Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

BG. Assuming ordo for now.

Then why the modly note at the end of yesterDay? Or did I miss something?


Sorry, kids, but I've given up on the epic recap. I'll work on a post to hop up with come toMorrow at Dawn (whatever thread I may be relegated to at that time) but for now I'll just hop in with commentary here and there.


As of now, I'll be voting for Nessa. She never really got better in my eyes. >.<

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Oh dear, I really seem to frustrate people by suspecting them in this game, don't I? As much as it pains me to admit this, it'll maybe comfort you Sallycakes that you were in the wolf category mostly because (possibly apart from Nessa) I'm suffering from a severe lack of suspects (disincluding possible cobblers of course).

edit: xed with the phantom

Fair enough, darling. I wasn't really cross, just flustered and confused. *pets you*

[Thinlómien]

Ugh, it's almost 3am. Shall be off to brush me teeth and voting once I come back unless there's been lots of interesting posts meanwhile.

Originally Posted by phantom

And that's disappointing news about Manwe. I was rather hoping we had lucked out on that one.

Maybe I shouldn't say this because I voted him myself, but you're attitude strikes me as bafflingly optimistic - or maybe it's more like you said that just because you felt the need to comment on that somehow because you're so conscious of yourself because maybe you're a wolf yourself? Rather random, I know, but kind of a mindset thing which caught my attention.


edit: xed with Sally

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Lommy

a fair point and makes Boro go quite high on my list of possible cobblers. (Alongside with Phantom, Glirdan, Lottie and several others. I wish I had as many wolf suspects.)

You only have Cobbler suspects because that's the only type of baddie you can legitimately help us look for, seeing as you're a Wolf.

I still stand by my accusation of Lommy on Day 1- here.

If she's not dead by tomorrow I believe I may enter into single-minded crusade mode.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by the phantom

You only have Cobbler suspects because that's the only type of baddie you can legitimately help us look for, seeing as you're a Wolf.

I still stand by my accusation of Lommy on Day 1- here.

If she's not dead by tomorrow I believe I may enter into single-minded crusade mode.

Easy, prince pudding. If she's a wolf, we'll catch her, but she won't be the only one, so don't get too single-minded.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Save more people or bring us more information? It’s up to us to decide which is more valuable.

No. If Glorfindel is killed now and comes back, there's very little new information he can give you and the wolves will grab the first opportunity to kill him for good. If he waits till later (before revealing, at least) till a lot more people are dead, he will be much more useful.

The seer dreaming the dead is just as useful as them dreaming the living. If we could figure out a way to keep a steady information flow, I think a dead seer could be just as useful as a living one.

Yes, at least when we're looking for connections between people. But if we want to lynch people, a living seer is better.

I’m not yet sure what I think about the whole Nog reveal thing

He was lying. You'll see why when you read further, but there's absolutely no way he was telling the truth.

Who are you and what have you done with Agan?

You mean, with the Agan who usually advises the gifteds herself?

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I don't get why my thinking her innocent is so suspicious.

Because I think there's little reason to think her innocent, but I won't argue against gut-feelings.

Yes but even when she's here she's not funny. *grumble grumble*

Ahaha you're never happy now aren't you!

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Then why the modly note at the end of yesterDay? Or did I miss something?

Whatever she was, she isn't anymore.

[satansaloser2005]

Agan's above post is full of win. That is all.



And yeah, I know BG is nothing now, but she clearly was before, at least by my reckoning.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Shasta

Oh, yes, and Fea is high on Nog's suspected list.

Ha ha ha!

Oooh Ooh!! I just got to the place in the thread where there are Lommy votes! I'm excited!

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

And yeah, I know BG is nothing now, but she clearly was before, at least by my reckoning.

Yes but we can't make much of it. The only person who talked about her was Mith who suggested we lynch her because she'd be modfired anyway. If she would've been a wolf, Mith looks better - especially in a game where the roles aren't revealed.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Oooh Ooh!! I just got to the place in the thread where there are Lommy votes! I'm excited!

Phantom, sometimes I am very fond of you.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Oooh Ooh!! I just got to the place in the thread where there are Lommy votes! I'm excited!

