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Old 03-16-2001, 05:08 AM   #1
Suldaledhel
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Ring Was Saruman evil..

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Or was he simply deluded and tricked by the overwhelming nature of Sauron? Whenever I think about this, I recall the scene from Orthanc, after being thoroughly defeated, Sarumen cant leave, but cant stay. Being trapped by his own dishonesty towards both Gandalf and company, and Sauron. I still think of this and wonder, was Saruman genuinely evil? Or was he rather deluded by the prospect of the ring, which he had studied about, coming into his power? Anyone?

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Old 03-16-2001, 05:30 AM   #2
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Re: Was Saruman evil..

When I think of Saruman at Bag End, the answer is emphatically, yes!

Nothing that is evil was created so.

And the evil of mortals can be forgiven in repentance and redemption (at least in Tolkien's worldview, and mine).

But the evil of eternal creatures is a decision they make that has ramifications beyond the bounds of Time. But once within Time, perhaps they are subject to the same choices as Men. Hence, Gandalf's plea to Saruman to repent, and Saruman's wavering refusal. He chose evil again that day. And never repented of it. Even Sauron is thought to have been genuinely repentant for a time...

(Elves, I think, are immortal creatures, rather than eternal, and thus are more like Men in this regard. They can repent of their evil choices and seek to correct them.)



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Old 03-16-2001, 07:23 AM   #3
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Re: Was Saruman evil..

I agree with Gilthalion. Saruman was not evil to begin with but slowly became corrupted by his own desire for power and control. At first he deluded himself into believing that he continued to work towards the goals of the Istari, but later dropped even this pretense. Between LoTR and UT it appears Saruman became corrupted by his own desires well prior to the first time he looked into the Palantir.

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Old 03-16-2001, 11:52 PM   #4
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Evil

As a Maia he had no excuse. He was seduced by the very reason he came to M-E.
truly tragic.Gilthalion's immortal/Eternal distinctions are to my mind right on and reflect the difference between angels and humans in Christian theology that JRRT was using to form the parameters of M-E.

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Old 03-17-2001, 01:21 AM   #5
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Re: Evil

yes, Saruman definately had no excuse as to turning like that, but the tragic thing is he really wasnt evil in the very beginning. He just got rather jealous of Gandalf and spiteful and proud etc. he just built up that jealousy and it was what helped turn him when Sauron talked to him.also in UT it says that Varda said not the third and Curumo heard this and remembered it. that was probably the first straw.

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Old 03-17-2001, 04:45 AM   #6
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Re: Evil

Yes; even though Sauron seemed really the best, Varda did say Gandalf wouldn't go as the third-best. She saw something then, and later so did the person who gave Gandalf the ring, and so on. It just built up and up and by the end Saruman was evil. In the Orthanc was his last chance at I think he was savable; could have repented and made up for it - but when he rejected it he gave up everything that was good and wise in him and became fully, totally evil.

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Old 03-17-2001, 08:35 AM   #7
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also

He seems also to have come close moments before his death, when he realized that frodo did truly respect him and that frodo had grown great among the wise even as he had fallen, I imagine Gandalf was on some level aware of Saruman at this moment only a short distance away at Bombadillo's and may well have striven w/ saruman ,encouraging him to repent, even as he encouraged frodo to take off the ring. saruman of course was still unable to shake of the grip of ultimately Morgoth which belittles acts of love and pity and chokes off even reason and the insict for survival. saruman died and his spirit was not allowed to return to the west. I would imagine that as a maia he would in time be able to take shape again unless his spirit was literally dissipated to gratly as seems to be the case w/ Sauron. what sadness there must have been in Valinor and in Mithrandir's heart.

well let us look to our selves.





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Old 03-17-2001, 01:10 PM   #8
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Re: also

I was always wondering what exactly &quot;made&quot; or better turned Saruman to evil.
Sauron? the Ring? The need for power?

Any thoughts??

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Old 03-17-2001, 02:00 PM   #9
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: also

I always thought it was his own thirst (or hunger) for personal power, that eventually drove him to become evil...

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Old 03-17-2001, 02:37 PM   #10
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Re: also

Saruman's close study of Sauron played a large part in his turn to evil. Was it Elrond who said
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;It is perilous to study too deeply the arts of the Enemy&quot;<hr></blockquote>?

Saruman spent most of his time learning about Sauron and various dark things. That plus the jealousy he already felt torward Gandalf caused him to desire power. And power for its own sake is always a trait of evil in ME.

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Old 03-17-2001, 11:59 PM   #11
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Re: also

yeah i think its elrond that said it

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