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Old 10-05-2017, 12:16 PM   #1
ArcusCalion
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Leaf Ambarkanta

While we wait for Findegil to finish his draft for the Of the Flight of the Noldor chapter, I decided to post some drafts for Volume III, since Fidegil has as better idea of the draft structure of Volume II.

This is the first draft of the work Ambarkanta.

Our basis text is that of "The Ambarkanta" given in HoME V. Wherever the text is different from HoME V, this is marked by an editing mark.

The markings are:
Amb-xx for tracking any and all changes.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source.


Quote:
Amb-01 {Ambarcanta}[Ambarcanta?]

Of the Fashion of the World

Rúmil

Amb-02 About all the World are the {Ilurambar}[Eärambar], or Walls of the World. They are as ice and glass and steel, being above all imagination of the Children of Earth cold, transparent, and hard. They cannot be seen, nor can they be passed, save by the Door of Night.
Within these walls the Earth is globed: above, below, and upon all sides is Vaiya, the Enfolding Ocean. But this is more like to sea below the Earth Amb-03 <editorial addition and is called Ekkaia,> and more like to air above the Earth. In Vaiya ......flow together and are confounded.
Ilmen is that air ...... , but Ilmen is breathed by the {Gods}[Valar], and purified by the passage of the luminaries; for in Ilmen Varda Amb-04 ordained the courses of the <editorial addition newer> stars, and later of the Moon and Sun.
From Vista there is no outlet nor escape save' for the Amb-05 {servants of Manwë}[Ainur], or for such as {he gives}[is given] powers like to {those of his people}[those of the Ainur], that can sustain themselves in Ilmen or even in the upper Vaiya ..... and of the light of the luminaries of heaven.
In the regions of Ulmo ..... Mountains of Valinor it is evening.
But days are otherwise in Valinor ...... mingling of Laurelin and {Silpion}[Telperion] long ago.
The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas. And not far thence, as has been said, are the Walls of the World; and over against the westernmost shore in the midst of Valinor is Ando Lómen the Door of Timeless Night that pierceth the Walls and Amb-06 opens upon the Void. For the World is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time. But none can pass the chasm and the belt of Vaiya and come to that Door, save the great Valar only. And they made that Door when {Melko}[Melkor] was overcome and put forth into the Outer Dark; and it is guarded by {Earendel}[Eärendil].
The Middle-earth lies ..... and the ice reached out into {Vaiya}[Ekkaia], and even unto the Walls of the World.
Now it is said that the Valar coming .... hallowed it, and set it in the {Western Sea}[Great Lake] and abode upon it, ..... As is told they desired to make lamps, Amb-07 {and Melko offered to devise a new substance of great strength and beauty to be their pillars.} And {he}[they] set up these great pillars north and south of the Earth's middle yet nearer to it than the chasm; and the {Gods}[Valar] placed lamps upon them and the Earth had light for a while.
Amb-08 But the pillars were made with deceit, being wrought of ice; and they melted, and the lamps fell in ruin, and their light was spilled. But the melting of the ice made two small inland seas, north and south of the middle of the Earth, and there was a northern land and a middle land and a southern land. ....... but these straits are filled with ice.
For their further protection the Valar ..... from the shores of Midd1e-earth.
And the thrusting aside of the land ..... But {Melko}[Melkor] fortified the North and built there the Northern Towers, which are also called the Iron Mountains, and they look southward. Amb-09 <LQ 1 {But the}[And other] mountains were the Hithaeglir, the Towers of Mist upon the borders of Eriador; yet they were {taller}[tall] and {more} terrible in those days, and they were reared by Melkor to hinder the riding of Oromë.> And in the middle ...... beside the waters of {Helkar}[Helcar].
But the symmetry of the ancient Earth was changed and broken in the first Battle of the {Gods}[Valar], when Valinor went out against Utumno, which was {Melko’s}[Melkor’s] stronghold, and {Melko}[Melkor] was {chained}[captured]. Then the sea of {Helkar}[Helcar] (which was the Amb-10 <editorial addition ancient place of the> northern lamp) became an inland sea or great lake, but the sea of Ringil (which was the Amb-11 <editorial addition ancient place of the> southern lamp) became a great sea flowing north-eastward and joining by straits both the Western and Eastern Seas.
And the Earth was again ...... lands and waters of old has perished.