*grits teeth* You know, if you're going to start a single-minded crusade against me, I'll be all for a single-minded crusade against you (which is probably not smart given that you're most likely just a cobbler yourself).

Originally Posted by Agan

Ahaha you're never happy now aren't you!

No. She's become funnier, now, though, ha haa.

Anyway

++Nessa

for reasons previously stated. Good night!


edit: xed with Agan who likes all the nasty uncles who are mean to me

[the phantom]

Yeah... still think Boro's a Cobbler. If he's a Wolf playing Cobbler in order to survive then my hat is off to him. Sorry lad- it's just the impression that I've carried on from Day 1 and I haven't had a chance to hit the reset button, and I can't give you a better explanation than that.

Remembering her leading post from yesterday Daughter doesn't look great, but I kind of lost track of that in the action. She's a vote candidate for me I'd say.

Nessa... bleh... I really need to reread all of her stuff. For some reason I really don't have an impression of her at all. It's a bit unsettling.

Wilwa? How much has she been around this game? And Sally? Are we going to seed more of you?

I've lost my bearings on Green and Lottie, so, similarly to Nessa, I need to reread them. I've gotten good and bad from them I remember, but can't point to specifics.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

edit: xed with Agan who likes all the nasty uncles who are mean to me

If it's of any comfort, I also like it when you're mean to phantom (or Angu, or whoever you happen to be nasty to). I think it means I like mean people rather than just people who are mean to you.

[satansaloser2005]

Okieday, time to vote.

++Nessa

She initially struck me as evil, and that impression hasn't changed. Thus, death to her.

Phantom, I'll be around for quick bursts, but not too many long posts. I'll do what I can though, I promise. I have no idea where the muffin is though.



EDIT: x'd with Agan

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien;648207.

Come on, that's not very nice. I already said I didn't realise the revealment-vote thingy started yet (I didn't realise it started right after the death of the third peson, if you want to chastise me for something, you ought to chastise me for not reading the rules properly not for not reading other people's posts carefully) and that's why I was confused. I don't really like this post of yours, because either [I

you [/I]have not been reading my posts properly or you're intentionally trying to make me look ridiculous.

"Nogrod. Every indication is that of cobblery, even io to his dead vote"

This was the sentence after the one where Shasta says that Manwe has a wolf. You didn't have to read the rules carefully to get a fairly big reminder that the dead had started. So don't you get on your high horse with me when you have proved what I have said is true. You cannot claim both that you have read Shasta's post thoroughly AND that you were unaware of the dead vote starting.

I am not trying to make you look ridiculous. I am pointing out an inconsistency which is perfectly valid and as far as I can see I am on to something. I am now absolutely certain you are at least a cobbler.

[Aganzir]

I have been thinking about it, and the easiest way I could come up with is the one I mentioned briefly. Now I'd just like to hear opinions...

Basically, if the last player lynched (in case of a multiple lynch, the 1st to receive the highest number of votes) was not a wolf, we'll give the double vote to the player first on the player list, or if we don't trust her for one reason or another, the 2nd/3rd/etc. If the lynched player was a wolf, the last (or the 2nd/3rd/etc last) player gets the double vote the following day. If we do this, we should probably agree to stop when there's a set number of players left, say 6, because then the votes may have a much bigger influence.

We should probably just exclude possible seer information. If the seer reveals here, she can tell her dreams (except the last) to the village; if she dies before revealing, we have no way of letting the village know she was the seer.

I am aware people might disagree with me on the idea, saying they'd rather double the most innocent-looking player's vote, but I think it all comes down to how much we want to help the village. We can keep playing like we always have, vote for the person we like and leave the village wondering about why we chose her, or we can find a way to give them information.

The problems I can see with this are the baddies messing around, or the wolves basing their kills on who might get more votes. There are probably more but I'm not going to start thinking it through at this hour. Now the question is, do you think that (or something similar) is workable or is it too complicated/risky?

[the phantom]

Nerwen ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Boro ++ Lommy (2)
Legate ++ Nessa (2)
Lommy ++ Nessa (3)
Sally ++ Nessa (4)

So.... Can anyone lay out the case against Nessa for me? I'm going to try and lynch Lommy if I can, but I'd still like to know why her opponent is in contention.

