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Old 03-11-2004, 04:18 PM   #1
Gil Galad
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The door of durin.

I did a search and it didn't turn up anything. I was wondering why the dwarves used elvish to open the door at Moria. I thought the had a bit of a feud going on?
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Old 03-11-2004, 05:01 PM   #2
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Well, the doors were made mostly by Narvi, an elf I believe (this may be wrong). Either way, Narvi was enlisted as a crafstmen by Durin III, but was a close friend of ol' Celebrimbor. I suppose that the dwarf/elf feud was just not as feudy at this time, since Durin must have associated with them slightly. Imean, remember that Celebrimbor of Hollin drew the exquisite designs on the doors, and he was most certainly and elf.

Actually, I believe this is the explanation for the fued (really more of a whacked theory). Think about this, ponder if you will, my explanation for why dwarves and elves hate each other so much.

Narvi, for the sake of art, crafted the West-door of Khazad-dum with elvish inscriptions. That inscription read, I believe...
Quote:
The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria. Speak, friend, and enter.
Now, that's fine and dandy. Nice concise description. But, one must note one thing. The dwarves did not like Khazad-dum, their beautiful home, being called something so derogatory as Black Pit, Moria. So, why did they let it happen? Simple: Narvi and Celebrimbor thought it would be a fun practical joke to play on the dwarves, permanently inscribing a disliked name on their front door right under their beards (they could only read Cirth, as I remember). When Durin found this out, he must've been rather put off, thus beginning the ageless feud between wee axe wielding beardies and pointy-eared folk.
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Old 03-11-2004, 05:30 PM   #3
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Okay, I get it now, Thanks Kransha.
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Old 03-12-2004, 02:06 AM   #4
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Narvi was a dwarf who made the gates ("I, Narvi, made them"). Celebrimbor merely "drew these signs", in reference to the elvish script.
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Old 03-12-2004, 08:00 AM   #5
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Hey, that explains why Narvi said that Celebrimbor "drew these signs". So, Narvi did not understand the signs? And Celebrimbor decided to play the joker and call the "Halls of the Dwarves" a "Dark Chasm"?

"Tell me, Legolas, why did I come on this Quest? Little did I know where the chief peril lay! Truly Elrond spoke, saying that we could not foresee what we might meet upon our road..." - Gimli the Dwarf.
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Old 03-12-2004, 01:14 PM   #6
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The feud beween the elves and dwarves began in the first age of the world. In short, lust for the silmarils caused the dwarves of Nogrod and King Thingol of Doriath to fall out and started a war between the two. Both sides blame the other and neither side ever forgets it.

Hollin and Moria was an exception, where the dwarves and elves were allies for the sake of trade and craftsmanship, I think.
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Old 03-14-2004, 08:51 AM   #7
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That ancient feud is actually never quite justified in the first place: Thingol had no claim of making Beren steal a Silmaril. He just wanted Beren to die trying, and got more than he bargained for. The Dwarves also had no claim over the Silmaril.

Nevertheless the friendship between Hollin and Khazad-dum is genuine, and not just for trade and craftmanship. When Sauron sacked Eregion for the Three Rings, and attacked Elrond's surviving forces, the Dwarves of Khazad-dum attacked Sauron's forces at the rear. (History of Galadriel and Celeborn, UT)

Still, it tickles to know that Celebrimbor poked fun at Narvi's expense...

