R˙mil the Elfsage of Valinor, chiefly in the annals of Valinor and the account of tongues, and he used also the accounts that are preserved in the Golden Book.}< after the Elves had returned into the West. In their making he used much the writings of Rumil the Elf-sage of Valinor concerning other matters than the wars of Beleriand; and he used also the accounts that are preserved by the Elves of EressŰa in the Golden Book.> PRE-ED-03{The work of Pengolo­ I learned much by heart, and turned into my tongue, some during my sojourn in the West, but most after my return to Britain.
pus cwaep Ălfwine Widlast:
Fela bid on Westwegum werum uncudra,
wundra ond wihta, wlitescyne lond,
eardgeard ylfa ond esa bliss.
Lyt aenig wat hwylc his longad sie
pam pe eftsides yldu getwaefed.
Translator's note:
}The histories are here given in English of this day PRE-ED-03.{, translated from the version of PRE-LQ-02{Eriol}<Ereol> of Leithien, as the Gnomes called him, who was Ălfwine of PRE-LQ-03{Angelcynn}<Angolcynn that is now England>. Such other matters as Ălfwine took direct from the Golden Book, together with his account of his voyage, and his sojourn in ToleressŰa, are given elsewhere.
[Footnote to the text: Specimens (not here) are extant
(a). of the original EressŰan form and script
(b). of the annals as written by Ălfwine in ancient English]}
Here begins the Silmarillion or history of the Silmarils>
Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2017, 11:28 PM   #2
ArcusCalion
Wight
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 232
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
I actually object to 01. Why could these accounts have not been made in Erressea? The Elves came often to Numenor,and the writings of Numenor were what informed the scribes of Gondor and Arnor, of whom came many of Elrond's books of lore which Bilbo translated. I see no reason therefore for 01.

As for 02, what is the source of the replacement passage?
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2017, 07:17 AM   #3
gondowe
Wight
 
gondowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 162
gondowe has just left Hobbiton.
I dont remember if this was dicussed years ago in other threads, but although Eriol/Aelfwine should be the besst way of trasmission, it must be through the Thains Book.
So, in my opinion Aelfwine should be removed and the "Findegils Copy of the Thains Book" with all its contents, should be trasmissed to our days (read Tolkien) through other ways (archeological?).
And in my opinion the trasmision from the elder days should be Rumil, etc--->Pengolod----->Numenor--->Arnor, Gondor----->Hobbits (in all their generations)----> Findegil----->our days.
So, Quenta Silmarillion, Ainulindale, Valaquenta, etc,etc should have a trasmision Rumil,etc----->Pengolod-----> Numenor.
What do you think?
Greetings.
gondowe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2017, 09:21 AM   #4
ArcusCalion
Wight
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 232
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
As I understood it it was Rumil (Annals of Aman, Lhammas, Valaquenta, Ainulindale) --> Pengolodh (Grey Annals, Lhammasathen, Quenta Silmarillion, various lore things) in Erressea using the stories of the returned Exiles --> Numenorean scholars via Eressean Elves --> The Faithful of Numenor (with added Numenorean histories and Akallabeth by Elendil) --> Arnor and Gondor historians (of whom Findegil was chief) --> brought to Imladris and kept as books of lore (some) --> Bilbo translates into Westron --> Becomes the Red Book of Westmarch and Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit is added --> Merry and Pippin and Sam add various Shire and Gondor and Arnor lore tidbits --> Tolkien supposedly discovers and translates into English.

In a side note, there existed also the contemporary Rumil --> Pengolodh --> Aelfwine --> Tolkien path, but this we have decided to ignore.
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2017, 09:49 AM   #5
gondowe
Wight
 
gondowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 162
gondowe has just left Hobbiton.
Findegil is the last because is from Eldarion time in Fourth Age.
Greetings
gondowe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2017, 01:37 PM   #6
ArcusCalion
Wight
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 232
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
aaaah I see thank you gondowe

It is interesting. Our Silmarillion is a combination of Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish and Aelfwine/Eriol's Book of Lost Tales, since we pull from both sources. I think another (interesting and unrelated) project might be to edit all the documents in their separate entirety in order to have them conform to the standard of canon we set out in these TftE. Thus we create a Quenta Silmarillion using only the LQ, QS, and Q documents, simply updating where needed, and an Annals of Aman, Grey Annals, Lhammas, Ambarkanta, Book of Lost Tales, Athrabeth, and all the others as unique and individual documents of lore, all edited separately in order to conform to this canon. A vast (and possibly impossible) undertaking, but one that would no doubt be extremely interesting.

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 11-25-2017 at 01:41 PM.
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2017, 01:29 PM   #7
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,301
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Sorry, I didn't put any comments about the changes online. That would have explained some questions:

PRE-ED-01: We decised to remove Ălfwine, so he has to go here.

PRE-ED-02: I agree to ArcusCalion that this is probabaly a bit overdone, but for the sack of safety I would still say removal might be better.

PRE-LQ-01: Here my editing could be clearer. This is actually a change done by Tolkien himself in the last version he left us.

PRE-ED-03: I used this editing mark two times by accident. I will change the second to PRE-ED-04. But both changes have the same reasoning behind them: they are again Ălfwine speaking, which we have to remove.

PRE-QL-02 & PRE-QL-03: These document changes that Tolkien did, but they are removed by our editing.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2017, 01:50 PM   #8
ArcusCalion
Wight
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 232
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
I would say for the PRE-ED-02 that there is really no reason to remove it, even for the idea of "safety."
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:32 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.