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Old 08-08-2000, 05:26 AM   #1
Taimar
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In some of his later writings JRR stressed the `stature` of Galadriel among the Eldar and how she was the equal of Feanor in her abilities, though different from him. It is interesting to me that he did not simultaneously alter to any great extent her role in the major events which occurred during three Ages of Middle-Earth.

In the First Age she probably was the least active (apart from Aredhel) of all Finwe`s grandchildren in the war against Morgoth. She took a reasonably active part in the struggle against Sauron in the Second Age, but was still less effective than Gil-galad and Elrond, not to mention the Numenoreans. Her part in the events of the Third Age is again fairly minor.

Accepting, as I think we must, JRR`s description of her talents as valid, why does Galadriel fail to live up to her potential and play such a passive part in the affairs of Middle-earth?

I also admit to disliking Galadriel, which is a minority view, judging from what I have seen on various sites and boards. Does anyone else share this opinion?

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000099>Taimar</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/black_ball.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 8/8/00 7:29:41 am
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Old 08-08-2000, 05:36 AM   #2
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Galadriel

I, too, have never fallen under the popular swoon brought on by the Lady of the Golden Wood. By the late Third Age, the rulers of Lothlorien were a couple of ethnocentric isolationists. Celeborn, though called the Wise, seldom 'said' anything wisely. And Galadriel reveled in the thought of what she might do as the next Dark Lord, practically bragging about it to Sam and Frodo. Both sat back in Lorien fixated on the past, only venturing out when their soverignty was directly threatened.

This is a rather harsh treatment for two of the greatest Elves to remain in M.E. in the Third Age, but they seriously weren't living up to their potential.

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Old 08-08-2000, 11:00 AM   #3
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Galadriel-must I fetch my axe?


I have to agree re: celeborn
I can't think of a wise word he uttered to the Company in Lothlorien [warning the party away from fangorn!]
but hey- everyone has bad days.

I would describe Galadriel's role as more subtle[but still powerful] than passive .
her strength is in Being more than doing.
And this literally infuses everyone and everything around her w/ light in
a similar but even more powerful and far - reaching way than Glorfindel does at the ford when he meets the 5 travelers.
Galadriel maintains the only place in ME about which is said 'upon this land lies no stain'. no mean feat in a fallen world.
She in many ways is a disciple I think of Melian the maia and follows her model closely.
Quite a few of her actions are extremely noteworthy and essentially unique
the fact that she can read Sauron's mind [ re: the elves ]doubtless was of no small value to the white council [even Saruman!]
I don't recall this ability attributed to Gandalf or Elrond -indeed to him the road South was under darkness.
Her sheilding of Eorl in his ride to save Gondor was crucial [unfinished tales]
Her giving of Lembas , the phial and the cloaks were indespensible to Frodo and sam[although some armor for Boromir would have been nice]
[these all proceeded in some way from her -even though Celeborn is given chiefgiftgiver honours.
She is a vision that Sam hearkens back to time and again in and to Mordor.ginig him hope and courage in a way no memory of Gandalf or Elrond does.
Her giving to Sam the mallorn seed and the soil of her garden is I think an extremely noble and non-ethnocentric act [as is her reception of gimli and granting of his wish - thus in effect healing a breach of Elves and Dwarves that had existed from the time the 2 races probably laid eyes on each other.
It was from the moment after her acceptance of Gimli that he pairs up w/ Legolas a comraderie that one can easily forsee extending to the newly founded Rohan and Gondorian Elf/ Dwarf communites of the 4 th age and undoubtedly had positive repercussions in Greenwood and the lonely Mountain all because she put the 3 age long feud aside and literally showed love to a dwarf.
She could merely have been polite and nice ,
but she clearly goes beyond this to a true opening of her heart to gimli.
Her earlier allowing of Aragorn into Lothlorien is also portrayed as a unique[ non-ethnocentric] event w/ a few parallels to Beren and Luthien although she willingly admits him and gives him the betrothal gift of the elessar[see customs of the eldar in Morgoth's ring]

She and glorfindel are the only Elven charecters[in lotr] to go beyond compassion to deep heartfelt love . The others all have a certain aloofness -even when there is kindness.

In short her effect upon middle-earth is similar to Fingolfin andLuthien of whom it is said that [at least 1 x each -they caused flowers to grow/spring to awaken where they had passed.
So I think in reality[if not title] Galadriel was the High -Queen of the oldest race of the Chidren of Iluvatar and had indeed learned all her lessons well-and planted or provided the seeds which would enrich the dominion of Men long after the elves themselves had faded or passed west.
can I put my axe away? <img src=smile.gif ALT="">



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Old 08-08-2000, 11:28 AM   #4
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Galadriel-must I fetch my axe?

I`m not convinced, Lindil. I did not say that Galadriel did nothing, or that she was not an influential figure in the history of Middle-earth. I stated the opinion that, for someone who was supposedly the most gifted (along with Feanor) of the Firstborn, she achieves remarkably little and does not deserve this accolade.

