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Old 02-02-2005, 03:29 AM   #41
Findegil
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RD-EX-77.5:
I am okay with "for" -> "since"

§51d:
The symetrie of the warnings is a good argument which I did not consider. we will skip the cruse by the blood stain. But your editing does skip the comma which I think is grammatically needed:
Quote:
§51d (§331) ... But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold {and the [? staining] of blood in the king's halls}, ‘and yet another and more potent curse, whose arising I know not, is woven therewith,’ said she, ‘nor methinks was the labour of the Dwarves free from spells of the most enduring malice.’ ...
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Old 07-15-2006, 04:19 AM   #42
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When we made the addition from [bRos[/b] and the Shibboleth we missed a footnote, which I think should be taken:
Quote:
§316 (§43a) TN Now the Dwarfroad to Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the {River Gelion}[Duin Daer], where aforetime were the hunting grounds of {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], {sons}son of Fëanor. To the south of those lands between the {river Gelion}[Duin Daer] and the mountains lay the land of Ossiriand, watered by seven streams, {Gelion}[Duin Daer], Ascar, Thalos, Legolin, Brilthor, Duilwen, Adurant. There lived and wandered still in peace and bliss Beren and Lúthien, in that time of respite which Lúthien had won, ere both should die; and their folk were the Green Elves of the South, who were not of the Elves of {Cor}[Tirion], nor of Doriath, though many had fought at the [First] Battle of {Unnumbered Tears}[Beleriand].> But Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Lúthien remained Elves called it oft {Gwenh-i-cuina }[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live RD-EX-66 <Sil77 ; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel;><Shibboloth and beside one great waterfall , called in Sindarin Lanthir Lamath ('waterfall of echoing voices'), Dior had his house.><Ros Dior{ their son}, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's <editorial addition , the Bëorian of Dorthonion>, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doritah. For he said: 'I am the first of the Pereðil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the Eluchíl.' He gave to his elder son the name Eluréd, that is said to have the same sigificance, but ended in the Bëorian word rêda 'heir'; to his second son he gave the name Elurín[footnote: ‘Remembrance of Elu’: containing Sindarin rín from Common Eldarin rēnē < base REN ‘recall, have in mind’.], but his daugther the name Elwing For she was born on a clear night of stars, the light of which glittered in the spray of the waterfall by which his house was built. The word wing was Bëorian, meaning fine rain or the spray from fountains and waterfalls blown by a wind; but he joined this to Elvish el- 'star' rather than to the Bëorian, because it was more beautiful, and also went with the names of her brothers: the name Elwë (Sindarin Elu) was believed to be and probably was drived from el 'star'.> RD-EX-67 <TN {and Auredhir was}And [Eluréd and Elurín ]were most like to {his}their forefather Beren, and all loved {him}them, yet none so dearly as did Dior; but Elwing the fairy have all poesies named as beautiful as Tinúviel if that indeed may be, yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the {elfin}[elven] folk of yore.>
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:23 PM   #43
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RD-SL-27: Coming back to the discussion about where the battle toke place. There is one new information so it might be considered very thin. In his new book Beren and Lúthien Christopher Tolkien does not provide any new texts, but he gives some comments and some interisting editing. Normaly Christopher Tolkien does in this book not introduce changes to the texts, so that very old names like 'Tinwelint and Gwendeling' stand beside new once like 'Thingol and Melian'. But then we come to the last part of Berens story and the book, where his fight against Naugladur is described. Again old Names like 'Glómund' or 'Lamp of Faëry' for the Silmaril are allowed to stand. But on change in the course of the narrative is done, so not consequently. It starts with an editorial replacement (marked as such) in the first sentence:
Quote:
Now came all that host [to the river Ascar], and their array was thus; ...
In the original LT text this reads:
Quote:
Now came all that host to the banks of Aros, and their array was thus; ...
And in the LT the battle was at the ford over the River Aros that marked the southern boundary of Artanor. And in the rest of the extract from LT the name 'Aros' is allowed to stand.

What this showes, in my oppinion, is that for Christopher Tolkien the ford that was the palce of Berens last fight was that over the river Ascar and not that over Gelion/Duin Daer as we used it. If it changes something or not is up to the farther discussion of this case. But at least I think this is worth considering the case again.

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P.S.: This is the only case that I could find in Beren and Lúthien that is worth mentioning for the project.
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Old 09-17-2017, 11:53 PM   #44
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I would say that this is merely his opinion, as he presents no new information to back up that change, and he has been known to make mistakes of this kind before.
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Old 09-18-2017, 04:16 PM   #45
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No question that is only Christopher Tolkiens opinion. I never said otherwise. But in a case like this, where we long debated and did take the decision in the end based on the feeling of the participants of the discussion, Christopher’s opinion is at least worth notice.

