The Judgement on Smeagol

[Nar]

So, Smeagol's lost himself in Gollum, taken Frodo's finger and the Ring, and toppled into the Cracks of Doom, finishing himself with his Precious. Now comes the meeting of Smeagol, or what is left of him after Stinker's had his way, and Eru. I imagine Smeagol / Gollum, coming as close as spirit can to eyes tightly shut, cowering on paradisal meadows and shrieking something like: 'Don't cast us into the nassty flames preciousss, we, I, Smeagol will be very good, yesss! Bring the angelses nice fissh!' I wonder if Eru'd be able to bring Smeagol around at the last second? I'd try if I was Eru. What do you think? What do you think Smeagol / Gollum would say at that moment? What's your best speech for the prosecution or defense?

[ July 05, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Imperica]

Who's to say that Men (or Hobbits) meet Eru for judgement after their deaths to begin with?

[Elrian]

If Smeagol's spirit left ME, he wouldn't have met Eru, he'd have gone to the Houses of the Dead in Mandos.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

If Smeagol's spirit left ME, he wouldn't have met Eru, he'd have gone to the Houses of the Dead in Mandos.

Actually... no, he wouldn't. The Halls of Mandos are for elves, not hobbits. Smeagol's fate is that of men, and that fate is uncertain.

Even if men do go to Eru when they die, Eru wouldn't have to "try" to bring Smeagol around, he would just do it. He's god, he can do whatever he wants.

[burrahobbit]

Actually... no, he wouldn't.

Actually... yes, he would. Men (even Smeagol) go to Mandos when they die, and thence beyond.

[Nar]

Yes, beyond, and Smeagol's fate is unknown to us, like any other mortal. Unless his fea managed to linger by the Cracks of Doom lamenting his precious-- I'm not sure if that option's available to mortals. However, I already know what he'd say if he stayed: an endless litany of 'Precious, O my precious,' similar to Maglor's cries as he wandered along the beach. If Smeagol did go on, then as far as I know, there are only two possible entities to meet beyond the circles of Arda: Eru or Morgoth. Morgoth I understand is indisposed to meet visitors, which leaves Eru. It's my definite impression that Eru has something more to do with the gift to mortalkind beyond just decreeing that they go. What would Eru say if they met? Something similar to what was said to Melkor, or something different? What would Smeagol say if he was talking? Would he think of the yellow face by the river or the white face in the night sky? Would he remember Frodo?

[burrahobbit]

I'm not sure if that option's available to mortals.

It is, and he might have. I was thinking about that.

[NazgulNumber10]

snif snif....leave smeagol alone...wawawawa...

[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: NazgulNumber10 ]

[Wormtongue]

Isn't Smeagol a halfling off-shoot? Why would he be judged by the Gods of Men?

[burrahobbit]

Hobbit = man.

Getting back on topic. I don't think that Eru judges souls. From what I've read (which is less than many) it seems that if a soul is good it does what it is supposed to do (goes to Mandos and thence beyond), but if it is tainted it decides (if that is the word) to not go to Mandos. Once free from his body he may have been free from the grip of the ring, not to mention that there was no more ring to hold him.

[Nar]

As to Eru and judgement, I don't know. There's certainly no hell mentioned, to which I say, Yay! I never liked the idea of hell. Unless you count the outer darkness, but I think & hope that's just Morgoth out there. So, haunting favorite spots in Middle Earth serves as the closest thing, and it's a sad result of an individual's state of mind rather than imposed. Good.

I thought of judgement because here is a badly damaged Smeagol-spirit, finally meeting his creator. Smeagol is probably free of the lure of the ring because it's gone but likely mad as a hatter from its destruction while they were in full communion.

This reminds me of Beregond appearing before the King Elessar to receive judgement on his actions, only I'm much less certain it'll all end with a smile. And I expect Eru to ask self, 'What would Gandalf do?' --just kidding. I don't think Manwe or Sam would be up to this situation, but I think Eru, Gandalf or Frodo would handle what's left of Smeagol the same way, try to put him back together. Perhaps Eru would say, (deep voice) 'Smeagol, I AM your grandmother! If you only knew the power of the light side ... '

[Child of the 7th Age]

But can we assume because the Ring was destroyed, Smeagol would be free of it? I have the clear impression there were times Frodo desired it. Tolkien himself states this in his Letters. I don't think we can assume, then, that Gollum/Smeagol would be totally free of this influence.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[burrahobbit]

Quite right. The only difference is that Gollum is dead. Does something like that bother you when you are dead? I can't say.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Men go to Mandos when they die.

