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Old 06-23-2001, 04:34 PM   #1
Eldar14
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In the Sil, I found the 3 quotes, that, when all viewed at the same time seems to make a contridiction. the first is <blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoe to them concerning weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears.&quot;<hr></blockquote> I interpret this quote as to say that Melkor taught the Noldor how to make weapons, and what exactly what weapons were. It seems as if the Noldor knew nothing of weapons before this. The second quote is <blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;And he had never lent ear to Morgoth, nor welcomed him to his land&quot;<hr></blockquote> This quote is about Olwe, lord of the Teleri. The third quote is <blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Then swords were drawn, and a bitter fight was fought upon the ship&quot;<hr></blockquote> This last quote is about when the Teleri and the Noldor fought eachother over the Teleri's ships. However, the idea that the elves didn't know about swords until Melkor told them, and how the Teleri never allowed Melkor into their land, would prevent the Teleri from having swords. But, if the Teleri didn't have swords, how did they draw swords?

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Old 06-23-2001, 05:02 PM   #2
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: But how did they know about swords?

The Noldor went about openly with decorative (and deadly) swords. They certainly must have shared thier craft with their seafaring kin, not being at strife with them until after Melkor left Aman.

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Old 06-24-2001, 11:48 AM   #3
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: But how did they know about swords?

No, I don't think they did. If I remember correctly, the Sil mentioned something about the Noldor only carrying around their sheilds, and leaving all of their other weaponry at home for most of the time that they had weapons. I'll check the next time i get a chance. (I think it's in the same paragraph that mentions Melkor telling the Noldor about weapons)

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Old 06-24-2001, 06:41 PM   #4
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: But how did they know about swords?

The swords would have made excellent toothpicks. And the Teleri were always eating ribs.. its only makes sense.

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Old 06-24-2001, 08:54 PM   #5
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: But how did they know about swords?

Mmmmm... ribs

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Old 06-25-2001, 10:39 AM   #6
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: But how did they know about swords?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> THE BOOKS forum is for serious discussions about Middle-Earth<hr></blockquote><img src=smile.gif ALT="">
<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

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Old 06-25-2001, 07:11 PM   #7
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: But how did they know about swords?

Swords are only big knives.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 6/25/01 9:15:04 pm
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Old 06-25-2001, 07:13 PM   #8
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: But how did they know about swords?

On the Teleri, the standard Silmarillion text says:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But the Teleri withstood him and cast many of the Noldor into the sea. Then swords were drawn, and a bitter fight was fought upon the ships, and about the lamplit quays and piers of the Haven, and even upon the great arch of its gate.<hr></blockquote>Since we are previously told that only the Noldor were making swords, it appears the swords were drawn by the Noldor against Teleri who were unarmed, at least as far as having swords.

I would imagine that some Teleri would go for their knives soon enough and use oars and other implement as clubs, and began hurling fishing spears. In the next paragraph:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> For the Noldor were becoming fierce and desperate, and the Teleri had less strength, and were armed for the most part but with slender bows.<hr></blockquote>So hunting bows were certainly known and used.

Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10), &quot;The Annals of Aman&quot;, 97, definitely states that the Elves had previously known no weapons, but in the note to that passage Christopher Tolkien states:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Against the words 'Melkor spoke to the Eldar concerning weapons, which they had not before possessed or known' my father wrote on the typescript: 'No! They must have had weapons on the Great Journey.' Cf. the passage in QS on the subject (footnote to 49): 'The Elves had before possessed only weapons of the chase, spears and bows and arrows.'<hr></blockquote>This material probably should have appeared in the published Silmarillion.

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Old 06-26-2001, 07:34 AM   #9
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Knives

Au Contraire, Jallanite. Knives are only small swords!

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Old 06-26-2001, 06:15 PM   #10
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Knives

If fish-knives are swords, then needles are spears.

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Old 06-26-2001, 06:36 PM   #11
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Re: But how did they know about swords?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Then swords were drawn, and a bitter fight was fought upon the ships, and about the lamplit quays and piers of the Haven, and even upon the great arch of its gate. Thrice the people of Fanor were driven back, and many were slain upon either side;&quot;<hr></blockquote> I don't really understand how the Teleri, only armed with bows and knives, could fight off the Noldor three times, who were armed with true weapons like swords and shields. Maybe the Teleri had some advantage which I haven't picked up on, but I don't think so. (does anybody know of how many Teleri and Noldor were involved in this battle?)

edit: fixed a few typos in the quote

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000009>Eldar14</A> at: 6/26/01 8:38:02 pm
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Old 06-26-2001, 07:14 PM   #12
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: But how did they know about swords?