Shall I send for my sword? <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000099>Taimar</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/black_ball.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 8/8/00 1:32:13 pm
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Old 08-08-2000, 11:35 AM   #5
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Galadriel-must I fetch my axe?

That was absolutely great, lindil. Couldn't have said it better.

Galadriel kept up the more neutral and passive way of opposing Sauron and his minions. Her strength was more being than doing, just like Melian the maia, yes.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!<hr></blockquote>

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Old 08-08-2000, 03:05 PM   #6
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Galadriel-must I fetch my axe?

Lindil makes a very succinct and bright point when he distinguishes between being and doing. I believe that what frustrates the likes of Taimar, Kittle (and myself, to tell the truth), is that being seems an inadequate -- even an irresponsible -- stance in the face of active evil. Neville Chamberlain's motive at Munich, &quot;Peace in our time,&quot; was reasonably laudable in and of itself but it seems to me to have been somewhat impertinent granted the circumstances.
To have been the escapist artist Henri Matisse (&quot;I want to make art that is like an easy-chair&quot at the same historical moment appears to me to be morally obtuse if not not morally culpable.
Perhaps enrichment is something better practiced when the grossest kinds of injustice and cruelty are relatively quiescent? Perhaps evil is sometimes gross enough that wisdom is less relevant than principled action? Yes I realize that JRRT offers the cautionary counter-example of Boromir, but I must admit that I find his motives easier to swallow than Galadriel's.


</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000201>galpsi</A> at: 8/9/00 7:00:40 am
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Old 08-09-2000, 02:25 AM   #7
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> I“ll leave my scimitar in its scabbard anyway...

Galpsi, I“d even go as far as to say that Boromir“s motifs are all righteous, and most of them sound and reasonable. From the limited view of a mortal, that is of course.
Galadriel surpassed him by far in knowledge and perception of the ways of the world but is slow to commit the bold deed. It lies luckily not on me to judge for you all which one is the better choice.
As for the 1938 Munich agreement, I do not think that Sauron could ever possibly have been appeased by granting him, say, southern Mirkwood. In Germany at that time, there was still the goal to achieve the (of course far-fetched) goals peacefully; no unjust military action had been undertaken before 1938. You are probably well aware that your example is not perfect, nor is it a suitable comparison.
But this is another topic which does not have something to do with ME and hence need not be discussed here

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Old 08-09-2000, 04:26 AM   #8
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: I“ll leave my scimitar in its scabbard anyway...

What was so laudable about Melian`s (and by extension) Galadriel`s) role in the First Age? She kept Doriath safe from outside interference, but did little to aid the other Beleriandic realms against Morgoth. RKittle`s label `ethnocentric isolationists` could be equally applied to Melian and Thingol as well as Galadriel and Celeborn.

Trying to maintain an Elven haven whilst taking little or no interest in the travails of the outside world does not amount to taking a stance aginst evil.

(BTW, Sharku. Two little words you may wish to consider. Guernica, 1937.)

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>
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Old 08-09-2000, 04:54 AM   #9
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: I“ll leave my scimitar in its scabbard anyway...

Since you have declared the particular historical events off-limits, I'll not debate your &quot;no unjust military action&quot; up to the Autumn of 1938 statement. In any case, it would not undercut the aptitude of the analogy even if you were correct; even Lorien took up arms after the storm broke.
&quot;Perfection&quot; is a lot to ask for; I doubt that much in the way of casual posting is perfect. As to whether my example made a &quot;suitable comparison,&quot; I am not sure why the analogy is wholly inapt. Chamberlain wanted England to withdraw with the goal of preserving her peace; Churchill believed that evil had to be directly confronted with force. These are the kinds of choices I was discussing in the context of LotR.
As to the grant of southern Mirkwood, I suppose it would have been just about as successful as the Munich Agreement. But that was rather my point if you'll see it. Hitler didn't want only the Sudetenland; he'd already published his plan in 1925.

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Old 08-09-2000, 10:56 AM   #10
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: I“ll leave my scimitar in its scabbard anyway...

Luckily my knowledge of early WWII leaves me w/out comment on such matters -but in the matters of Galadriel I can add a few observations to my earlier post.

