Visitation Rights - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Orald · 02-13-2002, 07:28 PM

Elves from Tol Eressea where allowed to visit Numenorean's but Numenorean's were not allowed to visit the elves, now I know the Numenorean's shouldn't have been allowed to do this, but do you think the Elves should have? It is a double standard and the Valar must have realized this, why did they let this continue?

Thingol · 02-13-2002, 08:35 PM

During the first age elves and men were friends and allies. The elves probably wanted to continue visiting men and I doubt that the Valar wanted elves and men to become estranged. The Valar did not take into consideration man's overriding fear of death. The Valar like the elves could not understand man's fear so therefore couldn't forsee man's resentment of the elves. The Valar did not foresee man's jealousy of the elven immortality, because they looked on death as a gift.

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

Lush · 02-13-2002, 10:10 PM

Guess the grass is still greener on the other side of the Sea. For both Elves and Men.

Orald · 02-14-2002, 10:53 AM

Elves and men wouldn't have had to become estranged, elves leaving Middle-Earth could have used Numenor as a resting point before they finally left into the West. And I find it hard to believe the Valar wouldn't have realized man's envy of elvish immortality, looking back to Athrabeth, the elves already know Man's thoughts on life and death.

And another thing, what is keeping the elves from sailing all the way back to ME? They go to Numenor and there is nothing particularly special about that land.

KayQy · 02-14-2002, 01:58 PM

I don't think it was a double standard. It was visiting Valinor that was forbidden to the Numenoreans, not the elves.

Aralaithiel · 02-14-2002, 04:00 PM

WARNING: The following statement should not be read as serious by anyone. Its' intent is purely comical.

See...we Elves are special. We get to live forever provided we don't collide with an arrow or blade, and we get to go to Valinor! Ooh boy! We understand if you mere mortals are jealous. The Valar like us better! LOL! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Thingol · 02-14-2002, 04:34 PM

I'm pretty sure that in the Letters Tolkien says that the straight road is one way. I remember Mithadan saying this in a post that you and I had posted in Durelen, and I remember looking it up somewhere but I can't seem to find it now. The post was about what happened to Frodo, but I can't find the post either. I didn't mean to say that the Valar didn't know about man's feelings about death, what I meant to emphasize was that they didn't understand it. Because they didn't understand the sway that it had over the mind's of men, they could not foresee the extreme reaction that men would have to being exposed to elven immortality. Plus Sauron helped them along once he got to Numenor. Tha Valar were pretty lenient with allowing elves access to the world outside Aman. The elves of Aman probably didn't want to be sundered from the men that they had fought beside during the first age.

***Mithadan*** · 02-14-2002, 04:58 PM

One disadvantage of having read HoME, Letters, etc. is that it becomes difficult to recall where you may have read something. You recall correctly that after the Fall of Numenor, Elves could not return to Middle Earth. This was a physical inability -- the Straight Road is one way (except for the Valar/Maiar).

I also recall reading that once Elves came to Tol Eressea (this would be either Exiles or Elves who had chosen not to come to Valinor, missed the boat (actually island) or gotten lost on the way) they were forbidden from returning to Middle Earth. So the Elves of the West may have had their own prohibition. Glorfindel apparently received leave to return due to his circumstances, but we know of no other who returned, say to help in the war against Sauron, so this may be correct.

As for the Elves who came to Numenor, they were welcomed by the Men who dwelt there until much later in the Second Age and stopped coming when they were no longer welcome. So this is less of a double standard than it may seem.

02-13-2002, 07:28 PM	#1
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	Visitation Rights Elves from Tol Eressea where allowed to visit Numenorean's but Numenorean's were not allowed to visit the elves, now I know the Numenorean's shouldn't have been allowed to do this, but do you think the Elves should have? It is a double standard and the Valar must have realized this, why did they let this continue?

02-13-2002, 08:35 PM	#2
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	During the first age elves and men were friends and allies. The elves probably wanted to continue visiting men and I doubt that the Valar wanted elves and men to become estranged. The Valar did not take into consideration man's overriding fear of death. The Valar like the elves could not understand man's fear so therefore couldn't forsee man's resentment of the elves. The Valar did not foresee man's jealousy of the elven immortality, because they looked on death as a gift. [ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ] __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

02-13-2002, 10:10 PM	#3
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Guess the grass is still greener on the other side of the Sea. For both Elves and Men. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

02-14-2002, 01:58 PM	#5
KayQy Wight Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Currently Spain Posts: 250	I don't think it was a double standard. It was visiting Valinor that was forbidden to the Numenoreans, not the elves. __________________ Do you really want to know / Or are you a little scared, Afraid that God is not exactly what you'd have Him be? --OC Supertones, "Wilderness" "Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter." -- Max Beerbohm

02-14-2002, 04:00 PM	#6
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	WARNING: The following statement should not be read as serious by anyone. Its' intent is purely comical. See...we Elves are special. We get to live forever provided we don't collide with an arrow or blade, and we get to go to Valinor! Ooh boy! We understand if you mere mortals are jealous. The Valar like us better! LOL! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

02-14-2002, 10:53 AM	#4
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	Elves and men wouldn't have had to become estranged, elves leaving Middle-Earth could have used Numenor as a resting point before they finally left into the West. And I find it hard to believe the Valar wouldn't have realized man's envy of elvish immortality, looking back to Athrabeth, the elves already know Man's thoughts on life and death. And another thing, what is keeping the elves from sailing all the way back to ME? They go to Numenor and there is nothing particularly special about that land.

02-14-2002, 04:34 PM	#7
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	I'm pretty sure that in the Letters Tolkien says that the straight road is one way. I remember Mithadan saying this in a post that you and I had posted in Durelen, and I remember looking it up somewhere but I can't seem to find it now. The post was about what happened to Frodo, but I can't find the post either. I didn't mean to say that the Valar didn't know about man's feelings about death, what I meant to emphasize was that they didn't understand it. Because they didn't understand the sway that it had over the mind's of men, they could not foresee the extreme reaction that men would have to being exposed to elven immortality. Plus Sauron helped them along once he got to Numenor. Tha Valar were pretty lenient with allowing elves access to the world outside Aman. The elves of Aman probably didn't want to be sundered from the men that they had fought beside during the first age. __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

02-14-2002, 04:58 PM	#8
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,314	One disadvantage of having read HoME, Letters, etc. is that it becomes difficult to recall where you may have read something. You recall correctly that after the Fall of Numenor, Elves could not return to Middle Earth. This was a physical inability -- the Straight Road is one way (except for the Valar/Maiar). I also recall reading that once Elves came to Tol Eressea (this would be either Exiles or Elves who had chosen not to come to Valinor, missed the boat (actually island) or gotten lost on the way) they were forbidden from returning to Middle Earth. So the Elves of the West may have had their own prohibition. Glorfindel apparently received leave to return due to his circumstances, but we know of no other who returned, say to help in the war against Sauron, so this may be correct. As for the Elves who came to Numenor, they were welcomed by the Men who dwelt there until much later in the Second Age and stopped coming when they were no longer welcome. So this is less of a double standard than it may seem. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.