Amb-01: This is a debatable change, but I changed k > c per Tolkien's 3rd Age Quenya rules, as this is Bilbo's translations.
Amb-02: This passage was written when the concept of "Ea" did not exist. Arda was simply globed amid the Void, and thus the Door of Night and the Walls of the World were visible from Valinor. Tolkien never successfully and completely revised his works to fit with the "Ea" conception, and so Nienna's house "looks outward from the walls of the world" and the stars follow the moon into the chasm of Ilmen, etc. However, since we are using the Flat Earth version, the Ambarkanta is an important document, much like the Valaquenta, and useful to explain the layout of the complex cosmology. We could simply update the Ilurambar >Earambar and leave it, bc as I seeit, the only lore difficulty here with the wording is the Door of Night. Where is this located? does it open onto Ea? or Kuma?
Amb-03: I know this is a risky addition, but my reasoning is that Ekkaia is only used to denote the sea, whereas Vaiya is used to denote the atmospheric sphere of air. THis can be debated, however.
Amb-04: This is an addition because in the old conception, there was no Ea, and the two starmakings of Varda were less distinct in concept.
Amb-05: In the later conception, the Valar and Maiar were bound within Ea, not Arda, and so Manwe's ability to go so high up was unique, but this is no longer the case.
Amb-06: This entire paragraph is based on the old conception of the Door of Night and the Walls of the World: what does the door open onto? In MT, Tolkien notes that Melkor was put out into the space of Ea, which the Numenoreans and even the Elves often confused with the Void about Ea. Do we accept this as an internal universe error? or update it somehow to fit the later idea?
Amb-07: This concept was a brief idea that Melkor made the lamps out of ice, but this was rejected, and we must update this.
Amb-08: The formation of the inland seas makes sense when the laps were ice, but now it seems odd. I am unsure how to change this to fit the later idea.
Amb-09: This may not be required, but since it is talking about the formation of the major mountain ranges of the world, the Hithaeglir were not in the old conception, but had they been , they would certainly have been mentioned. I therefore added the LQ description of their making.
Amb-10: This is per the change of the names of the lamps, but not the seas.
Amb-11: same as 10.
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Old 11-19-2017, 09:00 AM   #2
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When I saw that your draft included the Ambarkanta as a single chapter, I thought for a time if it was possible. I decided not to include in spite of its importance because it was very problematic to make coherent with the rest. I had included some parts within the whole text.
Now rethinking, I offer an edited version. If we want include as a text per se, this is my proposal.
Sorry for the style of work. Of course, the editorial additions can be improved. I used the text of your draft.

Ambacanta

Composed byRúmil of Tirion in the Elder Days. Written here after the Tale Pengolodh the Wise told to the Wise of Númenor
Of the Fashion of the World
Amb-02 About all the World are the {Ilurambar}[Eärambar], or Walls of the World. They are as ice and glass and steel, being above all imagination of the Children of Earth cold, transparent, and hard. They cannot be seen, nor can they be passed Amb-02.1now, save by the Door of Night.
Within these walls the Earth is globed: above, below, and upon all sides is Vaiya, the Enfolding Ocean. But this is more like to sea below the Earth Amb-03 <editorial additon and is called Ekkaia,> and more like to air above the Earth. In Vaiya below the Earth dwells Ulmo. Above the Earth lies the Air, which is called Vista, and sustains birds and clouds. Therefore, it is called above Fanyamar, or Cloudhome; and below Aiwenórë or Bird-land. But this air lies only upon Middle-earth and the Inner Seas, and its proper bounds are the Mountains of Valinor in the West and the Walls of the Sun in the East. Therefore, clouds come seldom in Valinor, and the mortal birds pass not beyond the peaks of its mountains. But in the North and South, where there is most cold and darkness and Middle-earth extends nigh to the Walls of the World, Vaiya and Vista and Ilmen flow together and are confounded.
Ilmen is that air that is clear and pure being pervaded by light though it gives no light. Ilmen lies above Vista, and is not great in depth, but is deepest in the West and East, and least in the North and South. In Valinor the air is Ilmen, but Vista flows in at times especially in Elvenhome, part of which is at the eastern feet of the Mountains; and if Valinor m darkened and this air is not cleansed by the light of the Blessed Realm, it takes the form of shadows and grey mists. But Ilmen and Vista will mingle being of like nature, but Ilmen is breathed by the {Gods}[Valar], and purified by the passage of the luminaries; for in Ilmen Varda Amb-04 ordained the courses of the <editorial additon newer> stars, and later of the Moon and Sun.

From Vista there is no outlet nor escape save' for the Amb-05 {servants of Manwë}[Ainur], or for such as {he gives}[is given] powers like to {those of his people}[those of the Ainur], that can sustain themselves in Ilmen or even in the upper Vaiya, which is very thin and cold. From Vista one may descend upon the Earth. From Ilmen one may descend into Valinor. Now the land of Valinor extends almost to Vaiya, which is most narrow in the West and East of the World, but deepest in the North and South. The Western shores of Valinor are therefore not far from the Walls of the World. Yet there is a chasm which sunders Valinor from Vaiya, and it is filled with Ilmen, and by this way one may come from Ilmen above the earth to the lower regions, and to the Earthroots, and the caves and grottoes that are at the foundations of the lands and seas. There is Ulmo’s abiding-place. Thence are derived the waters of Middle-earth. For these waters are compounded of Ilmen and Vaiya and Ambar (which is Earth), since Ulmo blends Ilmen and Vaiya and sends them up through the veins of the World to cleanse and refresh the seas and rivers, the lakes and the fountains of Earth. And running water thus possesses the memory of the deeps and the heights, and holds somewhat of the wisdom and music of Ulmo, and of the light of the luminaries of heaven.
In the regions of Ulmo the stars are sometimes hidden, and there the Moon often wanders and is not seen from Middle-earth. But the Sun does not tarry there. She passes under the earth in haste, lest night be prolonged and evil strengthened; and she is drawn through the nether Vaiya by the servants of Ulmo, and it is warmed and filled with life. Thus days are measured by the courses of the Sun, which sails from East to West through the lower Ilmen, blotting out the stars; and she passes over the midst of Middle-earth and halts not, and she bends her course northward or southward, not waywardly but in due procession and season. And when she rises above the Walls of the Sun it is Dawn, and when she sinks behind the Mountains of Valinor it is evening.