I think much of the isolationism attributed to Galadriel [and Celeborn] stems from the Silvan Elves themselves.I doubt very much that though G. and C. were the [lord and lady not king and queen] that they did not have to consider the wishes and ages old predilection of their people .
The silvan elves were always more reclusive and less trusworthy of outsiders than other races-with the sindar/nandor in a close second[witness thranduil in the hobbit]
This worldview was only reinforced I would guess by the 2 armies of wood elves terrible losses in the Last Alliance [which they by no means hid from].
.
So that by the end of the 3rd age lorien 's 2 closest neighbors[human w/ armies] would have been looked at w/ suspicion I think by the [grima deluded] Theoden and the anti-Arnorian/Gandalf/Elven Denethor.
I can not imagine that such alliances were not discussed in both the white council and in private amongst the Gandalf and Lorien but that the degeneration of the culture of Men was to great to allow such a direct contact -till after the installing of Queen Arwen.
Now that it is a matter of sadness that the kingdoms of men[dale being the only exception I know of by the end of the 3rd age] had grown estranged from Elven companionship and culture this had always been weak in Gondor compared to Arnor .
As to Lothlorien [and it's rulers] not being involved in a large enough scale -I offer this.
There army was probably modest [prob. as a rough guess no larger than Rohan-more likely smaller and suited to woodland warfare] and their attack { am presuming they were involved in both } on DolGuldor was probably as big a job asthey could handle and If Gandalf {and presumably Galadriel} had had their way they would have attacked sooner -but for Saruman.
So I am not exactly sure what pepole expect from a small/middle sized community of Elves .
Another factor is that Galadriel seemed to Co-rule w/ Celeborn so if his policies were more isolationist [I would not be suprised -but I know of no direct evidence,other than his anti-dwarf sentiment]
Galadriel would not have had a free hand in this either.
I also would not underestimate the elves sense of patience {and well they could be} and there being willing to wait till the time was ripe to act.
I think the fact that they maintained there realm long enough to succor The fellowship and properly equip frodo and Sam was the most important role they played in the war. As elrond says 'even if [they] I had a host of Elves clad in armor of the Eldar days-it would avail little save to rouse the might of Sauron.[something like that at least]

She is recorded in one tradition of defending the teleri at the havens of Alqualonde-the only time she is mentioned w/ a sword - indeed the only time I can think of any Elf-Woman fighting.Male Armies and warriors were as much the norm for Elves as Western European/Americans.

I think she held aloof in the first age because she saw that w/out the aid of the valar it was hopeless- and she was right.
I also see in such records as we posses Galadriel having more contact w/ the various realms than anyoneelse, astaggering amount actually probably equalled only by Gandalf and Aragorn.Mentioned are: Harlindon, the Grey Havens,Eregion,Moria,
Gondor,Lothlorien, Doriath,Rhovanion and Thranduil's realm,Nargothrond,Lake Nenuial and Imladris and even Belfalas[the more obscure sojourns are mentioned in U.T.].
I just found an interesting passage {U.T. p235} where it states '...she perceived that there was an evil controlling purpose abroad in the world, and that it seemed to proceed from a source further East,beyond Eriador{she and C. were dwelling at or near that which would becomeAnnuminas} and the misty mountains. Celeborn and Galadriel THERFORE[emphasis mine] went eastwards and established Eregion.
...It may be that Galadriel
chose it because she knew of the Dwarves of Khazad -Dum..she perceived from the begining that Middle-Earth could not be saved from 'the residue of evil' that Morgoth had left behind him save by a
union of all people opposed to him.
this tale concludes w/ Galdriel saying 'she deemed it her duty to remain in Middle-Earth till Sauron was defeated.'

We also read 'Therefore after long journeys of enquiry[...being especially concerned to
learn all the news and rumours of the growing shadow in Mirkwood and the darkstronghold of Dol Guldor] in Rhovanion , from Gondor and the Borders of Mordor{was the mega-store established even then?} to Thranduil in the norththey then passed over the mountains to Imladris.
and furtherfrom U.T. [p.245]
'In her wisdom Galadriel saw that Lorien would be a stronghold and point of power to prevent the Shadow from crossing the Anduin in the war that must inevitably come...'

So Galadriel's greatness
{ App. B RotK- 'The greatest of Elven Women'}
was a attributed to her 'Being' and inherent power much of which was a genetic inheritance from Finwe,Indis, Finarfin and Earwen of the teleri but also her extensive 'shuttle diplomacy' in the 2nd andearly third age[She was the in this sense doing Gandalf's job before or during the early years of his arrival.] Her empathy w/ dwarves [also mentioned in her settling Eregion next to khazad -dum] and Men{Aragorn to whom she would lose her granddaughter}

I, humbly concur with JRRT and see her as the most important child of Iluvatar in the 3rd age and though she seemed to leave the fighting to the Male Elves -she was more involved involved in the resistance to Sauron than anyone w/ the exception of Gandalf .
So to anyone doubting Galadriel's stature
I suggest reading Unfinished Tales' 'History of Galadriel and Celeborn'
for the bigger picture .
lindil

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 8/9/00 3:38:36 pm
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Old 08-09-2000, 11:17 AM   #11
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: I“ll leave my scimitar in its scabbard anyway...

Now you've gone and done it, lindil. I'll have to drag out the books (UT included) and, from all that's you've shown me, probably prove myself wrong (and Galadriel wronged).

But at the moment, pre-research, I might say that I mispoke when I said Galadriel did not live up to her potential. Perhaps I should have said that in my mind she did not live up to the hype (kinda like Star Wars Ep.I).

