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Old 08-06-2000, 11:14 AM   #1
The Westward Road
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Ring Doomed from the begining...

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I am reading Lost Tales part one and the early detailed description of the Music of Ainur reminded me of the
of the Silms references to the three times Melkor tries to take over and fight Eru's theme. During each of these attempts the Ainur around him often were lead astray and came into harmony with Melkor's theme. Since the Music basically governs the fate of the World and none can escape that fate except men did the Ainur who joined Melkor in the discourse of the music doom themselves from the begining. Did Sauron and all the spirits who later became the Balrogs make up this group that joined Melkor. Is it possible Sauraman even joined Melkor in his third attempt to disrupt the theme.
Also could the Maiar and Valar who later thwart the attempts of Melkor and Sauron have been used by Eru to make the new themes that arose despite Melkors themes.

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Old 08-07-2000, 12:27 AM   #2
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Doomed from the begining...

I myself don't think that what you're getting at is true. When the Ainur sang in the great Music, they did not seal their own fates but simply created Ea. But we really don't know for sure, as Tolkien never said anything about the matter.

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Old 08-07-2000, 08:24 AM   #3
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Doomed from the begining...

I always thought that the music foretold and defined alot of what would happen in the ages to come. Thats why some of the Valar who listened more than they sang in the music had great foresight (especially Mandos). The Music did not just put the world into being but it also affected the fate of the World until the domination of men began. An example of this is Melkor challenges the theme 3 times and is defeated after periods of time. Then he becomes the tyrant who the valar remove before the coming of Elves and he is chained bringing and end to his first uprising like his first theme was stopped by Eru. Then he stole the Simirals and took up his second reign as a the tyrant at Angband before he was stopped and removed from the world till the end in the War of Wrath, (representing his second defeat) and third Sauron's reign (Saurons reign counts because all of the major evils are seeds of Morgoths especially Saurons due to his long service to Morgoth as his Lieuteniant(sp)) which was defeated in the War of the Ring. The Ainur see the vision of the world unfolding up to the point where men dominate. I believe this is due to the fact that men's fate is not tied down to earth of the Music. That is the gift they have the ability to create there own destiny whether it be for good of ill. This is how I interpret the text however and that is alway open to error. That is the fun of Tolkien though everyone gets to see it there own way.

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Old 08-08-2000, 12:22 AM   #4
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Doomed from the begining...

Well, that's what I meant, created the World and the general flow of events in it. The Ainur who listened more than sang of course had greater foresight than the onees who didn't.
Though I still very much doubt that the Music affected their own moral. I am inclined to think that it was rather the lies and careful wording of Morgoth that turned so many against the Valar.
Mandos may even have listened more than he sang because he was dismayed by the Discord of Melkor, and stopped.

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Old 08-08-2000, 02:05 AM   #5
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Doomed from the begining...

westward road,you may well be on to something.
I have always seen the three themes as being somewhat a reflection or better yet a foreshadowing of what was to come. not set in stone perhaps but a rough outline.
It amazes me how little the Ainulindale changed over the years[in the writings] compared to evryother silmarillion tale.

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Old 08-10-2000, 07:59 PM   #6
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Doomed from the begining...

Nice post Westward Road! The idea that Melkor thrice attempted to dominate the Theme is related to Melkor twice and Sauron later attempting to seize control of middle earth is one I haven't heard before. But didn't Sauron try twice himself?

The theory about ainur who were swayed by Melkor's music being fated to follow him is interesting also. Maybe the right word isn't &quot;fated&quot; but rather dominated or corrupted. Remember that Osse was initially a supporter of Melkor but changed sides. Also, Tolkien in a number of letters emphasized his belief that no corruption is &quot;unredeemable&quot;.

The fate issue, and the qoute about only man having totally free will, is one I've debated on other boards. My personal view is that whatever was directly addressed in the Music is more strictly governed by fate. But the Music was broad-brush strokes, not a detailed history, giving all races room for some free will. Perhaps men are more free because the Music ended before they arose in the Third Theme. However, it appears that the more closely they deal with elves and the Valar, the more they get bound up in fated or dommed events. Others disagree and argue that there is no predetermination in Tolkien's works. I think this view ignores the obvious implications of the Sil.

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Old 08-11-2000, 12:33 AM   #7
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Doomed from the begining...

I, for one, agreee with you, Mithadan. Apart from the Music determining the fates of the Ainur.

Osse was actually initially a vassal of Ulmo. Melkor tried to corrupt him, but his spouse (I forget her name) restrained him and brought him back to alliegience with Ulmo.
The story of this Maia may be true with others. With this one, a Maia is honest, then corrupted by Melkor. Maybe Melkor seduced the Sauron and his other Maiar in the same way; except they didn't repent or have a faithful wife to keep them in check <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> .

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Old 08-11-2000, 08:12 AM   #8
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Doomed from the begining...

Westward Road, I think you are on to something with Melkor's three discords, but I think that you are wrong in couting Sauron's reign as Melkor's third rule. Don't forget that Melkor comes again at the end of time, which would be a fourth time if you count Sauron.

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Old 11-30-2002, 01:44 AM   #9
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I am bringing this to the top again, as there are somethings that I'd like to say, but I am about to fall asleep and I know that I'll not remember where this post is tomorrow.

Very valid points, each of you. What says the newer members, pray tell??
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