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Old 11-02-2018, 02:41 PM   #46
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As I posted in the other thread Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin, the footnote of CT in Beren and Lúthien is troubling in its implications for this text:
Quote:
A later version of the story concerning the Nauglamír told that it had been made by craftsmen of the Dwarves long before for Felagund, and that it was the sole treasure that Húrin brought from Nargothrond and gave to Thingol. The task that Thingol then set the Dwarves was to remake the Nauglamír and in it to set the Silmaril that was in his possession. This is the form of the story in the published Silmarillion.
I am unsure if there was proof of there being an extant story of this nature before this, but if there was and it was discussed then I apologize for bringing this up again.
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Old 11-03-2018, 02:50 PM   #47
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RD-SL-27: I've just read through our discussion of this from years ago, and it is such an obscure and complex issue that I can easily believe that a reasonable person could come to either conclusion based on the evidence we have. In the end, I still think I agree with the conclusion we adopted. But I am still far from 100% certain about this conclusion. Christopher Tolkien's opinion is obviously not to be simply discounted, but without any new evidence I don't see any particular reason to change our conclusion. I remain unsure, though, and could certainly be persuaded by a strong argument one way or the other.

About the Nauglamir:

This is indeed puzzling and has potentially very important repurcussions for our text. In particular, I find it difficult to reconcile this statement with two things from "The Wanderings of Hurin".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Tolkien
For the story of the Nauglamîr and the destruction of Doriath, the fall of Gondolin, the attack on the Havens, we must return through more than a quarter of a century to the Quenta Noldorinwa (Q), or beyond.
This would seem to state that no version of that story later than Q exists.

Quote:
Some interesting remarks of my father's concerning The Wanderings of Húrin are found on the back of one of the slips on which Professor Clyde Kilby wrote comments and criticisms of the work:

"The criticisms seem to me largely mistaken - no doubt because this is a fragment of a great saga, e.g. Thingol and Melian are mentioned as objects of Morgoth's malice, because Húrin's next exploit will be to bring ruin to Doriath. The outlaws are not a 'device', but already accounted for - and play a part in the story of Túrin when he came to Dor Lómin. Húrin does pick them up again and they are the nucleus of the force with which he goes to Nargothrond and slays Mîm and seizes the gold of the dragon.

As for 'too little action,' 'too much speech', I have re-read this quite impersonally after many years when I had practically forgotten it - the speeches are bitter and pungent and in themselves exciting. I thought the whole business from the entry of Húrin not only moving but very exciting."

The reference to Thingol and Melian arose from Professor Kilby's taking exception to their only being mentioned in one place (p. 259). The response that his remarks (written, I believe, in 1966) elicited is particularly interesting in that they show that the story of Húrin's seizing the treasure of Nargothrond was still fully in being, although my father never even approached it again. Very striking is his phrase, 'Húrin's next exploit will be to bring ruin to Doriath'.
This indicates that, at least as of 1966, Tolkien intended Hurin to be accompanied by a band of men on the journey to Nargothrond and, since he "seizes the gold of the dragon", it would certainly seem that at this point it is the full hoard, not just the Nauglamir, that is brought to Doriath.

In the absence of any further evidence of this "later story", I don't think it would be wise for us to change the story here.
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Old 11-04-2018, 01:24 AM   #48
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I agree with your conclusion because, as you say, CT has provided no documentation to back up his comments in B&L and the Sil77 story, so it is clearly safer to go with the earlier story in as much as keeping the outlaws and hoard and such. However, in the current text as it exists we have provided no story of the Nauglamír's creation. Might we then take only that part from the Sil77 version while keeping the rest the same?
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Old 11-04-2018, 12:32 PM   #49
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But if we discount this statement by Christopher Tolkien without further evidence, then shouldn't we keep the story that the Nauglamir was not made until Thingol commissioned the Dwarves to craft the gold?
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Old 11-04-2018, 12:53 PM   #50
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My bad, I didn't notice the story was already included. In the current draft, it reads thus:
Quote:
Many things were told of that most glorious thing. Not only was it wrought with the greatest skill and subtlety in the world but it had an enchanted power, and there was no throat so great or so slender whereon it sat not with grace and loveliness. Albeit a weight beyond belief of gold was used in the making, lightly it hung upon its wearer as a strand of flax; and all such as clasped it about their necks seemed, as it hung upon their breasts, to be of goodly countenance, and women seemed most fair. Gems uncounted were there in that carcanet of gold, yet only as a setting that did prepare for its great central glory, and led the eye thereto, for amidmost hung like a little lamp of limpid fire the Silmaril of Fëanor, jewel of the Valar. Yet alas, even had that gold of Nargothrond held no evil spell still had that carcanet been a thing of little luck, for the Dwarves were full of bitterness, and all its links were twined with baleful thoughts.
Now however did they bear it before the king in its new-gleaming splendour; and then was the joy of Thingol king of the woodland Elves come to its crowning, and he cast the Nauglamír about his throat, and straightway the curse of Mîm fell upon him. ...
Should we include something along the lines of 'It was called the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves.' just so we formally name the necklace. As it is, it seems a little awkward to me.
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Old 11-04-2018, 01:32 PM   #51
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I came to this thread after have went for an updating in my structure.
I had readed this note from CT when read Beren and Luthien, but I think my mind didn't want to assume.
The main thing is to assume that there is an unpublished text that CT never showed us.
If this is assumed, so we MUST change things in our texts.