[Aganzir]

I suppose I could vote for Nessa, just because last time I didn't I lived to regret it. My top choice is Boro, though. I rather didn't lynch Lommy now, and if I had to choose between the two, I'd vote for Nessa because Lomz is more vocal and leaves therefore more trails. I suppose there isn't enough support for a Greenie lynch, and I don't have quite enough against ed to merit a vote. Hmm.

Going to take a shower now and will vote after it.

[Boromir88]

I might as well not even try anymore, since obviously every word typed out of my fingers is a hint of some devilry. (Beware! It's another hint! Ahh I did it again! ) Love you as much as a I do Agan, if you say you know more about when I'm dropping hints to people than I do myself, you can't be surprised I'm going to disagree on that.

And Lommy, I never said anything about dropping your suspicions because you're a friend. I'm saying I thought I'd get better treatment, even if you were suspicious of me for good reason, and you wouldn't stand idly by for the vague feelings of guilt trumped up against me.

Originally Posted by phantom

Yeah... still think Boro's a Cobbler. If he's a Wolf playing Cobbler in order to survive then my hat is off to him. Sorry lad- it's just the impression that I've carried on from Day 1 and I haven't had a chance to hit the reset button, and I can't give you a better explanation than that.

Yeah, because that is really going to help me and give me a fair shot to prove to you I'm not a cobbler nor a wolf. Thanks bud.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Boro

Yeah, because that is really going to help me and give me a fair shot to prove to you I'm not a cobbler nor a wolf. Thanks bud.

You're not on the lynch menu currently, so you don't have to prove anything to me today. If we're both around next day I'll try and be better prepared to hash things out.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by the phantom

You're not on the lynch menu currently, so you don't have to prove anything to me today. If we're both around next day I'll try and be better prepared to hash things out.

Fair enough.

I should retire, even if I'm not on the "menu" today, I'm not liking where this is heading against Nessa, but can't do anything about that now other than get more grumpy.

[the phantom]

Boro- why is Nessa under threat and why don't you like it?

People against Nessa- I'd like to hear your versions as well.

[Nessa Telrunya]

++Lommy

Because I don't want to die, and she has the closest number of votes. I do, however, feel like the cases against her are quite valid.

EDIT Xed with phantom: I'm just that tricksy, I suppose. Not to mention as grey as paint drying on a wall.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by phantom

Boro- why is Nessa under threat and why don't you like it?

She's got 4 votes already and at least Agan is seriously considering voting her. Don't know where Shasta or others who haven't voted stand.

As to why I don't like it, it looks far to easy as I said in post 459:

I think Nessa's too easy of a target. Granted, that's what everyone said when she was a wolf previously, that she was getting framed, but then she fueled the idea she was getting framed. I think we tend to forget when you really don't have any information it's difficult to come up with some impeccable shiny-phantom idea. All you can really do is read what's posted, guess at who sounds good to you, which typically looks like you're just sitting back and going with the flow. Going with the flow is not really a solid reason to suspect someone of wolvery, and Glirdan, you shouldn't overlook the times when Nessa has added her own ideas.

and why I didn't like how there were attempts yesterday to get attention and pressure away from Nogrod onto Nessa. Since, I've been highly suspicious of Nog from basically his first post, I don't trust those who have tried to divert the pressure away from him and onto Nessa.

Edit: crossed with Nessa

[the phantom]

Wow, I guess I didn't realize how few posts Nessa had. I just reread them all.

And my basic impression? Cobblerish. Not Wolvish.

(x-post Boro)

[elronds_daughter]

Originally Posted by Lommy

I have the impression of her as Winnie the Pooh stuck in my head (apologies if this is insulting, but I personally adore Winnie the Pooh)!

Not insulting at all, dear. I think it's a lovely sentiment. (Though I'm trying not to let my sudden fondness of you colour my objectivity...)

Originally Posted by the phantom

People against Nessa- I'd like to hear your versions as well.

I concur. I'm not quite understanding why we don't like Nessa. (Do we ever? )
Same for Lommy, please. I don't understand the reasoning behind that one either.