I'm not quite familiar with this fact that men go to Mandos and then beyond. Could you please tell me where this is stated?

[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: Orofacion of the Vanyar ]

[Elrian]

For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Luthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set outnever to return. "of Luthien and Beren" Silmarillian

[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Nar]

You're right, Sharon and Burrahobbit, Smeagol would no more be able to forget the ring than Frodo was ... unless he was able to move on to a place of more complete healing as Frodo did.

I would make a distinction between the lure of the ring, and longing for the ring. By the lure of the ring I meant the active psychic assault that almost zombified Frodo during the last leg of the journey-- I think the Ring needed to exist to do that. The longing for the Ring would be an aftereffect in the sufferer's mind, a psychic wound or void caused by the Ring's influence, temptations, whisperings of despair. The longing for the Ring would survive the ring's destruction in both Frodo and Smeagol.

Take for example Sam's vision of heroic gardening, that's an active lure by the ring, put into Sam's mind to tempt him. Any nostalgia Sam might feel later for the garden of his dreams would be an aftereffect, longing. (I doubt he did, because he was barely touched.)

In Frodo's and Smeagol's case, they would miss the psychic presence of the living ring-- Smeagol even more than Frodo; the Ring was his only companion for most of his life. Frodo would know he should fight to suppress that longing. Smeagol would not fight it-- there's no sign he resisted unless you count the line in the Hobbit about the ring 'galling' him until he put it away-- perhaps some hobbit instinct of soul-preservation was at work.

So if Smeagol would not fight that longing, and I agree he would not, why wouldn't he just linger as a shade on Mt. Doom, weeping 'My Precious, O my Precious' forever? He might, but I hate the idea. For one thing, I so love the way he talks. Think of the scene in Ithilien,

'... fried fish and chips, served by S. Gamgee. You couldn't say no to that.'
'Yes, yes we could. Spoiling nice fish, scorching it. Give me fish now and keep nassty chips!'

--How can you not wish for some entity to help Smeagol? He has the sense to love Frodo, which is more than one can say for most of the Shire's hobbits. (Of course, none of them strangled their best friends, so they have less to prove.) I'm perfectly happy to consign Saruman to shade-dom forever, he was wise, he had every advantage in Arda, and he succumbed all by himself without being ambushed by an artifact of ultimate evil. Smeagol's fea, however, I hate to see lost.

No, I don't think the Smeagol-fea would leave the place he lost the Ring of his own conscious accord, but as he's just died, the gift to mortals must somehow come into play. When the Fea is freed, how does it know what to do, where to go? Is there some sort of summons, or is some memory of where to go unlocked?

Smeagol would have to choose between the longing and the gift of Illuvatar/Eru to mortals, but at least the active influence of the Ring would be gone. He'd suffer under the longing but not that active lure. I think he'd have a chance. I think he'd go. I think he'd find himself by the riverbank. I think he'd meet his Grandmother there.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Thank you Elrain. So men depart from the Hither Shorse of the Halls, correct? I had always assumed once death had occured, the souls of men immediately go to... wherever they go to. I hadn't thought about them kinda of stopping off in the halls.

[littlemanpoet]

Wow! The lighthearted tone this had in AYWSF is totally absent! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [LMP puts on his seriousness cap and steps up to the podium - <ahem>]

Thinking out loud here: Although not part of the Legendarium per se, "Leaf By Niggle" is, perhaps, helpful in understanding Tolkien's approach to the afterlife. Everything in the mythos proper carries with it a sense that death does not bring an end, a completion - in Xian protestant terms 'a final rest'. Rather, there is time of waiting in the Halls of Mandos for ALL sentient creatures (I think) - aka elves, dwarves, humans, hobbits - and from there the fates vary. Getting back to Leaf By Niggle, Niggle wound up in purgatory after leading a somewhat wasted life. Gollum's life was to a large degree wasted also, though it could be said that through the odd twists of fate or providence, the fact that he was instrumental in the destruction of the Ring could conceivably be grounds for saying that he had a HIGH PURPOSE; and that, perhaps, through the twisting and turning, circuitous paths where creaturely free will and Eru's sovereign will meet, Gollum saved himself/was saved from utter doom.

woops I almost slipped in philosophical and theological stuff that would just open a can of worms I'd just as soon see left in the Trilogy and Bible thread. Anyways..... so maybe Gollum just has a long, long, realllly long purgatorial stay, the repetitive obedience over years and years producing verrrrry slowly in him the change of mind and heart seen in Niggle. Just a thought...