I think the Teleri would have the advantage because they knew their haven better than the other elves, and were less awkward on their home turf than the Noldor who rarely came to Alqualonde. But that's just my theory. As for the numbers involved, I believe, it was all the Noldor exiles verses all of the Teleri at Alqualonde at the time.

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Old 06-26-2001, 09:22 PM   #13
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: But how did they know about swords?

I'll also chip in that neither side were battle-hardened warriors. Though the Noldor had superior weaponry, they'd never used it to attack their brethren before.

I'd also suggest that, as the aggressors, the rank-and-file Noldor might have been more hesitant and tentative than the Teleri, who were defending their home turf and fighting for their lives.

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Old 06-27-2001, 09:57 AM   #14
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Re: But how did they know about swords?

Actually, those three times they were beaten back, it was not all of the Noldor there. Some more Noldor arrived after the three times, and then they won. And about the battle numbers, how many Teleri actually were there, and did they all fight, or just the men? That's all I can think of for now.

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Old 06-27-2001, 05:47 PM   #15
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Re: But how did they know about swords?

In The Sillmarillion Fanor hastens to Alqualond (alone?) and attempts to gain the Teleri to his cause. They are unmoved and refuse to either give ship or help in building them.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thereupon Fanor left him, and sat in dark thought beyond the walls of Alqualond, until his host was assembled. When he judged that his strength was enough, he went to the Haven of the Swans and began to man the ships that were anchored there and to take them away by force.<hr></blockquote>This is somewhat vague but makes it clear enough that he certainly did not lead all the Noldor, and probably not all his host, and his plan was simply to steal the ships.

More details are in The Book of Lost Tales 1 which in this part is sufficiently in agreement with later acounts to be taken as still valid if one wishes, and is much more detailed. The Noldor take ships and load them with their women and children, and sail to the mouth of the harbour. The Solosimpi (the later Teleri) threaten the Noldor in the ships with bows from on top of the cliff wall where the archway is that the ships must pass through.

The tale now rejoins the Silmarillion account as other Noldor come up:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and sped behind the Solosimpi, until suddenly coming upon them nigh the Haven's gate they slew them bitterly or cast them into the sea; and so perished the Eldar beneath the weapons of their kin, and that was a deed of horror.<hr></blockquote>But then the The Book of Lost Tales ceases to give details at just the point where The Silmarillion tells how the people of Fanor were driven back and starts to speak more specifically of the deeds of the battle.

In the BoLT version there is no earlier tale of the Noldor particularly forging weapons around this time, for the motif of quarrels between the families of the Noldor has yet to emerge. But probably swords are simply assumed in this account in the words &quot;the weapons of their kin.&quot; Later Tolkien may have questioned why the Noldor would have had such in the peace of Valinor, whence the story was devised that they were made by Melkor's counsel against supposed plotting by rival houses.




</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 6/27/01 7:50:43 pm
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Old 06-28-2001, 04:25 AM   #16
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Re: But how did they know about swords?

Mb the Teleri possessed harpoons for fishing for large fish. I assume that one can defend oneself adequately with a harpoon against someone weaponed with an sword (never tried it myself ofcourse).

"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." </p>
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Old 07-10-2001, 06:02 PM   #17
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Re: But how did they know about swords?

In my opinion, the Teleri were armed with bows and spears. I like the point brought up about the Noldor being hesitant in attacking their brethren. And they didn't exactly have warfare down to a science either. Besides, the Noldor may not have been able to swim and with all those weapons they would sink. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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Old 07-11-2001, 11:01 AM   #18
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Re: But how did they know about swords?

In terms of Eldar's point about bows fighting off spears -- between elf with a bow and one with a sword, I'll take the former, provided there is enough distance between them. It's hard to bring your sword to bear when you're felled by an arrow 50 feet from your opponent.

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Old 07-11-2001, 11:06 AM   #19
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Re: But how did they know about swords?

yes.

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Old 07-11-2001, 05:54 PM   #20
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: But how did they know about swords?

People have been known to use arrows as a stabbing weapon, provided the shaft does not break...

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