Editing: On the other hand, It would be a step back from CT in what he said in the famous note on the chapter of the ruin of Doriath in Sil77 published in WotJ that everybody knows.
(I'm going to be evil: can anybody have access to a modern edition of TWotJ, to see if that famous note was erased, of course not by CT decision, but editorial decision?)

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Old 11-05-2018, 12:40 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcusCalion
Should we include something along the lines of 'It was called the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves.' just so we formally name the necklace. As it is, it seems a little awkward to me.
Oh, I see - we somehow never name the necklace when it first appears. I would have no real objection to adding something like what you suggest. Though if it is not named when first made in the LT text, perhaps we should leave it that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gondowe
I came to this thread after have went for an updating in my structure.
I had readed this note from CT when read Beren and Luthien, but I think my mind didn't want to assume.
The main thing is to assume that there is an unpublished text that CT never showed us.
If this is assumed, so we MUST change things in our texts.
Yes, but I think the two main issues are:

1. Christopher Tolkien doesn't tell us what this presumed text says or when it dates from.
2. The statement in Beren and Luthien appears to contradict what Christopher Tolkien said in HoMe XI.

1 means that even if we wanted to follow this text, we would not know exactly how to implement it, other than lifting text directly from QS77. 2 means that at some point, either in HoMe XI or in Beren and Luthien, CT apparently made a mistaken statement about this. What he says in HoMe XI is backed up by the texts given there. The fact that we have in B&L only this one mention of a text otherwise uncited suggests that it's at least possible that CT was mistaken in his statement there.