But days are otherwise in Valinor than in Middle-earth. For there the time of greatest light is Evening. Then the Sun comes down and rests for a while in the Blessed Land, lying upon the bosom of Vaiya. And when she sinks into Vaiya it is made hot and glows with rose-colored fire, and this for a long while illumines that land. But as she passes toward the East the glow fades, and Valinor is robbed of light, and is lit only with stars; and the {Gods}[Valar] mourn then most for the death of Laurelin. At dawn the dark is deep in Valinor, and the shadows of their mountains lie heavy on the mansions of the Gods. But the Moon does not tarry in Valinor, and passeth swiftly o’er it to plunge in the chasm of Ilmen, [Footnote to the text: Ilmen-assa] for he pursues ever after the Sun, and overtakes her seldom, and then is consumed and darkened in her flame. But it happens at times that he comes above Valinor ere the Sun has left it, and then he descends and meets his beloved, and Valinor is filled with mingled light as of silver and gold; and the {Gods}[Valar] smile remembering the mingling of Laurelin and {Silpion}[Telperion] long ago.

The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas. And not far thence, as has been said, are the Walls of the World; and over against the westernmost shore in the midst of Valinor is Ando Lómen the Door of Timeless Night that pierceth the Walls and Amb-06 opens upon the Void. For the World is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Amb-06.1 Eldest Darkness of Eä{without form or time}. But none can pass the chasm and the belt of Vaiya and come to that Door, save the great Valar only. And they made that Door Amb-06.2 {when Melko}[in the time Melkor] was overcome and put forth into the Outer Dark; and it is guarded by {Earendel}[Eärendil].

The Middle-earth lies amidst the World, and is made of land and water; and its surface is the center of the world from the confines of the upper Vaiya to the confines of the nether. Of old its fashion was thus. It was highest in the middle, and fell away on either side into vast valleys, but rose again in the East and West and again fell away to the chasm at its edges. And the two valleys were filled with the primeval water, and the shores of these ancient seas were in the West the western highlands and the edge of the great land, and in the East the eastern highlands and the edge of the great land upon the other side. But at the North and South it did not fall away, and one could go by land from the uttermost South and the chasm of Ilmen to the uttermost North and the chasm of Ilmen. The ancient seas lay therefore, in troughs, and their waters spilled not to the East or to the West; but they had no shores either at the North or at the South, and they spilled into the chasm, and them waterfalls became ice and bridges of ice because of the cold; so that the chasm of Ilmen was here closed and bridged, and the ice reached out into {Vaiya}[Ekkaia], and even unto the Walls of the World.

Now it is said that the Valar coming into the World descended first upon Middle-earth at its center, save {Melko}[Melkor] who descended in the furthest North. Amb-07 {But the Valar took a portion of land and made an island and hallowed it, and set it in the {Western Sea}[Great Lake] and abode upon it, while they were busied in the exploration and first ordering of the World. As is told they desired to make lamps, and Melko offered to devise a new substance of great strength and beauty to be their pillars.} And {he}[they] set up {these} great pillars north and south of the Earth's middle yet nearer to it than the chasm; and the {Gods}[Valar] placed lamps upon them and the Earth had light for a while. Amb-07.1 (Moved from above) But the Valar took a portion of land and made an island and hallowed it, and set it in the {Western Sea}[Great Lake] and abode upon it, while they were busied in the exploration and first ordering of the World.

Amb-08 But the pillars {were made with deceit, being wrought of ice; and they melted, and the lamps fell in ruin, and their light was spilled. But the melting of the ice} were Amb-08.1 casted down by Melkor and the tumult made two small inland seas, north and south of the middle of the Earth, and there was a northern land and a middle land and a southern land. Then the Valar removed into the West and forsook the island; and upon the highland at the western side of the West Sea they piled great mountains, and behind them made the land of Valinor. But the mountains of Valinor curve backward, and Valinor is broadest in the middle of Earth, where the mountains march beside the sea; and at the north and south the mountains come even to the chasm. There are those two regions of the Western Land which are not of Middle-earth and are yet outside the mountains: they are dark and empty. That to the North is {Eruman}[Araman], and that to the South is {Arvalin}[Avathar]; and there is only a narrow strait between them and the corners of the Middle-earth, but these straits are filled with ice.