EDIT: x'ed with Boro and tp. Thanks for the concise explanation on Nessa.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nerwen ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Boro ++ Lommy (2)
Legate ++ Nessa (2)
Lommy ++ Nessa (3)
Sally ++ Nessa (4)

So.... Can anyone lay out the case against Nessa for me? I'm going to try and lynch Lommy if I can, but I'd still like to know why her opponent is in contention.

Well, this may seem hypocritical coming from the person who cast the first vote on her, but I'm rather surprised to see her get so many votes myself. I mean, it is a quite thin case– two dubious votes, plus what looks like an earlier attempt to deflect suspicion of Nogrod back on his accusers. And the business between Boro and Greenie over her. But then it's also true that it's hard to make a good case on anyone right now– I mean, case for wolvishness rather than cobblery.

I haven't ready beyond this last page yet, though, so I don't know what else has happened.

EDIT:X'd with numerous.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Daughter

Same for Lommy, please. I don't understand the reasoning behind that one either.

I wish to kill Lommy primarily because of the vibe she gave off with her Day 1 Cobbler pointing/instructions, and it seems to me she's continued to be unable to completely shake off that attitude because (so I think) she's a Wolf and thus finding Cobblers is the only help she can offer. And her comment about how Cobblers would have all sorts of brilliant stuff planned... just the way she said it made me think that it was almost a plea/demand "You'd better have some schemes to help us, Cobblers!"

Plus she's a Penguin.

[Mithalwen]

For me, well she isn't as I remember her being when innocent but since that feelingy stuff isn't helpful to third party, it always rings alarm bells when people stay stuff which patently isn't true. It isn't plausible that she could have read Shasta's post 411 thoroughly and not been aware of the dead starting to vote. If she had read it and been a suprised innocent then surely she would have checked the rules. Feigning ignorance of the situation is a wolf tactic I ahve encountered before I find it really suspicious, Trying to make it some kind of personal attack is simply evading the issue.

I just can't believe she is on the side of the angels and if a baddie I would say wolf because the cobblers would need Shasta's info for their own ends. The wolves already know who is a wolf,

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Love you as much as a I do Agan, if you say you know more about when I'm dropping hints to people than I do myself, you can't be surprised I'm going to disagree on that.

Obviously. I'm not saying I know more but that it looked like it.

By the way, if you can't make up your mind you can always lynch me because I'm going to die today anyway. That way we could find out Nog's role without there being any other unknowns to check.

Phantom, Boro, Nerwen, ed, Nessa, Mith - or whoever is around - what do you think about the message sending thing? Is it worth trying? I am obviously not going to push it, but I'm not sure I like that it's being ignored (especially by people who discussed earlier if there's any way to do it. Yes I'm talking about you, phantom). You had better speak up now because I can't promise we'll do anything you tell us to with the double votes (be it part of an ingenious plot or not) if we don't have a way to comment on it first.

++Boro

Because I don't particularly care if Nessa or Lommy dies. There are points for and against both, I guess, but because I don't have a very strong opinion on either, I'm not confident enough to sway it one way or other.

I trust my lover to take care of everything and make sure you don't do anything silly while I sleep. Going now, see you in the afterlife.

[Mithalwen]

Agan - the vote thing seems fine I only didnt' comment because I know I don't have the best strategic mind and someone who does might give a better opinion.

[Glirdan]

Not gonna lie, I did lol a bit at this, but still....

Originally Posted by phantom

Plus she's a Penguin.

Yes phantom, because pointing that out is going to help your case.


I will try and check or Ms. Vanilwa has made off to.

As for the way the voting is going....I am pretty set on Nessa, but I still see the points that were raised against Lommy. The problem is neither of them are really screaming Wolf to me.

I don't know what to do at this point

[the phantom]

Agan- about your voting system...

You're saying that you'll always check whoever we lynch, and you will give extra votes to us based upon innocence and guilt, correct?

So, if we lynch person X and he is a Wolf, you will give power to the last person on the list, if we lynch person X and he's not a Wolf, you will give power to the first person on the list?

I think it may be helpful for a couple of days anyway, but if we commit to it the Wolves could just bump off people based upon name order so that one of them receives the extra votes each day, or at least so that one of them has a good shot at it. Particularly late in the game that could be dicey, so I'd say we should set a hard line end-date on it.

[the phantom]

Mith- who are you speaking of in #508?