In the end, I just think that this one contradictory statement is awfully shaky ground on which to make such a major change.
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Old 11-05-2018, 01:51 PM   #53
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The original Lost Tale reads thus:
Quote:
These things were of Ufedhin's cunning, but the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for Tinwelint, and a belt of gold.
Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: "All is not finished," and Ufedhin made a silver crown for Gwenniel, and aided by the Dwarves contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds, and the silver thereof was fashioned in delicate scales, so that it yielded as soft leather to the foot, and a girdle he made too of silver blended with pale gold. Yet were those things but a tithe of their works, and no tale tells a full count of them. Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said Ufedhin: "O Tinwelint, richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?" And he said: "Yea"; but Ufedhin said: "Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold remaineth still, for we have husbanded it, having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would make thee a carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the Nauglafring, the Necklace of the Dwarves." Then again did Tinwelint doubt Ufedhin's purpose, yet did he yield the boon, an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.
This was taken up into the draft text thus:
Quote:
And the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and a belt of gold. Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: ‘All is not finished,’ and {Ufedhin}they made a silver crown for {Gwenniel}[Melian], and{ aided by the Dwarves }they contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds, and the silver thereof was fashioned in delicate scales, so that it yielded as soft leather to the foot, and a girdle {he}they made too of silver blended with pale gold. Yet were those things but a tithe of their works, and no tale tells a full count of them.>
§299 (§28d) RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were {more} wondrous>. RD-EX-40 <TN Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}they said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold {remaineth still, for} we {have husbanded it}did husband, {having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would}to make thee a carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we {desire}desired that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves.{ Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the Nauglafring, the Necklace of the Dwarves.}’>
The last part was removed, because according to the structure of the chapter as it was laid out, the work has at this point already been finished. However this structure is not ideal for two reasons. 1. No point is made about Thingol handing the Silmaril over to them to be added into the necklace, and even tho it is said that he sits beside them as they work on the necklace, it is in this scene presented as if it were a surprise to him. I see no real reason why we cannot keep the two stages of the treasure making present in the Lost Tales, with the Nauglamir being the second stage. Maybe like this:
Quote:
... be wanting in your labor, and a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the end.’> {§297 (§28a)} RD-EX-36b <TN Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think.>
§298 (§28c) RD-EX-37 <TN A golden crown they made for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], who yet had worn nought but a wreath of scarlet leaves, and a helm too most glorious they fashioned; and a sword of {dwarfen}[dwarven] steel brought from afar was hilted with bright gold and damascened in gold and silver with strange figurings wherein was pictured clear the wolf-hunt of {Karkaras Knife-fang, father of}[Carcharoth, the Red Maw greatest of all] wolves. RD-EX-38 {That was a more wonderful sword than any Tinwelint had seen before, and outshone the sword in Ufedhin's belt the king had coveted. These things wereof Ufedhin's cunning, but}And the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and a belt of gold. Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: ‘All is not finished,’ and {Ufedhin}they made a silver crown for {Gwenniel}[Melian], and{ aided by the Dwarves }they contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds, and the silver thereof was fashioned in delicate scales, so that it yielded as soft leather to the foot, and a girdle {he}they made too of silver blended with pale gold. Yet were those things but a tithe of their works, and no tale tells a full count of them.>
§299 (§28d) RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were {more} wondrous>. RD-EX-40 <TN Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}they said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold remaineth still, for we have husbanded it, having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would make thee a carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’ Then {again} did {Tinwelint}[Thingol] doubt {Ufedhin's}their purpose, yet did he yield the boon, an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.>
RD-EX-40.5 <TN
Now after a time of rest was that last smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses{, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.> RD-EX-36.5 <QS77 Long was their labor; and Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies, and sat ever among them as they worked{.}><editorial addition on the necklace.>
§300 (§28f) RD-EX-42 <TN {None are that yet live,' quoth Ailios,' 'who have seen that most glorious thing, save only' Littleheart son of Bronweg, yet are many things told thereof.}[Many things were told of that most glorious thing.] Not only was it wrought with the greatest skill and subtlety in the world but it had a magic power, and there was no throat so great or so slender whereon it sat not with grace and loveliness. Albeit a weight beyond belief of gold was used in the making, lightly it hung upon its wearer as a strand of flax; and all such as clasped it about their necks seemed, as it hung upon their breasts, to be of goodly countenance, and women seemed most fair. Gems uncounted were there in that carcanet of gold, yet only as a setting that did prepare for its great central glory, and led the eye thereto, for amidmost hung like a little lamp of limpid fire the Silmaril of Fëanor, jewel of the {Gods}[Valar]. Yet alas, even had that gold of {the Rodothlim}[Nargothrond] held no evil spell still had that carcanet been a thing of little luck, for the Dwarves were full of bitterness, and all its links were twined with baleful thoughts.>
§301 (§28g) RD-EX-43 <TN {Now}Then however did they bear it before the king in its new-gleaming splendour; and then was the joy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] king of the woodland Elves come to its crowning, and he cast the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] about his throat, and straightway the curse of Mîm fell upon him. Then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘Now, O Lord, that thou art pleased beyond thy hope, perchance thou wilt grant the craftsmen thy kingly reward, and suffer them to depart also in joy to their own lands.’>
This way we keep everything necessary, while maintaining the flow better. Thoughts?

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Old 11-10-2018, 12:24 PM   #54
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This looks good to me. On small note is that looking again at RD-EX-36.5, I don't think the editorial addition is actually needed. It's clear from the previous paragraph that they are working on the necklace.

But I think your idea of retaining the two stages of treasure making is good, as it better retains the structure of the Lost Tale and I don't see any of the later, very brief, accounts as contradicting it.
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Old 11-10-2018, 05:26 PM   #55
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I have re-read a great deal in this thread and in the story line discussion, but it seems that we never discussed that note in BL explicitly. The fitting editing mark in the story line discussion was FD-SL-13.
Anyhow I agree with Aiwendil: the note contradicts strongly with what Christopher Tolkien had written in HoME XI and since HoME XI is rather a work of research in the textual history in comparison to BL, I wonder how serious we can take that note from BL.
For reason of comparision we might look to the Narn texts: from UT and all HoME versions it is made clear by Christopher Tolkien that farther texts are extant, so what we find then in The Children of Húrin his take at this farther texts. In that full narrative we can find passages that are clearly based on these unpublished sources. Compared to that in BL we have only compiled extracts from already published sources and some very few and some times a bit obscure editorial notes, like the one we discuss here. If the note is really based on some unpublished source, why doesn't Christopher take the opportunity to give it in full?
I am inclined to think that the note is rather based on a false memory.

About the making of the Nauglamír in Menegroth: As our story goes Thingol explicitly ask the Dwarves to make for him a necklace 'whereon to hang the Silmaril' [see the end of RD-EX-29]. In this part our story line was strictly based on Q30, therefore the two waves of smith work by the dwarves was rejected by intention. We might reinstall it, but as Thingol already gave the task of making the Nauglamír to the Dwraves I don’t think the conversation can stand as Arcus Calion gave it.
The naming of the necklace Comes in the Moment when Thingol wears it for the first time only one § later. For me that is a fitting place to give the Name. By the way, any reader will guess that name at once since the title of the chapter gives it away.