For their further protection the Valar thrust away Middle-earth at the center and crowded it eastward, so that it was bended, and the great sea of the West is very wide in the middle, the widest of all waters of the Earth. The shape of the Earth in the East was much like that in the West, save for the narrowing of the Eastern Sea, and the thrusting of the land thither. And beyond the Eastern Sea lies the Eastern Land, of which we know little, and call it the Land of the Sun; and it has mountains, less great than those of Valinor, yet very great, which are the Walls of the Sun. By reason of the falling of the land these mountains Amb-08.2{cannot} could not be descried, save by highflying birds, across the seas which divide them from the shores of Midd1e-earth.
And the thrusting aside of the land caused also mountains to appear in four ranges, two in the Northland, and two in the Southland; and those in the North were the Blue Mountains in the West side, and the Red Mountains in the East side; and in the South were the Grey Mountains and the Yellow. But {Melko}[Melkor] fortified the North and built there the Northern Towers, which are also called the Iron Mountains, and they look southward. Amb-09 <LQ 1 {But the}[And other] mountains were the Hithaeglir, the Towers of Mist upon the borders of Eriador; yet they were {taller}[tall] and {more} terrible in those days, and they were reared by Melkor to hinder the riding of Oromë.> And in the middle land there were the Mountains of the Wind, for a wind blew strongly there coming from the East before the Sun; and Hildórien the land where Men first awoke lay between these mountains and the Eastern Sea. But {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen] where Oromë found the Elves is to the North beside the waters of {Helkar}[Helcar].

But the symmetry of the ancient Earth was changed and broken Amb-09.1 {in the first Battle of the {Gods}[Valar],} when Valinor went out against Utumno, which was {Melko}[Melkor]’s stronghold, and {Melko}[Melkor] was {chained}[captured]. Then the sea of {Helkar}[Helcar] (which was the Amb-10 <editorial addition ancient place of the> northern lamp) became an inland sea or great lake, but the sea of {Ringil} Ormal (which was the Amb-11 <editorial addition ancient place of the> southern lamp) became a great sea flowing north-eastward and joining by straits both the Western and Eastern Seas. And the Earth was again broken in Amb-11.1{the second battle} the War of Wrath, when {Melko}[Melkor] was again overthrown, and it has changed ever in the wearing and passing of many ages.'
But the greatest. change took place, when the First Design was destroyed, and the Earth was rounded, and severed from Valinor. This befell in the days of the assault of the Númenóreans upon the land of the {Gods}[Valar], as is told in the Histories. And since that time the world has forgotten the things that were before, and the names and the memory of the lands and waters of old has perished.


Amb-02.1now. There are many problems in the cosmogony left by the professor. This is a humble way of fix them. Why Melkor could pass above the Walls is they are impenetrable? In my opinion we can add “now” because In the beginning of time could be passed, and after could not (except by the Door of Night)
Amb-06.1 Eldest Darkness of Eä {without form or time}. As in the beginning of OVatTT. The Void is another matter unexplained. I consider two types of Void that must be explained (in my case in the list of names) The Void out of Eä, and the Void of Eä as the Outer Space out of Arda. But is a matter very difficult even for C. Tolkien. The same explanation would be for the name Eärambar.
Amb-06.2 {when Melko}[in the time Melkor] Because is told Vingilot was set there before the War of wrath.
Amb-07 and 7.1 per order of history.
Amb-08.1 casted down by Melkor and the tumult per update history.
Amb-08.2{cannot} could not Because is told is akallabeth that the Númenóreans saw the Gates of Morning from their ships. The Gates of Morning is supposed that were abandoned but was included in the last version of Akallabeth. They must be explained perhaps as an abstraction of the rising Sun? this is how I explained in my list of names.
Amb-09.1 {in the first Battle of the {Gods}[Valar],} it was not the first battle.
Amb-10 <editorial addition ancient place of the> northern lamp) became an inland sea or great lake, but the sea of {Ringil} Ormal this is very daring but is the only way I think can we maintain the south inland sea. The Inland Seas could be formed by the tumult and not only with the ice of the ancient pillars (in my opinion).
Amb-11.1{the second battle} the War of Wrath, I think is better.
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:10 PM   #3
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Giving this thread a bump so it's easier to find.
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:15 PM   #4
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I am not so sure that this chapter is really easy. We have to solve the cosmological riddles that Tolkien left us, to get it done. So let us see what we can do.

For me gondowe’s addition of “now” does not help. In all version of the Legendarium the Ainur after they entered into Eä were bound to stay within until the end. Thus Eärambar must be unpassable (probably until the Valar build the Door of Night). Which means that the flight of Melkor after Tulkas came to the help of the Valar can only be out of Arda not out of Eä. Since we are dealing with a flat earth version, we have to carefull with what we use from MT, But the following sentences makes much sens:
Quote:
But as is elsewhere written Melkor was at that time defeated with the aid of Tulkas (who was not among those who began the building of Eä) and driven out again into the Void that lay about Arda.
But if we follow the diagrams to the stroke, where is than the space for Melkors abiding after his flight?
Quote:
The Stars, therefore, in general will be other and remoter parts of the Great Tale of Eä, which do not concern the Valar of Arda. Though, even if not explicitly, it will be an underlying assumption that the Kingdom of Arda is of central importance, selected amid all the immeasurable vast of Eä as the scene for the main drama of the conflict of Melkor with Ilúvatar, and the Children of Eru. Melkor is the supreme spirit of Pride and Revolt, not just the chief Vala of the Earth, who has turned to evil.
Varda, therefore, as one of the great Valar of Arda, cannot be said to have 'kindled' the stars, as an original subcreative act – not at least the stars in general. … It was after the First Battle[ in which Tulkas drove Melkor out of Arda] that Varda set certain stars as ominous signs for the dwellers in Arda to see.
Even Tolkien wrote this when he was re-creating his legendarium as round earth version, we might take this by necessity. How would we imaginge the catalysem at the Fall of Númenor, that clearly should lead to the real well know cosmos, if before that Eä would be exactly as drawn in diagram I and II?
So what? Either:
A) What ‘Ambarcanta’ and the diagrams describe is only Arda, or
B) Ilmen and Vaiya must be much greater then described, or
C) both.
Any how some points must be changed:
- The Ice north and south can for sure not reach out to the Wall of night.
- Vista cannot be a barrier for the Ainur. Since other wise how could Melkor leave the area described?
- The chasm of Ilmen is difficult any how, as we have the later Quenta telling us on the one hand that at the west side of Valinor is a silent shore and that the chasm is beyond Ekkaia. On the other hand we have in the Ambrakanta:
Quote:
The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas.
I have for the moment no conclusion for this issue.
- I agree with gondowe that the lakes can be brought into being by the fall of the pillars of the Lamps even so they were in our version most probably not made of ice.

