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Old 08-05-2000, 07:04 PM   #1
Gandalf12
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If any of you Tolkien fans have read &quot;Unfinished Tales&quot; in the first chapter, &quot;Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin&quot;, it says a little about the Dark Elves. Were these A.Evil-type elves B. Elves who liked the dark or C. Elves under whoever was the evil ruler (Morgoth I think) I need to know this... it's driving me crazy!

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Old 08-05-2000, 07:19 PM   #2
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Dark Elves

The Moriquendi, the Dark Elves, were not evil at all. If you've heard of the Light Elves, who accepted the summons of the Valar and marched West to Valinor, the Dark Elves are simply the elves that either refused the march or left it halfway through. They didn't behold the Light of the Two Trees.

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Old 08-05-2000, 07:22 PM   #3
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Elvish question!

I'm not sure exactly how the term was used in that chapter of UT, but the Dark Elves, The Moriquendi, were the Elves that never sa the light of the Two Trees of Valinor. Tehy consisted of the Avari who refused the summons of the Valar and the Umanyar who accepted the summons but for one reason or another did not complete the journey. The Umanyar included the Nandor, Laiquendi (Green-Elves), and the Sindar.

They were not evil. They were called 'dark' because they hadn't seen the Light (of the Trees) and remained in Middle-Earth, living in the darkness before (and after) the Sun and Moon.

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Old 08-05-2000, 10:05 PM   #4
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Moriquendi

Yes, they were sometimes wilder and less wise than the Light Elves; but they were Elves. If I remember sorrectly, no Elf was ever an ally of Morgoth except for Maeglin. Though If anyone knows of another Black Elf, I'd be interested.

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Old 08-06-2000, 09:53 AM   #5
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Moriquendi

Didn't Morgoth twist and corrupt some of the Moriquendi and create orcs of them?
Creatures that were as horrible and disgusting as Elves were beautiful and fair?

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Old 08-06-2000, 10:04 AM   #6
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Evil elves...

Well, thanx for solving that for me. I thought they were like evil or lived in the Mines of Moria or something<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> But I cannot believe that an Elf would be dumb and stupid enough to actually be in an alliance with Morgoth or Sauron or fall so low to be made into an Orc. But I suppose he had his own reasons...

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Old 08-06-2000, 01:08 PM   #7
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Evil elves...

From 'Quendi and Eldar': &quot;No Elf of any kind [ie Dark or Light] ever sided with Morgoth of free will, though under torture or the stress of great fear or deluded by lies, they might obey his commands: but this also applied to Celbin [Light Elves]. The 'Dark-elves', however, often were hostile and even treacherous, in their dealings with the Sindar and Noldor...&quot;.

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Old 08-06-2000, 09:33 PM   #8
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Morgoth

Yes, precisely my point. I never said that Maeglin was the only evil Elf, just that he was the only Elf to side with Melkor. <img src=devil.gif ALT=":evil">

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Old 08-06-2000, 11:19 PM   #9
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Morgoth

Even Orcs didn't willingly side with Morgoth.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery.<hr></blockquote>

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Old 08-07-2000, 12:22 AM   #10
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Morgoth

Did Sauron willingly serve Morgoth? Or was he driven mad with jealosy of the Dark Lord, and only served him in the hope that one day he could break away. Or maybe because of the power that Morgoth gave him.

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Old 08-07-2000, 01:38 AM   #11
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Morgoth

I'd say jealousy.

And maybe Sauron could even sense Morgoth's final destiny and him ending up to be the next Dark Lord.

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Old 08-07-2000, 03:27 AM   #12
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Morgoth

I don't think so. If Sauron could foresee Morgoth's downfall, surely he could percieve his own. I think rather he was biding his time, guessing that the power of the Valarvwould eventually overcome Melkor. Then he could operate freely.

Jealosy, of course.

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Old 08-07-2000, 05:18 AM   #13
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Yeah...

Gwaihir's right. IF Sauron could predict and forsee Morgoth's downfall he'd probally say &quot;Forget this. My master's gonna go down and I ain't goin with him.&quot; Jelousy's right...

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Old 08-07-2000, 05:54 AM   #14
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Yeah...

Sauron followed Morgoth out of adoration. Even after M. was tossed into the Void Sauron spent most of his time converting people to the worship of his ancient master.

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Old 08-07-2000, 07:39 AM   #15
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Yeah...

Yes, after Morgoth had totally poisoned his mind.

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Old 08-07-2000, 07:53 AM   #16
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Yeah...

I don't think that because Melkor was the original evil that he was the only evil. Just because other spirits aligned themselves to Melkor doesn't mean that they would not have been evil without his influence.

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Old 08-08-2000, 04:58 AM   #17
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Yeah...

Good point, R. Ungoliant, for example, was wholly evil, yet could only be considered a (temporary) ally of Melkor, not a follower.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>
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Old 08-08-2000, 12:31 PM   #18
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Malicia!

The lesser evil beings and people would certainly have been evil even without Melkor, I daresay. It was probably only just (and I think the books encourage this opinion) that they followed Melkor out of their free will, because he assuredly was the mightiest of them. To have a chance against the outnumbering Valar, they had to join their efforts under the leadership of the greatest. Those who, such as Ungolianth, could easily hide from the Valar in a distant place guarded by a shadow-web, and who did share Melkor“s megalomaniac vision of ruling the universe, stayed away from the events.
I also believe that even if any of Melkor“s followers, including Sauron, could have foreseen their fate, they would still have made the same decision to support and follow Melkor. What other choice would the have had? Sauron could have stayed among the Valar, his mind, incited with Melkor“s genius of evil, more and more turning to hatred of those he lived among. The evil Maiar could not have avoided a confrontation with the Valar (I am loath to use the term &quot;good&quot; ,even as an opoosite to evil, because being egocentric is not always good only because good deeds may be the side-effect...). And in this confrontation they would not have had a bigger chance than they would have had had they followed Him Who Arises In Might; no doubt they were well aware of this circumstance.
Better to seek out what one can do with his whole effort joint into a group of like-minded than to yield and refute from the beginning, right?
Maybe this assigns a honourable attitude to the evil side which it never had, but even if it did not, most of the malicious beings would have followed Melkor in belief of his claim to be the King of the World and the Master of the fates of Arda.

Well, doesn“t this sound somewhat confused. Anyhow.
<img src=devil.gif ALT=":evil">

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Old 07-16-2003, 10:11 PM   #19
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Even after M. was tossed into the Void Sauron spent most of his time converting people to the worship of his ancient master.
Yes, but he also got a lot of power from convincing people to do that. He was the priest of Melkor/Morgoth wasn't he?
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Old 07-17-2003, 06:26 AM   #20
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True...and it's also true that Morgoth had poisoned his mind, because didn't Tolkien say that nothing was evil in the beginning, that they were corrupted?
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