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Old 11-12-2018, 03:40 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
About the making of the Nauglamír in Menegroth: As our story goes Thingol explicitly ask the Dwarves to make for him a necklace 'whereon to hang the Silmaril' [see the end of RD-EX-29]. In this part our story line was strictly based on Q30, therefore the two waves of smith work by the dwarves was rejected by intention. We might reinstall it, but as Thingol already gave the task of making the Nauglamír to the Dwraves I don’t think the conversation can stand as Arcus Calion gave it.
The naming of the necklace Comes in the Moment when Thingol wears it for the first time only one § later. For me that is a fitting place to give the Name. By the way, any reader will guess that name at once since the title of the chapter gives it away.
You're right; I didn't review our text sufficiently. I think the two phases of smithying could be retained (i.e. I don't think it's necessarily contradicted by more authoritative sources), but I don't think it has to be. So I'm fine with staying with the version we have.
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Old 11-12-2018, 04:57 PM   #57
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I see the difficulty, but I still have two points.

1) I found it jarring the way the name of the necklace is introduced in our text. Can we at least say
Quote:
.. and he cast the {Nauglafrin}[Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves] around his throat ..
This, for me, keeps the title and makes it more introductory. It's introduced this way in Lost Tales, with its translation.

2) For me the text as it stands is odd: the Dwarves present the Nauglamir as if it was a surprise, but it was essentially the driving force of Thingol's contract with them, and was there watching them make it. Why then do they have to explain that they kept a part of gold in order to make a necklace. I suppose they could simply be being ceremonial, but it seems odd to me. Perhaps I am simply reading into it too much.
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Old 11-13-2018, 12:39 PM   #58
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First a word of doubt about the matter of the making of the Nauglamír by the Dwarves long before for Finrod Felagund: In HoME XI, The Tale of the Years; Note on Chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath Christopher Tolkien starts with the following sentence:
Quote:
Apart from a few matters of detail in texts and notes that have not been published, …
In view of this the note in BL suggests that one such unpublished note does contain the story that the Nauglamír was made for Fleagund and that this necklace only was taken to Doriath by Húrin. If that is true, than time of writing of that note relative to the versions of the Tale of the Year would be important for us. But as we don’t have that timing, we must decide otherwise. And the only hint that I can find is what Christopher told in the rest of the Note on Chapter 22. There he himself finds it most likely that his father would have reinstalled the band of Húrin to transport the hord of Glaurung to Doriath. Therefore I still think we have taken the right decision.