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Old 02-14-2019, 09:22 PM   #5
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One general question before getting into specifics. Have we considered including some of Tolkien's maps into the text? This chapter in particular is very hard to follow without the maps published in HoME IV.

This chapter is indeed rather tricky. It seems there are two extreme approaches: try to make everything completely consistent or allow contradictions (which would mostly be due to the limited knowledge of the original authors -- as Arcus mentioned, Tolkien himself expressed this idea in Myths Transformed). I think we should try to take a middle approach: make the text consistent when it is clear what Tolkien's later conception is and the change to the text is minor. We should avoiding doing major violence to the text.

I agree that Gondowe's "now" does not help. If anything, it just adds more questions: what exactly changed? Melkor escaping out of Arda and not out of Ea makes the most sense. But it raises the question of what the Walls of the World/Walls of Night enclose: Arda or all of Ea? I have not gotten to reviewing the main text of the Silmarillion yet: in our text does Melkor return "over the Walls of the Night" in our text as it is in the published Silmarillion? According to the encyclopedia of Arda, Christopher offers the suggestion of there being two walls in HoME 10 (I cannot find the passage it is referring to, I will continue looking): http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/w/wallsoftheworld.html. If we keep the fact that Melkor returned to Arda "over the Walls of the Night," the idea of two walls is the only thing that makes sense. When the Door of Night is created and Melkor is expelled, he is sent outside of the outer walls which enclose Ea. I don't think it's a good idea to try to change the text to reflect the idea of two sets of walls; instead, we should leave the text as is and chalk it up to the in-universe author having imperfect knowledge.

Other specific points:

I agree with Gondowe and Fin that the fall of the lamps is what causes the creation of the lakes.

Gondowe brought up the "Gates of Morning" in the Akallabeth. The idea of these gates seem like they would cause problems with the idea that the only way out of the Walls of the World is through the Door of Night. I don't know whether we should simply keep the "Gates of Morning" in the Akallabeth or remove it.

There is another question of how the Valar entered into Ea in the first place if the Walls are impenetrable. I think they received the assistance of Eru in this, but upon entering Ea they were bound to it. I do not have any evidence in the text itself, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Fin's concerns about whether the Ambarkanta describes Arda or all of Ea and how this conception could possibly turn into our modern cosmos are legitimate concerns. I think Tolkien's idea of the in-universe author of the Ambarkanta having imperfect knowledge is the best path forward.

One last thing, it looks like Arcus made one change but forgot to post it on the forum. It is similar to what Gondowe proposed about the fall of the lamps creating the seas:

Quote:
Amb-08 But [Melkor assailed] the pillars {were made with deceit, being wrought of ice; and they melted}, and the lamps fell in ruin, and their light was spilled. But the Amb-08.5 {melting of the ice}[ruin of the lamps] made two small inland seas
I like this change.

Last edited by gandalf85; 02-14-2019 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 02-15-2019, 11:22 AM   #6
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Let me respond to each of you separately

Fin

I agree that gondowe's "now" does not help, and I agree with the summary of the issue you've laid out. To me it seems that A) is our best option, since to make the interior spaces larger would be immensely difficult from a logical standpoint and from a narrative one. I think our best bet is to assume that the entire work treats mostly with Arda, since that, to me, is the only way that the cosmology makes sense.