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Nar]

Well, I was hoping for a few lighthearted Smeagolian spoofs tricked out with extra 'Essseses', but the mention of Eru seems to be inhibiting everyone. So, Littlemanpoet, your idea on the fate of Smeagol cheers me up. Do you see Smeagol digging in the sun? Painting boards all one boring color? Perhaps in his particular case, catching fish for others even at the risk that someone like Sam might choos to *shudder* scorch them up with some nassty chips? I think Smeagol could handle lying in the dark, resting completely, but I doubt that would do him much good.

The only complication is, Leaf by Niggle is set (more or less) in this world: it has bicycles, and no visible hobbits (unless Niggle's one, he could be, it's not mentioned.)

Perhaps, though, the Halls of Mandos would serve a similar preparatory role. Mandos tries to think up a useful task Smeagol can handle. 'Very thoughtful of you to offer, young Fea-of-Smeagol, but no, you may not go steal eggs from Lady of the Valar Yavanna's garden. Even if you found a way to move them as a Fea, I don't believe I wish to try sucking raw eggs. Certainly not, a Lord of the Valar is afraid of nothing! We DO NOT raid eggs here in Valinor!'

[littlemanpoet]

'We doesssn't know where we issss, my preciousss, no we doesssn't.'

'Smeagol!' rings a voice of Doom. Smeagolfea clasps his hairless feaskull under both fleshy hands, peering around in terror.

'Yesss, Massster, nice Massster?'

'Look up. No, higher.'

'Aaaaaaiiiii! Nice Massster, we hasssn't done nothing wrong, no we hasssn't, no matter what that nasssty hobbit with the potsess and pansess told you, Massster...'

'I know what you did, Smeagol. You are in my Halls, for you have died. You died possesssing the Ring of the Enemy of the Free Peoples of the Outer Lands.'

Smeagolfea squirms under the light of truth and flattens himself on the floor, trying to seep down into cracks in the floor, but there are none.

'Stand before me, Smeagol.'

Smeagolfea does not stand, but squirms and squirms.

Mandos Master of Doom waits thirty-six years for Smeagolfea to realize that he cannot hide from Mandos. He stands.

and so on......

[Nar]

... At which point a newly arrived Fea strolls into the halls, ancient but upright, shinier than a polished kettle on the hob. This Fea and Mandos exchange courtesies.
'Kind of you to look after young Smeagolfea. I'll sort him out now. Hobbits must look after hobbits.'
With vast relief, Mandos nods solemnly. Smeagolfea turns, stares, then leaps back in disgust.
'Baggins! Thief! Baggins!' He hisses.
'Now, now,' says Bilbofea, 'Bygones must be bygones. Come, we're expected. We mustn't be late.'
'Smeagol will go with the other, the nice Baggins.' Smeagolfea mutters, although already he feels the pull to go on.
'The nice Baggins will be along later. He's waiting for his friend, you remember.'
'The other one, the nassty hobbit!'
'That's the one. They'll have a good visit, and then when they're ready, they'll follow along together. We're ready now. Come, I've thought of another riddle. You'll never guess this one!'
'Is it fisshes, my precious?'
'Well... perhaps, among other things. I'll tell you as we go.'

[Child of the 7th Age]

Nar and Littlemanpoet-- This is wonderful. You almost have me weeping for Gollum.

What is it in Gollum that grabs on to us in a way that none of the other "baddies" do. He did murder a friend, and, as far as I know, he is the only hobbit to commit murder. Are we being taken in by an exterior that is somewhat, slimily cuddly??

Murderers are not nice, but I do feel for Gollum. I can't help saying a hundred times, why did Sam have to come back at that instant and spoil any possibility of repentence? I honestly think if you put Gollum in purgatory, he might be there till the end of time.

So very sad! And Gollum would be just one of many tragic characters. What about all the Easterlings we don't know of, but who fought in the war on the side of evil, worshipping Sauron. Yet they were fathers and brothers and husbands, too. Eru sure has some tough decisions to make!