We'll see...now where did I put that UT?


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Old 08-09-2000, 02:23 PM   #12
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: I“ll leave my scimitar in its scabbard anyway...

Galpsi, I did not want to say your example was bad, it is just that I think Neville Chamberlain did nothing wrong from his point of view, whereas Galadriel would have done much more evil had she acted his way; trying to appease Sauron would undoubtedly have failed, trying to appease Hitler was a possibility - mind the offer the English embassador in Berlin received on Aug. 25th 1939:
&quot;Germany obliges itself to defend the British Empire with its Wehrmacht whereever it may be threatened.&quot; Demands were that England would help G. to retrieve Danzig and the corridor, possible colonies, and assure fair treatment of the German minorities in Poland.
I do not think Sauron would have made such an official offer.
And Guernica was not a war-crime but a horrible accident.
Anyway, I find these historical topics far to delicate to treat them more thoroughful here.

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Old 08-09-2000, 05:34 PM   #13
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: no weapons at all, please

Sharku:
Your renderings of mid-twentieth century history strike me as polemical and misrepresentative. But as you keep insisting that you aren't going to &quot;treat&quot; history (each time right after a particularly provocative historical assertion), I'm willing to drop it.

Lindil:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> So to anyone doubting Galadriel's stature I suggest reading Unfinished Tales' 'History of Galadriel and Celeborn' for the bigger picture.<hr></blockquote>
I don't think that one can legitimately demand that either the Galadriel of LotR or the Galadriel of the entire posthumously published mass of notes be understood as the Galadriel.
JRRT was an author and he can be held to account for publishing a book that was already distended to the absurd length of thirteen-hundred and some-odd pages without appendices. Once published, it should be able to stand on its own as a work of art; its various characters should be adequately realized.
It is all well and good that the Professor obsessively constructed the back-story; I think that is why the book resonates as effectively as it does. But ME didn't, in fact, exist except in the imagination(s) of the author and his readers. So I am not sure why anyone needs to be saddled with missing the &quot;bigger picture.&quot; One might as easily argue that those who resort to the author's private ruminations to defend the creative short-comings of this (terribly successful) novel are also, in some sense, failing to apprehend the &quot;bigger picture.&quot;
Please, I hope that this doesn't sound like an attack; I warmly appreciate your comprehensive view of the work, but I am principally interested in JRRT's finished, published work and believe that it can (and should) stand on its own merits. And I believe that the Professor failed somewhat in expressing the deep superiority of the elves in which he seems so fervently to have believed. It has always been, for me, one of the nagging disappointments of a book which I have loved for twenty-five years.


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Old 08-09-2000, 06:04 PM   #14
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: no weapons at all, please

Galpsi,

I too have always held the finished product as the story and all post-LotR/Sil works to be just nice additions to read but not taken seriously - I still see things this way. But I must admit that as more and more people discuss the different possibilities, I have started to enjoy the late-edition volumes more and more and to find the discussion of the possibilities quite enjoyable.

Of course, I'll never see the new materials as an opportunity to question the story. I only see them as another reason to discuss Tolkien 24 hours a day for a year <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
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Old 08-09-2000, 09:13 PM   #15
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: no weapons at all, please

I can understand that someone would want to draw a line in the sand around something like the LotR.and say 'this is a whole'. I happen to favor -and take great delight in seeing what else JRRT had to say about the same subjects and inparticular I love the obscure corners of the doings of the Eldar in the 2nd and early third age .So to me to talk about Galadriel and ignore writings by JRRT specificaly about her[one of which was probably the final thingJRRT wrote re: M.E. is simply not what I would do.
maybe calling it 'the bigger picture ' is a bit much as would be 'the full[er] story' in my mind -that is what it is.
So I could try and nuance my future posts w/
Warning: contains idea's drawn from posthumous
publications .
but maybe that would be a fun thread of it's own-
'do Unfinished /History provide an extra or more fragments of an incomplete whole?
It just occured to me that JRRT wanted rather desperately, to have the Silm/ LotR published as 1 work because he saw them as one.



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Old 08-09-2000, 09:40 PM   #16
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: no weapons at all, please

While biographers assure us that JRRT had tried to shop the Silma. around during the early stages of its composition, they also point out that once LotR was a valuable commercial success (by the mid- to late-sixties, if I recall), the publishers were eager to publish any more ME stuff Tolkien would give them. Despite his &quot;rather desperate&quot; desire to get Silma. out and to &quot;complete&quot; his tale, the biographical consensus is that JRRT did not in fact undertake the serious work of putting it all together. This is why Silma. took so long to emerge and why CRT's hand is so readily evident therein.
Btw, if you were prepared to acknowledge that
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> maybe calling it 'the bigger picture ' is a bit much,<hr></blockquote>
don't you think that your phrase,
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> draw a line in the sand around something,<hr></blockquote>
might also sound like disparaging rhetoric?