Now to the matter of the second smthying, I can see the oddness of the naming, as why should it be the Necklace of the Dwarves when all the stones and specially the Silmaril are elvish? And yes the flow of Arcus Calion’s version is better. In addition if, as Aiwendil put it, the two phases of smithying are not ‘contradicted by more authoritative sources’ we actually have to retain them.
But as I mentioned the dwarves can at the end of the first phase not ask Thingol for the allowance to smith the Nauglamír as a ‘boon’, since he already ordered them to make it. Nonetheless seems it very fitting to me that the Dwarves should first show their talent on lesser works and then ask Thingol to deliver the Silmaril since now they would like to start that work he had asked for. And in that way we as well get a chance to reinstall Thingols request to be present while the dwarves made the necklace:
Quote:
§294 (§24b) RD-EX-29 <TN Again looked {Tinwelint}[Thingol] upon the gold, and it shone yet more alluring fair, nor ever had the sparkle of the gems seemed so brilliant>. Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon gold began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth. Wherefore he summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod{ and Belegost}, that they might fashion the gold and silver and the gems (for {much}[a part] was yet unwrought) into countless vessels and fair things; and a marvellous necklace of great beauty they should make, whereon to hang the Silmaril.> RD-EX-30 <QS77 For as the years passed Thingol’s thought turned unceasingly to the jewel of Fëanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his inmost treasury; and he was minded now to bear it with him always, waking and sleeping.>
§295 (§26) RD-EX-31 <QS77 In those days the Dwarves still came on their journeys into Beleriand from their mansions in Ered Lindon, and passing over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] at {Sarn }Athrad[ Daer], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}, they travelled the ancient road to Doriath; for their skill in the working of metal and stone was very great, and there was much need of their craft in the halls of Menegroth. But they came now no longer in small parties as aforetime, but in great companies well armed for their protection in the perilous lands between Aros and {Gelion}[Duin Daer] RD-EX-32 {; and they dwelt in Menegroth at such times in chambers and smithies set apart for them}. At that{ very} time great craftsmen of Nogrod RD-EX-33 {were lately come}came into Doriath{; and}[ at] the King’s { therefore summoning them }summons, and he declared to them his desire>.
§296 (§27) But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril. RD-EX-35 <TN But as yet {the}their <editorial bridge treacherous> designs{ of Ufedhin} came to nought, for in no wise would {Tinwelint}[Thingol] suffer {or him or those of} the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] to depart to Nogrod with or without {that}[any] portion of the unwrought gold that yet remained, and he said: ‘How shall it be thought that after the weariness of your{ burdened} journeys hither I should let you so soon be gone, to noise the lack of courtesy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] abroad in Nogrod? Stay now awhile and rest and feast, and afterward shall ye have the gold that remains to work your pleasure on; nor shall aught of help that I or my folk may afford be wanting in your labour, and a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the end.’>
§297 (§28a) RD-EX-36 <TN Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest was that{ last} smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses{, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.>
§298 (§28c) RD-EX-37 <TN A golden crown they made for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], who yet had worn nought but a wreath of scarlet leaves, and a helm too most glorious they fashioned; and a sword of {dwarfen}[dwarven] steel brought from afar was hilted with bright gold and damascened in gold and silver with strange figurings wherein was pictured clear the wolf-hunt of {Karkaras Knife-fang, father of}[Carcharoth, the Red Maw greatest of all] wolves. RD-EX-38 {That was a more wonderful sword than any Tinwelint had seen before, and outshone the sword in Ufedhin's belt the king had coveted. These things wereof Ufedhin's cunning, but}And the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and a belt of gold. Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: ‘All is not finished,’ and {Ufedhin}they made a silver crown for {Gwenniel}[Melian], and{ aided by the Dwarves }they contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds, and the silver thereof was fashioned in delicate scales, so that it yielded as soft leather to the foot, and a girdle {he}they made too of silver blended with pale gold. Yet were those things but a tithe of their works, and no tale tells a full count of them.>
§299 (§28d) RD-EX-39b <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were more wondrous far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the {Rodothlim}[Elves of Narogthrond] wrought of old. Cups and goblets did the king behold, and some had double bowls or curious handles interlaced, and horns there were of strange shape, dishes and trenchers, flagons and ewers, and all appurtenances of a kingly feast. Candlesticks there were and sconces for the torches, and none might count the rings and armlets, the bracelets and collars, and the coronets of gold; and all these were so subtly made and so cunningly adorned that {Tinwelint}[Thingol] was glad beyond the hope of {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves].>
RD-EX-40 <TN Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}they said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold remaineth still, for we have husbanded it {having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would}to make thee {a}that carcanet thou has asked for and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we beg of thee to let us have now that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’
Then{ again} did {Tinwelint}[Thingol] doubt {Ufedhin's}[their] purpose, yet did he yield the {boon}[Silmaril], an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.>
RD-EX-40.5b <TN But {they}[the Dwarves] knew nonetheless that they were prisoners, and trying the exits privily found them strongly warded.{ Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest}Thus was that last smithying begun{ in a deep place of Tinwelint’s abode ' which he caused to be set apart for their uses}, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied{, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.> RD-EX-36.5b <QS77 Long was their labour; and Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies, and sat ever among them as they worked.>
§300 (§28f) RD-EX-42 <TN {None are that yet live,' quoth Ailios,' 'who have seen that most glorious thing, save only' Littleheart son of Bronweg, yet are many things told thereof.}[Many things were told of that most glorious thing.] Not only was it wrought with the greatest skill and subtlety in the world but it had a magic power, and there was no throat so great or so slender whereon it sat not with grace and loveliness. Albeit a weight beyond belief of gold was used in the making, lightly it hung upon its wearer as a strand of flax; and all such as clasped it about their necks seemed, as it hung upon their breasts, to be of goodly countenance, and women seemed most fair. Gems uncounted were there in that carcanet of gold, yet only as a setting that did prepare for its great central glory, and led the eye thereto, for amidmost hung like a little lamp of limpid fire the Silmaril of Fëanor, jewel of the {Gods}[Valar]. Yet alas, even had that gold of {the Rodothlim}[Nargothrond] held no evil spell still had that carcanet been a thing of little luck, for the Dwarves were full of bitterness, and all its links were twined with baleful thoughts.>
§301 (§28g) RD-EX-43 <TN Now however did they bear it before the king in its new-gleaming splendour; and then was the joy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] king of the woodland Elves come to its crowning, and he cast the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] about his throat, and straightway the curse of Mîm fell upon him. Then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘Now, O Lord, that thou art pleased beyond thy hope, perchance thou wilt grant the craftsmen thy kingly reward, and suffer them to depart also in joy to their own lands.’>
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Old 11-13-2018, 10:14 PM   #59
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For me this is perfect! It addresses all the concerns and flows far better than the original. I only have one gripe, and it is a new one:
Quote:
yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were more wondrous far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the {Rodothlim}[Elves of Narogthrond] wrought of old.
This for me cannot work. We have said in other places that Finrod brought the most treasure out of Valinor, and so this can hardly be compatible. Therefore I think we should remove the later half of the sentence:
Quote:
yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were {more} wondrous {far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the Rodothlim wrought of old}.
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Old 11-19-2018, 01:21 PM   #60
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This looks good to me. I also think ArcusCalion is probably right that we must remove this reference to the scantiness of the treasure of Nargothrond.