About ur points:
- If we go with A) then the ice can be said to reach out to the walls of the world, which is supposed to be an example of the Helcaraxe.
- Did you mean Vilya? In this case I agree, since Melkor passes through it without the aid of Manwe.
- The chasm of Ilmen is also said to be between the shores of Valinor and the sea of Ekkaia in the chapter Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor when it describes the Moon sailing over Valinor and plunging into the chasm of Ilmen and chasing the stars beneath the world. But I agree it is an odd concept and a difficult one to understand.
- I agree now about the lakes, and as gandalf said I added in that change in keeping with this idea.

gandalf

Our text does indeed say this, and it is part and parcel with these comments we need to address. It is indeed possible that the Walls of Night are different from the Walls of the World, but I do not think so. In any case this does not solve the issue. Melkor must be able to pass through the Walls of Night at will, but when he is thrust out of the Doors of Night (supposedly in the Walls of the World) he cannot return. This would lend one to think thus: 1) the walls of the world and the walls of night are different. 2) the walls of night enclose Arda while the walls of the world enclose Ea. 3) Melkor was thus thrust out of Ea which is why he cannot return. However, Tolkien explicitly says this is impossible, since no being can leave Ea until the End, as it is part and parcel with their nature that they are bound to Creation, except Men, who are strange. Therefore our neat vision is wrecked. We must seek other solutions:

1) This was a special case of Eru allowing it for the good of Arda
- This would allow the neatest answer, since we would need to make no changes to the text, and would simply (as gandalf suggests) allow the reader to interpret the existence of two walls and chalk any confusion up to in-universe author imperfection. However, this is against the goals of the project. The whole project was designed to answer the question "What is canon?" therefore, leaving things that are wrong and chalking it up to in-universe error goes against the project's goals. That being said, the idea that Eru gave some special dispensation is possible, and we cannot outright discount it.
2) The two walls are different, and the building of the Door of Night is significant because it prevents reentry through the Wall of Night (around Arda), not because it opens through an impassable wall.
- This one would solve the issue of the Valar passing over/through the Walls of Night to enter Arda. If we make them just enclose Arda, then the Valar can pass through them no problem, with the Walls of the World around Ea being the impassable ones. We can thus change every reference to the Walls of the World relating to Valinor or the distance from the land of Arda to the Walls of Night. The Door of Night could be significant because it prevents Melkor's reentry, not because it opens on the Void outside of Ea. The issue with this approach is that it is invented, but to be honest, the idea of there being two walls is in itself invented, and Tolkien must forgive us some clever invention to make this cosmology work.

As for the other points:
- Agreed with Fin about gondowe's change
- I think we must leave them in because the Akallabeth is a very late source compared to this, so to remove it from there is something serious. I think we must try to include them if possible.
- I think you are right in that Eru allowed them to enter Ea for the first time. We do not need to specify this.
- If we take the Ambarcanta to only describe Arda, then it does not make the transition to our cosmology impossible. Once Valinor is removed 'into the realm of hidden things,' we can assume that Vaiya went with it. Then Ilmen becomes open to the spaces of Ea, enclosed within the Walls of Night (preventing Melkor from returning to Arda). But this allows the Sun and Moon to expand into Ea as well as other heavenly bodies which might have been in Ilmen previously. Ilmen then simly becomes our upper atmosphere. It makes enough sense that it shouldn't cause too much concern.
- Thank you for posting this change, it slipped my mind!
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Old 02-15-2019, 06:25 PM   #7
Findegil
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I think we should update completely how we want to update this chapter.
Quote:
Amb-01{Ambrakanta}[Ambracanta]
Of the Fashion of the World
Rúmil
Amb-02 About all the World are the {Ilurambar}[Eärambar], or Walls of the World. They are as ice and glass and steel, being above all imagination of the Children of Earth cold, transparent, and hard. They cannot be seen, nor can they be passed, save by the Door of Night.
Amb-02.2<MT, Text II The Stars{, therefore,} in general {will be}are other and remoter parts of the Great Tale of Eä, which do not concern the Valar of Arda. Though{, even if not explicitly, it will be an underlying assumption that} the Kingdom of Arda is of central importance, selected amid all the immeasurable vast of Eä as the scene for the main drama of the conflict of Melkor with Ilúvatar, and the Children of Eru. Melkor is the supreme spirit of Pride and Revolt, not just the chief Vala of the Earth, who has turned to evil.>
Amb-02.3<Ainulindalë{§23 So began their great labours in}In these wastes unmeasured and unexplored{, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time} and in the midst of the vast halls of {the }Eä there {came to be that hour and }lay that place where was {made }the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar. >Amb-02.4 Within {these}the walls[ of Night] the Earth is globed: above, below, and upon all sides is Vaiya, the Enfolding Ocean. But this is more like to sea below the Earth Amb-03 <editorial additon and is called Ekkaia,> and more like to air above the Earth. In Vaiya below the Earth dwells Ulmo. … But in the North and South, where there is most cold and darkness and Middle-earth extends nigh to the Walls of Amb-03.5{the World}[Night], Vaiya and Vista and Ilmen flow together and are confounded.
Ilmen is that air that is clear and pure being pervaded by light though it gives no light. … for in Ilmen Varda Amb-04 ordained the courses of the <editorial additon newer> stars, and later of the Moon and Sun.
From Vista there is no outlet nor escape save for the Amb-05 {servants of Manwë}[Ainur], or for such as {he gives}[is given] powers like to {those of his people}[those of the Ainur], that can sustain themselves in Ilmen or even in the upper Vaiya, which is very thin and cold. … The Western shores of Valinor are therefore not far from the Walls of Amb-05.5{the World}[Night]. Yet there is a chasm which sunders Valinor from Vaiya, and it is filled with Ilmen, … and of the light of the luminaries of heaven.
In the regions of Ulmo the stars are sometimes hidden, … and when she sinks behind the Mountains of Valinor it is evening.
But days are otherwise in Valinor than in Middle-earth. … and the {Gods}[Valar] smile remembering the mingling of Laurelin and {Silpion}[Telperion] long ago.