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Old 08-09-2000, 10:54 PM   #17
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: I“ll leave my scimitar in its scabbard anyway...

Sharku, in what way is dropping incendiary bombs and burning thousands of people alive an accident? Fighter planes were also used to strafe the fleeing survivors. Is this an example of the German reputation for thoroughness and attention to detail?

You cannot seriously expect to make such an inflammatory remark as saying Guernica was an &quot;horrible mistake&quot; rather than a war crime and expect the subject to be dropped. Your remarks on this subject are ill-informed and I find them offensive.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>
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Old 08-09-2000, 11:39 PM   #18
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: ???

Forgive me if I am rudely interupting a heated discussion/argument here, but how did this innocent question on Galadriel, posted on a Tolkien forum board, develop into a debate on German War attrosities <img src=alien.gif ALT="0]"> ?

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Old 08-10-2000, 02:32 AM   #19
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: ???

In order not to let this &quot;Galadriel&quot;-topic stray even more afar from its original sense, I“d just like to explain to Taimar the reasons which led me to my, rather bold and probably tactless - sorry if so - labelling of Guernica.
Guernica was long known as a place of hard republican resistance, many high-ranked communists who were in contact with Stalin resided there. The aim of the attack which went so terribly wrong was to bomb the &quot;bridge and the diverging road way eastward of Guernica&quot; (German order, 4/26/1937). 23 planes were involved, sight was bad, the aiming systems of the JU 52 (&quot;Stukas&quot were not equipped for pinpoint-attacks. Because of this, a part of the bombs fell on the town, where most of the citizens were luckily guarded in cellars and bunkers. A third of Guernica was damaged. After extinguishing and recovery works, 226 people were found to be dead. Communist propaganda later multiplied this number by 10. Even reeducationary works like the &quot;Great Encyclopedia of the Third Reich&quot; admit that the death toll hovers between 100 and 1600, and that it is possible &quot;that a part of the destruction was only after the raid committed by republican milices and Basque miners (&quot;Dinamiteros&quot in order to leave nothing of use to the advancing enemy (following the principle of &quot;Burnt Earth&quot &quot;.
I know that Guernica is often used to show the cruel atrocities committed by the German side. With the above facts in mind, I just think that is a bad example, nothing else. I never had the intention of justifying or making appear less the atrocities and crimes committed by Germans and their allies during the twelve years of NS. This, in my country, illegal behaviour, never lay at the heart of my discussion, and I think that I never have done so, or could have been percepted of doing so. It is just that I would like people to be less ready to use Germany, especially during WWII, as the example of everything evil, even like Sauron. I guess you can understand this, because although I am by no means a supporter of Nazism, it still affects me since my ancestors are WWII-Germans who never were followers of Hitler.
Of course I apologize sincerely if I hurt anybody“s feelings through my non-conformistic views; I“d regret having done so deeply.
For the sake of this Middle-Earth discussion board, I would now propose to let the historical topics rest for good if everybody can accept my apologies. And I solemnly promise to remain silent in the future when it comes to this field again.

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000003>Sharku</A> at: 8/10/00 5:23:29 am
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Old 08-10-2000, 03:36 AM   #20
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: ???

There are yet elements of your account that appear dubious to those of us who take an interest in these things. Not really the point though.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It is just that I would like people to be less ready to use Germany, especially during WWII, as the example of everything evil, even like Sauron.<hr></blockquote>
While I am not unsympathetic to the burden which post-war generations in Germany may feel called upon to bear, it seems to me that my criticism of Neville Chamberlain's conduct salts that wound rather obliquely. In this case, Nazi Germany represents only the common background of western experience in this century. One could have as well spoken of English indifference to the Armenian Genocide or American indifference to events in Cambodia but they seemed like examples less likely to resonate with my presumed audience and less apt to my case.
Having used the example of English policy as my particular example of moral culpability and having carefully shunned the issues of Spain, the Rhineland, and Czechoslovakia, I was surprised at your defensive reply, the one which elicited Taimar's Guernica post.
I don't think that the example of Nazi Germany will be expunged from the historical record soon. If you are not implicated in it, for heaven sake don't answer for it and don't apologize for it.

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Old 08-10-2000, 05:01 AM   #21
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: ???

A gracious apology, Sharku. Like Galpsi, I would disagree strongly with your account of the events of April 1937. However, I agree that it is best that we let this matter drop. I apologize for labelling your genuinely held beliefs as `offensive` in my earlier post. My Celtic blood was simmering nicely when I wrote it. My paternal grandfather, like many young Scots, fought against Franco as a volunteer and he was in Guernica only a day or two after the bombing. If his account is to be believed (my father still has letters he sent home at this time), casualty figures were rather higher than the 226 you mentioned.

Even 60 years later the Second World War is still an open wound for many people. My aforementioned ancestor died during the retreat from Dunkirk in 1940, so I found it difficult to accept what I, perhaps unfairly, considered an apology for Nazi aggression.