One small correction. In RD-EX-40:

Quote:
thou has asked for
Should be:

Quote:
thou hast asked for
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Old 11-20-2018, 06:07 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
First a word of doubt about the matter of the making of the Nauglamír by the Dwarves long before for Finrod Felagund: In HoME XI, The Tale of the Years; Note on Chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath Christopher Tolkien starts with the following sentence:Apart from a few matters of detail in texts and notes that have not been published, …
In view of this the note in BL suggests that one such unpublished note does contain the story that the Nauglamír was made for Fleagund and that this necklace only was taken to Doriath by Húrin. If that is true, than time of writing of that note relative to the versions of the Tale of the Year would be important for us. But as we don’t have that timing, we must decide otherwise. And the only hint that I can find is what Christopher told in the rest of the Note on Chapter 22. There he himself finds it most likely that his father would have reinstalled the band of Húrin to transport the hord of Glaurung to Doriath. Therefore I still think we have taken the right decision.
I had not re-read that sentence in TWotJ, so I want to say one thought:

I also think that the band of Húrin with the whole treasure carried to Menegroth and the making of the Nauglamir there (not in Nargothrond) is the best solution and is the one I want to follow. But, taking that CT reaffirms,in 2017, the solution taken in Sil77, I don't know if we are correct.
I mean that possibly CANON Sli77 is fixed by CT NOW.
Thougts?

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Old 11-20-2018, 01:41 PM   #62
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I agree to both changes, the one in RD-EX-40 ‘thou has asked for’ => ‘thou hast asked for’ and the one in RD-EX-39 concerning the scanty treasure of Nargothrond. (Actually I think we discussed that one before and the reinstallation was a mistake of mine during the editing of the new passage.)

Posted by gondowe:
Quote:
But, taking that CT reaffirms, in 2017, that solution taken in SIL77, I don’t know if we are correct. I mean that possibly CANON Sil77 is fixed by CT NOW.
Christopher Tolkien has made very clear that we will never see a substantially updated ‘Silmarillion’ from him. If that makes Sil77 to canon, than most of our work is void and useless.
That said, I can nonetheless see your argument. But I don’t see it in that way:
For me the note in BL is rather a ‘justification’ than a ‘reaffirmation’ for the version in Sil77. A reaffirmation or even confirmation would have been if Christopher Tolkien would have included the note with the Nauglamír made in Nargothrond and so on, as a component of the story as reconstructed in BL. But that is exactly what he didn’t. He rather follows his own suggestion how his father would have handled the story, that he uttered in HoME XI as far as the existing texts allow.
But alas, it is a rather complex matter. In BL Christopher Tolkien does not use (as we do in our version or he does in HoME and Sil77) short notes to reconstruct the story. The components used in BL are rather long excerpts of full texts that are minimally edited.
So some doubts remain, but I still think we have strong and just arguments for the version we created.

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Old 11-20-2018, 03:32 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
, but I still think we have strong and just arguments for the version we created.

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Yes, so do I.
But my doubts are that possibly that note exists and the story used in Sil77 (I mean of canon Im speaking only inthis matter) I insist, is reaffirmed.
Im thinking in those people who potentially read our versions, and could be confused about an authorised modern book compared with ours.
Don´t know. Are my doubts, fears, thougts...