(Sorry for being so disorganized today- have unexpected tasks that are dividing my attention here.)

[Mithalwen]

Sorry TP I was stating for the benefit of Elrond's Daughter why I was gunning for Lommy.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I will try and check or Ms. Vanilwa has made off to.

Good. Because if this continues I'm going to want to lynch her. It's way too convenient "Oops, I didn't know we started!" and now keeping her head low to stay out of the fights. I don't like that sort of thing.

[the phantom]

The Voting:

Nerwen ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Boro ++ Lommy (2)
Legate ++ Nessa (2)
Lommy ++ Nessa (3)
Sally ++ Nessa (4)
Nessa ++ Lommy (3)
Agan ++ Boro

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by phantom

Agan- about your voting system...

You're saying that you'll always check whoever we lynch, and you will give extra votes to us based upon innocence and guilt, correct?

So, if we lynch person X and he is a Wolf, you will give power to the last person on the list, if we lynch person X and he's not a Wolf, you will give power to the first person on the list?

I think it may be helpful for a couple of days anyway, but if we commit to it the Wolves could just bump off people based upon name order so that one of them receives the extra votes each day, or at least so that one of them has a good shot at it. Particularly late in the game that could be dicey, so I'd say we should set a hard line end-date on it.

Yes... I can't see any other way of doing it, and yet that system could get derailed so easily (beyond the grave as well). Maybe just use it for one or two Days?

Anyway, Agan, make sure and let us know exactly what you plan to do before toDay's over.

EDIT:X'd since phantom at #513.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by phantyphace

Good. Because if this continues I'm going to want to lynch her. It's way too convenient "Oops, I didn't know we started!" and now keeping her head low to stay out of the fights. I don't like that sort of thing.

Okay, I know this is total meta-reasoning, but here goes anyways. I think it would be a total waste to lynch her. For one, I know Wilwa better then she knows herself half the time and I usually can tell whether or not she's got a role. Her absence and lack of....shall we say enthusiasm (and because I know she has a LOT of stuff going on in RL)...leads me to believe in her innocence.

Second, if she does not post or vote two days consecutively, she will end up like BeiGei and getting modfired.

And Agan, I would have to disagree with your post earlier on my anaylsis of her for this reason. A Wolfwa wouldn't be this careless.

EDIT: xed with Nerwen

[the phantom]

Thinking back on the events of yesterday, at the time when Nessa sided with Nog and voted for me, there had already been some stiff resistance put up against him. Why would she not enter the debate at any point or await a resolution or anything but rather just swoop in with "I believe him" and vote?

In some games Wolves have been too eager to believe Seer claims because they want to look like they're on the right side. But in this case with the claim so hotly contested I don't think it works the same. Especially if she's a WW it doesn't work because she could've perhaps gained some credibility by siding against a perceived Nobbler, right? I don't think her move makes sense from a WW perspective, but perhaps it does if she's a Cobbler, as she would simply want to come down on the wrong side of the issue and perhaps did it so quickly and didn't wait so that it wouldn't look so bad? (I mean, if she had done it after Nog was outed then no way could she have gotten away with it, but at that time...)

Does that make any sense? Basically I'm saying she's probably not a Wolf, and maybe a bit more likely Cobbler than Innocent.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Thinking back on the events of yesterday, at the time when Nessa sided with Nog and voted for me, there had already been some stiff resistance put up against him. Why would she not enter the debate at any point or await a resolution or anything but rather just swoop in with "I believe him" and vote?

In some games Wolves have been too eager to believe Seer claims because they want to look like they're on the right side. But in this case with the claim so hotly contested I don't think it works the same. Especially if she's a WW it doesn't work because she could've perhaps gained some credibility by siding against a perceived Nobbler, right? I don't think her move makes sense from a WW perspective, but perhaps it does if she's a Cobbler, as she would simply want to come down on the wrong side of the issue and perhaps did it so quickly and didn't wait so that it wouldn't look so bad? (I mean, if she had done it after Nog was outed then no way could she have gotten away with it, but at that time...)

Does that make any sense? Basically I'm saying she's probably not a Wolf, and maybe a bit more likely Cobbler than Innocent.

I was thinking it could also have been a rather clumsy wolf-move, though. She's not all that experienced.