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[doug*platypus]

If the truth of Middle-Earth afterlife for mortals was anything like the Viking or Rohirric world view, I like to think that Sméagol takes his rightful place as an important part of the destruction of Sauron. Much like the final scene of Return of the Jedi, where even the fallen Anakin is redeemed at the end and takes his place among the great Jedi Obi-Wan and Yoda. Hmm... Sméagol's case is a little different - can you be accidentally redeemed?

[Kin-strife]

I feel a cold hand on my heart at the thought, mentioned somewhere above, of Smèagol denying the call to the halls of Mandos and tarrying beside the molten grave of his precious. Where, perhaps, to this day locals still tell tales of a voice often heard on the wind, with a sound of hopeless despair, crying for its precious. Perhaps over hundreds of years a mythical tale of the lost love of a prince developed from the phenomenon. Who could ever suspect the real story, that long, long ago, beyond even the memories of the oldest of the trees, a Hobbit lost a ring?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

If Smeagol went to Eru's halls after his death then he might have repented and been forgiven.

Remeber Eru's words to men when they first turned to Melkor worship.He says that their lifespans will be cut significantly short so that they can go and see Eru and testify who the REAL god is. So I can see Eru hitting Gollum with a stick making him say

" Eru is the best and Smeagol smells." Or something. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ January 19, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[ January 19, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[The Saucepan Man]

Since the wrongs that he committed were the result of his corruption by the Ring, rather than any innate evil, I see no reason why Smeagol should not be redeemed. Should Boromir, for example, not be entitled to redemption simply because because the Ring played upon his desire to defend his people and caused him to attack Frodo?

[Nar]

Hey! Someone revived my question! Thank you very much!

Child that was lovely, forgive my belated thanks. The fact that there isn't a Hell mentioned in Tolkien's cosmos, the fact that all the characters who seem closest to Tolkien: Gandalf, Frodo, particularly by the end, have a seemingly limitless capactity for giving bad old wizard-tyrants, dessicated, murdering fish thieves and slimy traitors a second chance suggest to me that all those characters who seem lost forever have quite a bit tossed at them or to them (like a line, or a lure, or a call, or a 'gift of man') to bring them sometplace both good and proper. The entire sub-creation seems to me imbued with kindness, which I attribute to the nature of the author.

doug*platypus: I like this:

Sméagol's case is a little different - can you be accidentally redeemed?

Um, no, nope. 'He slipped, tripped, and saved the world -- oh, ok. You're good on a technicality.' Poor guy's in trouble. Smeagol, unlike Boromir, did not get it right at the last second. I don't imagine the ultimate fate of most of the fear to be like Ragnarok, I imagine it as something like the end of Frodo's last journey to the West, but on a larger scale, with the grey rain curtain rolling back, but without the bother of a ship, an ocean, a breathing body, all those details.

-- It seems from HoME (I think vol. 4) that JRRT thought about a similar ending for Turin, a place in a final battle against Morgoth -- for no one else, not your average fea, just the much abused (albeit pigheaded) Turin, but then discarded it. I'm still waiting for the later volumes to find out what his last ideas were. I'd like to think that all those fear that experienced the gift of man had something better to do than wait around for yet another battle, or sleep, or float; but what that would be, I don't know exactly. I just persistently see them all on the grass by a river, stealing eggses, but in a good way. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Wow, Kin-strife, you think the mists of history might have promoted Smeagol to a prince! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I think somehow Smeagol would appreciate princedom no more than he appreciated chips. I do hope Smeagol's fea managed to get away from the cracks of doom. No one who appreciated Frodo, however imperfectly, deserves that.

Inderjit-Sangherja Eeek! Eru sounds mean. Or -- wait -- isn't there a Russian spa treatment that involves jumping out of hot springs, rolling in the snow, hitting eachother with switches? Maybe THAT's Eru's gift to man, a week of tough Slavic spa treatments to get those Fear into condition!

Ah, Saucepan Man, you make a good point, but remember, Smeagol strangled his friend at the sight of the gold before he actually touched it. The ring may have been exerting an influence at that point -- from the way Smeagol's reasons for murder are described 'because the gold looked so bright...' (something like that) I think the ring was affecting him. Still, this is a comment on Smeagol's morality-- it took much, much longer for Boromir to begin planning his ring-raid, and Bilbo, Frodo and Sam held to their essetial natures in almost all circumstances. I'm afraid Smeagol was going bad before the ring; you can't blame the ring for all of his degradation.