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Old 11-23-2018, 02:44 PM   #64
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Maybe I was not clear enough in my last post, so I will try again:
- Yes, I believe that a note exists that contains the story of the Nauglamír made for Felagund and being the sole treasure brought from Nargothrond to Menegroth by Húrin. For easier and clearer farther reference let us name that note ‘text X’.
- Yes, I agree that the confirmed existence of ‘text X’ gives more weight to the version of the story told in the Sil77.
- And it is clear that if, we come to the conclusion, that this version of the story, is to be taken, the actual text of Sil77 is the one and only option, because it is the best representation of the content of ‘text X’ that we have.
But as we don’t have any farther information about ‘text X’ and its timing or circumstances of writing or anything else concerning it, we must base our decision about it on something else. For me it seems that, the only choice we have as measure for that judgment is the treatment of ‘text X’ by Christopher Tolkien.
So how does Christopher Tolkien treat ‘text X’:
A) Christopher Tolkien used in the years 1974-75 ‘text X’ as basis for the story in Sil77.
B) He does not give ‘text X’ in HoME. Even in HoME XI; A note on chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath (published in 1994), where a very fitting place would have been for it, he does not more than hinting very unspecific to ‘a few matters of detail in texts and notes that have not been published’. So what he did was summarizing the story as found in Sil77, so that the features of ‘text X’ are given together with features for which ‘there is no authority whatever in my father's [JRR Tolkien’s] own writings’.
C) He does mention its existence and content of ‘text X’ in the footnote in BL (published 2017), but does not give it in full nor base the story told in that book on its content.
As can be expected B) gives some background information on A):
b1) Christopher Tolkien speculates that JRR Tolkien ‘ would have reintroduced the outlaws from the old Tales (II.113-15, 222-3) as the bearers of the treasure’. Which means, that Christopher Tolkien thinks that his father would not have used the content of ‘text X’ for his ‘final’ story. This speculations is backed up by late (1966) writings concerned with The Wanderings of Húrin.
b2) Christopher Tolkien confirms that there had been much ‘experimentation among alternative conceptions’ and that the final text of Sil77owes much to my [Christopher Tolkien’s] discussions with him [Guy Gavriel Kay]’. Guy Gavriel Kay was for sure NOT onboard of these discussions due to his special knowledge about the textual history of the story or his good judgments about what JRR Tolkien would have done – for such matters Christopher Tolkien was for sure the better judge. Mr. Kay told us in an interview with The Guardian that Christopher Tolkien ‘saw the editing process in the classic ‘senior academic working with the bright young graduate student’ way, which is the template for so much academic work.’ Nonetheless since Mr. Kay became later a fantasy author, his input was most probably on the ‘literary value’ of the ‘alternative conceptions’.
In the end C) Indeed changes some possible interpretations of B) and has to be interpreted in itself:
c1) Since C) does confirm the existence of ‘text X’ the first major criticism utter in B) that, the story in Sil77is fundamentally changed, to a form for which in certain essential features there is no authority whatever in my father's [JRR Tolkien’s] own writings’, does not apply to the features told in ‘text X’ (Nauglamír made for Felagund in Nargothrond, Nauglamír being the sole treasure brought to Menegroth by Húrin). (As we discussed that matter first before the publication of BL, I think we all based on the second part of B) were under the impression that there was no ‘text X’ in existence.)
c2) As well as the first criticism (see c1)) the last, that with creating the story as given in Sill77 he was ‘[i]far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function[/b]’, does not apply to the features of ‘text X’, since C) does confirm the existence of ‘text X’ and choosing between alternative texts is the function of an editor.
c3) In BL Christopher Tolkien for the first time edits the presented story as ‘history in sequence’ as he named it. That makes the text together with the note fully ambivalent of what was the ‘true’ story.

All that ‘facts’ collected, what do I make out of it?
The clear statement of C) is that using the text of Sil77 in the matter of the Nauglamír and what part of the Nargothrond treasure came to Doriath is an reasonable option for us (which it had not been before). But in b1) I see a hint that ‘text X’ was older than 1966, otherwise the features of ‘text X’ would have been a way out of the difficulties that the story as told in Q30 represent. As we do with writings of JRR Tolkien, we as well should do with such of Christopher Tolkien: His knowledge about the texts of his farther would have become greater with longer studying time. Therefore B) does have much more weight for me than A). Specially since Christopher Tolkien addresses one of the features taken up into Sil77 from ‘text X’ specifically (b1)). And as seen in c3) the even later C) does neither backup nor criticize his treatment in A) nor his statement in B).
That’s why for me B) rules, which means the outlaws are the way to transport the full treasure of Nargothrond to Menegroth.
As for the Nauglamír made for Felagund, that would be an option, but an unnecessary complication of the story, since as said above all the treasure is brought to Menegroth.

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Old 11-24-2018, 03:36 AM   #65
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Findegil, Thank you for your detailed analysis of the matter. My lack of time and not having access to my original books prevents me from analyzing it correctly, although I could never expose it in the same way that you did.
But in the end, in summary, is what I think.
The only thing that bothers me is, as I said, the mention of CT in BT of the Sil77 decision. Obviously I would have liked that CT had remade the Silmarillion in the same way that we did but unfortunately it was not like that. I do not know if his heirs will ever do it (or even be done, waiting for the appropriate time for publication), (I am completely sure that our work never went unnoticed by the Tolkien Estate and CT).
Anyway, I agree with our common decision.
Now, considering your last sentence, the only thing we could do is decide if the Nauglamír was done or not for Felagund.
Now I'm not, as I said, (nor was I, nor will I be in the future unfortunately, because I also have a problem in the eyes that is going over and I do not know how I will finish in the next few years), in conditions to analyze it by my same.

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