Anyway, now that I have cooled down (a morning at work for the Civil Service does that to you), I also promise to leave the subject alone, since the debate can only grow more heated.

No hard feelings, Sharku,

Regards,

Taimar.



Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000099>Taimar</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/black_ball.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 8/10/00 7:02:47 am
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Old 08-10-2000, 10:01 AM   #22
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: ???

Alright, let“s drop it.
I have to work again tomorrow anyway (civil service in a geriatric hospital“s kitchen because I refused military service <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> )


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Old 08-10-2000, 01:36 PM   #23
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> galadriel

Galpsi, you are right in pointing out my inconsistencies. I retract my statement of 'calling it the big picture might be going overboard'.I ws trying to be a little diplomatic-instead of sincere<img src=smile.gif ALT="">
I really think that if a writer left 40 or so pages of detailed writing about a major characther-that gives far more information upon which to understand that character-then anyone wishing to participate in a detailed analysis of said character would want to avail themselves of it.
clearly some people will come to a different conclusion--as in all things- so be it.
It is to me slightly ironic that by you seem to be erecting a sort of 'lothlorienizing'or maybe better explained as a girdle of melian around the lotr .
bout since several people concurred and said [paraphrase]' I think Galadriel is overrated' and I endeavored to to display what I think JRRT himself would call the 'background' using in my first post examples based almost exsclusively from LotR . This was I feel the more essential of the 2 major posts of mine .
I then turned back to Unfinished Tales chapter on Galadriel and Celeborn , and was suprised to find such a rich detail of her second age history.I surmise that JRRT has told us more of her in the second age than anyone else.
Now since these are JRRT's own thoughts I immediately inferred that others would be interested in the tale of her extensive travels and purpose. I can see that one would say the LotR stands alone if they just wanted to 'enjoy the story as -and not try and penetrate into the story behind the story'[a paraphrase of JRRT qouted in the silm. intro.] but this is after all a Tolkien discussion
and I come here to do that and am always happy to come away from the forums knowing something I didn't about the vast world of M.E.
I was also recently inspired by M. Martinez's recent essay on Gil-Galad where he pulls together an incredible amount of information from every source he can find and brings up points I had never seen .
These are JRRT's own thoughts on Galadriel- so I felt free and justified to use them , for 2 other reasons: 1] If one wrote to the Professor while he was alive and responding to these things , he has been shown to have drawn on the whole of the legendarium for his answers [sometimes 'co-creating' as he replied!].
2] I have seen people use the lore contained in his Letters and more often the Silm to settle [or I would rather say try and strike the bottom of the well] regarding matters in which the LotR leaves without answers;most recently in the matters of Tom Bombadil [his non-Maia nature ] Glorfindel , the 3 rings and the blue wizards that are mentioned only in U.T. and HoME these have always been seen as valid.
I have a spare copy of U.T and if you like I would be happy to send it to you , i f you don't have it.
lindil


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Old 08-10-2000, 02:04 PM   #24
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: galadriel

Firstly, let's have peace between us. You need hardly appeal to me for the right to dissent. We disagree and that's fine.
I don't think that anybody defers to my authority in this or aught else, nor do I intend to be the arbiter of all things Tolkien. I gave my opinion on the merits of extra-literary materials; you gave yours. If you prefer to think my literary analyses shallow, you are welcome to. Nor would you be the first to have said so.
I thought that your 'lothlorienizing' riposte was witty but I retain the privilege of thinking that my point was different than that.
I do, however, think that lots of members feel as you do and I hope that you will continue to draw upon whatsoever you wish in your posts.
I'm simply more interested in LotR than in JRRT's other production because I think that it has the greatest literary merit. For that reason, I prefer to deal with it mostly on its own terms. In this regard, I may differ from the Professor but I am content to.
Thank you for your kind offer of UT, but I think that I am unlikely to read it any time soon and so I believe that it would be better kept or given to another. My term begins soon and my class responsibilities do not permit me much leisure for pleasure reading.
g.

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Old 08-10-2000, 08:23 PM   #25
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: galadriel

Whew! Heavy discussion. Coming into this late, I'm not going to try to figure out who I'm agreeing or disagreeing with. We know that JRRT felt that Galadriel was important as a factor of her lineage and the time he dedicated to writing about her in a purely biographical sense. But what her precise history was is never resolved by JRRT. Celeborn is a Teleri in one version and a Sinda in another. Did she live with Melian? Probably. I'll come back to this one another time.

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Old 08-11-2000, 10:43 AM   #26
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> I'm gonna defend the Lady that gave me on my belt!

I'm not sure that I am still on-topic in this Galdriel debate, but I still want to add my 2 cents worth.