The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas. And not far thence, as has been said, are the Walls of the World; and over against the westernmost shore in the midst of Valinor is Ando Lómen the Door of Timeless Night that pierceth the Walls and Amb-06 opens upon the Void. For the World is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time. But none can pass the chasm and the belt of Vaiya and come to that Door, save the great Valar only. And they made that Door Amb-06.2{when Melko}[in the time Melkor] was overcome and put forth into the Outer Dark; and it is guarded by {Earendel}[Eärendil].

The Middle-earth lies amidst the World, … and they spilled into the chasm, and them waterfalls became ice and bridges of ice because of the cold; so that the chasm of Ilmen was here closed and bridged, and the ice reached out into {Vaiya}[Ekkaia], and even unto the Walls of Amb-06.5{the World}[Night].

Now it is said that the Valar coming into the World descended first upon Middle-earth at its center, save {Melko}[Melkor] who descended in the furthest North. Amb-07{But the Valar took a portion of land and made an island and hallowed it, and set it in the Western Sea and abode upon it, while they were busied in the exploration and first ordering of the World. As is told they desired to make lamps, and Melko offered to devise a new substance of great strength and beauty to be their pillars.} And {he}they set up {these }great pillars north and south of the Earth's middle yet nearer to it than the chasm; and the {Gods}[Valar] placed lamps upon them and the Earth had light for a while. Amb-07.1b <Moved from above But the Valar took a portion of land and made an island and hallowed it, and set it in {the Western Sea}[a Great Lake] and abode upon it, while they were busied in the exploration and first ordering of the World.>

Amb-08b But <editorial addition Melkor assailed> the pillars{ were made with deceit, being wrought of ice; and they melted}, and the lamps fell in ruin, and their light was spilled. But the Amb-08.5b{melting of the ice}[fall of the pillars of the Lamps] made two small inland seas, north and south of the middle of the Earth, and there was a northern land and a middle land and a southern land. … That to the North is {Eruman}[Araman], and that to the South is {Arvalin}[Avathar]; and there is only a narrow strait between them and the corners of the Middle-earth, but these straits are filled with ice.
For their further protection the Valar thrust away Middle-earth at the center and crowded it eastward, … across the seas which divide them from the shores of Middle-earth.
And the thrusting aside of the land caused also mountains to appear in four ranges, … and they look southward. Amb-09 <LQ 1 {But the}[And other] mountains were the Hithaeglir, the Towers of Mist upon the borders of Eriador; yet they were {taller}[tall] and {more} terrible in those days, and they were reared by Melkor to hinder the riding of Oromë.> And in the middle land there were the Mountains of the Wind, … But {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen] where Oromë found the Elves is to the North beside the waters of {Helkar}[Helcar].
But the symmetry of the ancient Earth was changed and broken in the Amb-09.1b{first Battle of the Gods,}[War of the Powers] when Valinor went out against Utumno, which was {Melko}[Melkor]’s stronghold, and {Melko}[Melkor] was {chained}[captured]. Then the sea of {Helkar}[Helcar] (which was the Amb-10 <editorial addition ancient place of the> northern lamp) became an inland sea or great lake, but the sea of Ringil (which was the Amb-11 <editorial addition ancient place of the> southern lamp) became a great sea flowing north-eastward and joining by straits both the Western and Eastern Seas.
And the Earth was again broken in Amb-11.1{the second battle}[the War of Wrath], when {Melko}[Melkor] was again overthrown, and it has changed ever in the wearing and passing of many ages. But the greatest change took place, when the First Design was destroyed, and the Earth was rounded, and severed from Valinor. This befell in the days of the assault of the Númenóreans upon the land of the {Gods}[Valar], as is told in the Histories. And since that time the world has forgotten the things that were before, and the names and the memory of the lands and waters of old has perished.
Amb-01: I agree to these up date.

Amb-02: When we change {Ilurambar}[Eärambar] (as we should) then we talk here about the outer fence of Eä. And that we should make clear.

Amb-02.1: This was the addition of ‘now’ that gondowe suggested, but we all found not adequate.

Amb-02.2 to Amb-02.4: I adde here a parts from MT, Text II and Ainulindalë and edited them to fit the circumference. Then I change the reference from the Walls of the World to the Walls of Night. I think that we should follow here Christopher Tolkien’s suggestion of two walls which is found in his discussion The Annals of Aman.

Amb-03: I agree to this addition.

Amb-03.5, Amb-05.5 & Amb-06.5: Again this must be the Wall of Night.

Amb-04: This is a good idea, how to deal with the different stars.

Amb-05: I again agree to this change.