Narvi: "My Lord Durin, the Western Gate is completed."
Durin: "Marvellous, what do these signs mean, though?"
Narvi: "Our friend Celebrimbor of Hollin drew them... they purportedly means 'Glorious halls'"
Durin: "Wonderful! Present him with that Mithril waistcoat our smiths prepared."
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Old 03-14-2004, 07:42 PM   #8
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The doors were written in elvish because the western door was the one mostly used by the elves of Hollin when the dwarves and elves were friendly. Also, I think most of the time, the door was open, as a point is made when the war of the elves and Sauron is described in I think the Silmarillion, it says specifically that the doors of Moria were shut, (I don't know the exact quote). This could mean that they were normally open, obviously being guarded though.
As to why the name Moria was on the door since it was a derogatory term meaning black pit which it wasn't during its height, Gandalf could have paraphrased it, using the more common term at the time, Moria instead of Dwarrowdelf. I don't think it was a joke by Celebrimbor, as I'm sure the dwarves could speak and read elvish, as they are said to be good with languages, and since they didn't teach Khuzdul to non-dwarves, they would have to have learned elvish in order to communicate.
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Old 03-15-2004, 06:41 AM   #9
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Quote:
Gandalf could have paraphrased it, using the more common term at the time, Moria instead of Dwarrowdelf.
If Gandalf have could read out the inscription on the door itself, why should he need to paraphrase it? He was detailed enough describe the fine and small inscribtions below the main headings.

Gee, I should suppose it is more of an oversight on Prof T's part. Moria is already a common name even among the dwarves. (The name was first mentioned in the Hobbit, by the way) Besides, the dwarves do not live forever like the elves, so they tend to forget feuds or at least what caused them in the first place.
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Old 03-16-2004, 07:19 PM   #10
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About the feud: The dwarves of Moria may have not been involved, or have been dwarves of Belegost. It was mainly the dwarves of Nogrod that were involved with the Silmaril incident.
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Old 03-26-2004, 08:29 PM   #11
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Sting

Actually, the feud started when Aule, one of the Valar, made the Dwarves without telling Iluvatar. Iluvatar says,"...and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice." His children are the Elves and Men. He never intended to make Dwarves. That is why they are the children of his adoption. Anyway, I think that is the main reason for the feud.
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Old 03-28-2004, 10:30 PM   #12
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Pipe Moria...

Since everyone else calls it Moria, why would the Dwarves resist. Perhaps they still call it Khazad-dûm when they talk amongst themselves...
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Old 04-09-2004, 09:52 PM   #13
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Shield

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund
Since everyone else calls it Moria, why would the Dwarves resist. Perhaps they still call it Khazad-dûm when they talk amongst themselves...
Well, I've always seen dwarves as stubborn minded, though that feeling may've came from another book that I was reading. So, if dwarves are stubborn, then logically, they would keep to calling Moria: Khazad-dûm. Though one must think, because everyone else always called it Moria, as it was by the dwarves in the Hobbit, then the dwarves, out of politeness, would've called it Moria.

I suppose that it would depend on the company that the dwarves were in. With some people, they would've used Khazad-dûm, while with others: Moria.

It would've depended on the dwarf.

But one wonders, if it was the Dwarven door, how come Celebrinbor didn't use Runes, instead of Tengwar... after all, it was a stone door, and have you ever tried to carve Tengwar into anything? It's not easy. However, the Runes are all straight lines. How come they didn't use Runes on the gate?

Sorry, just a random question that I hope adds to the topic, after all, it does indeed have to do with the Doors of Durin. (Pedo mellon a mino...)

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Old 04-13-2004, 03:19 PM   #14
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In answer to your question, Eowyn Skywalker: Because Celebrimbor was an elf, and so he would use elvish no matter how close a friend he was to any dwarf. And most likely no elf and dwarf were close at all until Legolas and Gimli. And elves were the only ones who knew the skill of writing the script in the 'moon-letters', I believe. Another answer to that question can be found in Voralphion's post:

Quote:
The doors were written in elvish because the western door was the one mostly used by the elves of Hollin when the dwarves and elves were friendly.
It could be that Moria was simply a mistake made by Tolkien. It must have been nearly impossible to keep up with an entire mythological history, including as small of details as the changing of names over time. But it could also have many other purposes. For one, Moria could always have been Moria, though the darkness of its name would simply be descriptive, and would not have to signify fear of it. Perhaps it was inscribed so to foreshadow later events, and because of these later events was adopted as the common name for it.
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