Galadriel may not have appeared to be so active in this time crisis, because it just simply wasn't her problem. In the first age she and the rest of the zealous Noldor, fought to the hilt against Morgoth, however futily. After the War of Wrath and the final destruction of the Silmarils, (Unless of course that Arkenstone thing comes through, just kidding) all of the Eldar were encouraged to leave Middle Earth and return to Valinor. The Middle Earth was not to be theirs, at least according to the Valar, it was to belong to the men and dwarves and other mortal creatures. (Were there hobbits yet?) Galadriel was the only Noldorian leader that resisted once more and remained in the Middle Earth for the Third Age. This war against Sauron was not their war. It was the coming of the inheritance of men. Elves would forsake Middle Earth whatever the outcome. She needed to remain for the wisodm she could teach to the up-coming rulers of the Middle Earth, but it was not her war to fight. Gandalf was more active because he was specifically designated as the enemey of Sauron. So when the Third Age ended Elves had to depart and the men were much better for having won the war and beginning the new age with the knowledge the Elves gave them instead of having the Elves win it for them.

I think I'd like a nickel for that!

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000141>Boromir</A> at: 8/11/00 12:45:05 pm
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Old 08-11-2000, 01:43 PM   #27
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: I'm gonna defend the Lady that gave me my belt!

Boromir, you have grown during your stay in the Halls of Mandos. You are a more insightful Boromir than the one I remember from Imladris.
But you won't get a nickel from me; I already owe someone here a dollar.

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Old 12-22-2002, 10:29 PM   #28
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The talk of ww2 would have sickened JRRT. Galadriel embodied old elvendom alive, just as Elrond embodies the memory of old elvendom past.
Celeborn is just Galadriel's BoyToy. (sorry to put that bluntly, but I am sure it is true.)
Nevil Chamberlin and Guarnica simply don't aply to this discussion as JRRT's mind did not work that way. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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Old 12-22-2002, 10:55 PM   #29
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I hope I won't offend any women libbers or Catholics with this post, but I think Tolkien sort of saw Galadriel as a sort of Virgin Mary type. Her role seems to be to inspire, encourage, and equip others rather than affect the battle through her own actions. Tolkien's women in leadership roles tend to display strength, but not agression or other traditionally masculine traits.

Galadriel carries great responsibility and exercises decision-making leadership rather than aggressive martialling of forces. When Galadriel does exercise aggressive power it seems to be in a metaphysical/spiritual realm. Her light comes from who she is rather than what she does.

Whatever else Celeborn is, he seems to be a strength and encouragement to Galadriel. Sometimes those with great responsiblity need someone beside them whose focus is supporting them. This may be Celeborn's role.
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Old 12-26-2002, 11:07 PM   #30
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ah, the old days, when even using UT was considered suspect...
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Old 12-27-2002, 11:31 AM   #31
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Lindil's original interpretation of Galadriel is most succinct. UT and Peoples of ME give some insight on what JRRT had in mind in developing the character. It seems to me that he did want to revise some of her history to build her character (not quite as high/important as the Virgin Mary - no no no!)to a status that equalled Feanor himself ('she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar...'). One of the few (if not only)elves left in Middle Earth to have gazed upon the Two Trees invokes to me that she has both wisdom and power incomparable to any non-Maian creature in Middle Earth. And, as noted by Lindil, on top of that she studied under the maian Melian for how many years? Hundreds? Thousands? Remember Melian's girdle protected Doriath from Morgoths shadow. Morgoth's "ring" was the very land of Middle Earth (MR). And it is so reflected in her strategy of resistance. I think her power was not in the leading of forces but the resitance of shadow. I think what her disposition reflects is the tutalage of Melian plus the lessoned learned from the revolt of the Noldor - grabbing your sword and rushing out to battle resulted ultimately in: (1) The goal of recovering the Silmarills failling utterlly, and (2) the complete destruction of Middle Earth - or at least a large swath of it...
It should be noted that there were more than one foray against Sauron by her people. She may have not been at the front, but I would like to think she instigated and coordinated the assaults and maybe left the command of the Galadhrim to Celeborn for logistic reasons.
Also the gift to Gimli was a huge thing when it is noted that the same request to her by Feanor was rejected (mabye inspiring him to create the Silmarills?). Gift indeed...
It's a shame to me that the author could not complete the works and the theme of Galadriel's character.
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Old 12-27-2002, 12:51 PM   #32
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welcome to the downs and a worthy 1st post drigel [ though I should not be the one to say it].

I am actually amazed at those 2 'essays' on Galadriel at the begining of the thread as they are better than anything I think I could write now.

In our Silmarillion [see second link in my sig] work I am mighty tempted to propose adhering to the latter conceptions of Galadriel even though it would mean creating a new LotR canon [well a new RGEO canon] [ a big no-no in our book, but possibly allowable on the grounds that by changing Celeborn's parentage we save far more of his conception of Galadriel].


But I have really come to fell that JRRT really did want to place Galadriel as an 'Yin' or feminine counter to Feanor's 'Yang' brash impulsive creativity. And that he felt this was an extremely important component of the Legendarium.

He lived fast and hard and died young.