Amb-06: Mybe we should think about the Door of Night a little bit less in physical sense. Anyhow if it opens to the Void outside Eä then it must be a transcending thing rather then a physical door. But such an opening into another ‘dimension of being’ might be anywhere (since the Void has anyhow nothing corresponding to the dimensions of our space). So the door might have a kind of double function: opened in the one ‘way’ it led out of Arda, but open in another ‘way’ know only to the great Valar that made the Door it will led out of time and space into the Void out side Eä. At least in that way we could argue. On the other hand we have this passage from MT: “We read that he[Morgoth] was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately[footnote to the text Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Ëa, with the conception of vast spaces within Ëa, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System).] to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.“ Thus the Door might simply lead out of Arda and as Morgoth left by his own choice a special protection against he return might simply not be necessary for a very long time (until Dagor Dagorath).

Amb-06.2: I agree to this change suggested by gondowe.

Amb-07 & Amb-07.1b: As the sequence change in the history, we should chang it here as well, as gondowe suggested. In addition I think we should change {the Western Sea}[a Great Lake] (using the unspecific articel).

Amb-08b & Amb-08.5b: ArcusCalion edition looks simpler to me, but I think we should be more specific what caused the building or sees.

Amb-09: I think we all agree to the addition of the Hithaeglir.

Amb-09.1b & Amb-11.1b: As these Battles are named in the later stages of the legendarium we should us these names here.

Amb-10 & Amb-11: I would very much like to have a smother editings for these changes, but I couldn’t find them for the time being.

Diagrams and Maps: Yes, if we can manage we will include them.

Respectfully
Findegil

Last edited by Findegil; 02-15-2019 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 02-15-2019, 08:49 PM   #8
ArcusCalion
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Fin, I think this solves nearly all of our problems! Marvelously done!

Amb-02: Agreed as well to the update, but perhaps we should change "About all the World" to "About all Eä" See below.

Amb-02.2-2.4: Agreed. Really good additions and editing.

Amb-3.5/5.5/6.5: Agreed.

Amb-06: I think since the Professor explicitly said he was most likely not thrust out of the universe entirely, we must accept his footnote that this was an inaccurate conflation of the Voids in Ea with the Void outside Ea. Therefore, I propose this editing:
Quote:
The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas. And not far thence, as has been said, are the Amb-06bWalls of {the World}Night; and over against the westernmost shore in the midst of Valinor is Ando Lómen the Door of Timeless Night that pierceth the Walls and opens upon Amb-06.1the Voids of Eä. {For the World}But Eä is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time. But none can pass the chasm and the belt of Vaiya and come to that Door, save the great Valar only. And they made that Door when {Melko}[Melkor] was overcome and put forth into the Outer Dark; and it is guarded by {Earendel}[Eärendil].
This way we make it that the door was in the Walls of Night, and opens onto Ea, per Tolkien's own note. We do not need to specify that he cannot return, because Earendil's guarding of the door already implies that. I think this solves our issue well.

Amb-06.2: I am unsure why this change is necessary to be honest. I don't see the difference in what is said.

Amb-07/07.1b: Agreed

Amb-09.1/11.1: Agreed

Diagrams and Maps: We can include them, although in an ideal world we would edit them, but that lies outside the scope of the project.

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 02-15-2019 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 02-16-2019, 02:58 PM   #9
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Amb-02.2 and Amb-02.3 are great additions which definitely clear things up! Well done Fin!

To markings I do not comment on, I agree to Fin's construction.

Amb-02 and Amb-06 I am OK with this, but we need to be careful. Are we using "The World" as a synonym for Ea? After all, we translate Eärambar (literally "walls of Ea") as Walls of the World. Later we say things like "Now the land of Valinor extends almost to Vaiya, which is most narrow in the West and East of the World, but deepest in the North and South." and "...Ulmo blends Ilmen and Vaiya and sends them up through the veins of the World to cleanse and refresh the seas and rivers, the lakes and the fountains of Earth." To me it seems clear in these sentences that "the World" is referring to Arda and not Ea. Later we say "The Middle-earth lies amidst the World, and is made of land and water; and its surface is the center of the world..." Are we making a distinction between capitalized "World" and lower-case "world"? I also think we have a problem with Melkor returning "over the Walls of Night" in the main narrative if here we state the Door of Night was created to thrust Melkor out into Ea. If Earendil is guarding the Door of Night, why doesn't Melkor simply return "over the Walls of Night" like he did before? Also, are we going to keep the reference to the Gates of Morning in the Akallabeth and not refer to them here? If so, are we supposing these Gates are in the Wall of Night?

Amb-06.2 I do not understand the reason for this change either.

Amb-08.5b For some reason "the fall of the pillars of the lamps" does not sound Tolkienian to me. I think "run of the lamps" is fine.

Diagrams and maps I agree that editing them is outside the scope of the project, although that would be an interesting project to undertake. Most maps/diagrams I've seen are clearly not aiming for accuracy (except for the most part Karen Wynn Fonstad's maps) and do not show the entirety of Ea.

Amb-09 Yes, we should definitely include the Hithaeglir. It looks like Arcus made a small change and forgot to post it here, I have renamed it Amb-09b:

Quote:
Amb-09b <LQ 1 {But the}[And yet other] mountains were the Hithaeglir...
I think the addition of "yet" helps it flow a bit better.

Also, Fin, the title should be "Ambarcanta," not "Ambracanta".
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