She lived slowly and wisely pondering on the mistakes of her people and alone survived among her kin.

He desired to Rule the Noldor but never did.

She ruled the most Elvish Kingdom [in that they managed to nearly stop time and create a near Valinorean realm of bliss] ever to exist in M-E by invitation ! of the native inhabitant; a most unusual blend of Sylvan and Noldorin overcoming the usual Sylvan animosity to outsiders and 'High'-Elves.

She was able to give up the One Ring and the possibility to Rule the World and keep a permanent haven for Elves, Feanor could not give up the Silmarills even when asked by the valar.

She alone of the Noldorin Royalty lived to sail back to the Undying Lands. Feanor was the first to die [well almost, after the son he killed].

He was pure Noldorin, She was a blend of Noldor [1/2] and Vanyar and Teleri [1/4 each].

Feanor was ensnared by the mind of Morgoth even as he tried to fight him. Galadriel knew the mind of Sauron and resisited him with utmost effectiveness and subtlty.

I am sure more can be said, but as Drigel has mentioned JRRT greatly expanded upon her role as he grew older and I think he would have changed Celeborn to Teleri in the LotR/RSoG. In all honesty he probably forgot that he had nailed the parentage of Celeborn down, but even if he had stuck with it he still I think would have had Galadriel depart seperately from those who had participated in the Kin-Slaying.

For those wondering for the sources for all of this look to UT [ the chapter Galadriel and Celeborn] and Peoples of Middle-Earth [ the Shibboleth of Feanor] along with the Letters.

actually I got my parental ratio's confused; she was 1/2 Telerin 1/4 Noldorin and 1/4 Vanyarin.

[ December 27, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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Old 12-27-2002, 01:19 PM   #33
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Did this topic get resurrected from a couple of days ago?
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Old 12-27-2002, 02:11 PM   #34
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the dates next to each post tell it's history. Yes it lay fallow for nearly a year and a 1/2. Probably due to the unusual WWII interludes.

And a warm welcome to the Barrow-Downs Willow.

[ December 27, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 12-27-2002, 02:54 PM   #35
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I just wanted to throw in my 2 pence on the subject. I fell in love with the Lady of the Wood at the onset and will defend her honor to the death.
For TLOTR, her character was the "purest" of elvendom. And (I think) the best device for JRRT to express the elves story in one character: millenia old, mysterious, sorceress, powerfull, tragic, and whose time has come to an end - wonderfull stuff! She definatelly was the springboard for my further readings.
Lindil, I enjoy your musings and tip my hat to your scholorship!
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Old 12-27-2002, 03:01 PM   #36
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Most glad to be of service!

Enjoy your tenure here at the Downs and be heartned that there are some here whose depth in Elven-lore leaves me in amaze at times.

And of course come visit the New Silmarillion forum sometime when you have a year or so to spare!
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Old 01-08-2003, 10:13 PM   #37
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I don't why some people say Galadriel was too.."passive" in the War. Galadriel was the Queen of her people, and as Queen, she had a responsibilty to keep her people and lands safe.
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Old 01-09-2003, 12:13 AM   #38
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A lot of people have had unrealistic expectations of what very powerful individuals with relatively small communites [ Rivendell, Lothlorien] could do against Sauron.

Elrond and Galadriel excelled in psychic and underground efforts.

They knew better than try and go toe to toe w/ Sauron [ Galadriel's brother Finrod having been killed that way in the protection of Elrond's great-grandfather] and they knew that no last Alliance was possible again [ on any such scale, at least] also they clearly functioned on intuition - knowing Sauron could not be defeqated by might but also that the Valar were watching [inferred from the presence of the Istari who clearly were not Men or Elves, and indeed Galadriel may have recalled olorin from Valinor] and thus they were able to have faith that a way against Sauron would be appear, provided they remained alert and vigilant.

Wu-Wei
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Old 01-09-2003, 03:42 AM   #39
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I think that Tolkien drew parrarels to Galadriel's part in the war against Sauron to Manwe's ruling of Arda?
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Old 01-09-2003, 11:16 AM   #40
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i don't understand why Galadriel changed her name to Galadriel. i mean, if she was supposed to be one of the highest of the Noldor on Middle-earth, and the Noldor speak Quenya, then why did she use the Sindarin version of her name? and anyway, the Sindarin-speaking elves would be calling her 'light lady', pretty much. it doesn't make sense to me to do rid of such a pretty name (Altariel, which makes her sound tall) and changing it. (Galadriel, whilst still a pretty name, doesn't have such a ring to it) Personally, i would have kept Altariel.

When was Galadriel born? I suppose that records of time don't go back (in years) before the time hat Anar rose. but how long was an age? and how many ages of lamps, and stars, were there? It's just too confusing. It is, thus, pretty damn impossible to tell people how old Galadriel is when they make the stupid mistake of asking. it doesn't really matter, does it, because she's going to live forever so who really cares how old she is. i'm sure Manwe must know, though.
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