Tol-in-Gaurhoth LIV: The Council of Evil

[Boromir88]

That vote was just an outrageous throw-away!~Nogrod

Yep but be sure you want to rattle this one's cage before you step into the ring.

[Aganzir]

++Brinn

I prefer her over others who have been voted.

[Nogrod]

Anyone else for Ilya?

I could settle down with Brinn as well but would favour Ilya.

Nog you always get more paranoid when the deadline draws near.

Paranoia is my second name...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Paranoia is my second name...

Haha it's just funny that you so often seem to post one-liners throwing suspicion around when it's just a few minutes to the deadline.

[Nogrod]

Okay then.

++ Brinn


A cage for a wizard, Boro? Or is it a wolf that lurks under your cloak and is caged for reason?

[Boromir88]

The number of non-voters is ridiculous by the way.

[Aganzir]

Yeah less than half of us voted...

edit: Anyway I suppose the day is done now although Gollum isn't here to post the deadline.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The number of non-voters is ridiculous by the way.

So true...

[Nogrod]

After such amount of back and forthing with the beginning-date + the holiday-season preparations being under way I do understand why that is - but it doesn't change the fact. Too many were not involved.

[Meneltarmacil]

OK, I'll vote now, despite my lack of anything really solid to go on.

After Gwathagor made the bear accusation earlier, Ilya mentions that Bowie is "up to something" and also mentions suspicion of Gwath, but lets the latter slide.

I don't think Strongbow has done much that warrants suspicion, and I agree that Gwath tends to make suspicious comments regardless of whethjer or not he actually turns out to be evil. Ilya does seem a bit suspicious, and I also don't like how Aganzir flip-flops on several different people (including Ilya). I get the sense that she is trying to cast suspicion on others, yet making it appear otherwise.

For now, I'll vote for

++Aganzir

[Ilya]

Well, I'm back.

You know, it's funny to read almost everyone voicing suspicion of me but no one's voted for me. (When is the deadline, btw? Gollum?) I'm like the electric car.

As to my cleverly worded suspicion of Gwath, if I voice a thing I don't see how it gives me any denyability later. I am suspicious of him, but because I couldn't find any textual evidence - I mean, I brushed the whole you're a werebear thing off as a Day 1 ribbing - I know myself well enough to know it's because I'm leaning on other people.

Bowie: All right then, young sir, I meant no offense. It's my job to ask questions 'bout loud players I don't know. There's talk of strange folk abroad. Can't be too careful.

So, Brinn is gone unless Menel's vote got in over the deadline. I'm going ++Brinn to just be sure there's no double-lynch...if I'm under the deadline, that is.

[Kath]

Argh! What is wrong with me? Every single flipping Day 1 I just miss! I'm assuming this post is outside the deadline as it's 12am my time and that's definitely outside 10pm.

I will be around toMorrow, I apologise for toDay.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

After Gwathagor made the bear accusation earlier, Ilya mentions that Bowie is "up to something" and also mentions suspicion of Gwath, but lets the latter slide.

I'll say this again: I was not accusing Strongbow. That was a piece of early Day 1 banter and did not reflect any serious suspicions on my part.

Anyway, I think I missed the deadline. We were out taking Narnia pictures in the snow.

Gollum probably won't count my vote, but out of principle and hurt feelings:

++Eonwe

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by me

After last game, I won't be surprised if you all decide to lynch me early on.

Told you so.

Which is why I chose to join this game even though I knew my heart wouldn't be entirely into it with the holidays interfering. I figured I'd get lynched early in whatever next game I played, and I wanted it to occur at a time when I wasn't feeling completely devoted. Quite honestly I'm not a huge loss, since I don't think I would've had much time to contribute anyway. I just hope you guys don't continue to lynch me "just in case" for every game following...otherwise it'll no longer be fun for me.

P.S. Just for future reference, I'm not always a baddie. You're just lucky I'm not the seer.

P.P.S. I am dead...right?

[Brinniel]

Btw Ilya, if that's a vote, it doesn't count unless it's on a separate line...at least that's the typical rules. But it doesn't matter because Agan has two votes and I have three, I think.

[Gollum the Great]

With the roles sent out late, multiple players unaware that the game had started (or thought it began with a night), and Christmas doings being attended to, I will consider all posts as within the reaches of the day phase.

Brinn to be slain soon. Description will follow soon....

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

With the roles sent out late, multiple players unaware that the game had started (or thought it began with a night), and Christmas doings being attended to, I will consider all posts as within the reaches of the day phase.

Brinn to be slain soon. Description will follow soon....

Ack! For some reason I thought we started tomorrow, or I'd have checked the board. Sorry, everyone!

[Gollum the Great]

After some arguing and speeches, the Council chose to eliminate the Wingless Dragon Brinniel. "One can never fully trust the offspring of Glaurung," said one Councilor, "remember what he did to his orcs after he conquered Nargothrond!"
Several moved towards the dragon, not quite willing to come too close.
"At least you're not killing one of those who aid the Council," Brinniel said, "but I cannot prove my innocence."

"You're right you can't," growled Eonwe, and Brinniel snarled at him.

Two members leapt swiftly forward and smashed the scaly head. Black blood burst forth as from a fountain and Brinniel exhaled for the last time. Sticky liquid spread over the stone floor while the dying worm murmured: "Glory to Morgoth!"

...and the Council realized they had not acted for the best.

Councilors:

Aganzir
Boromir88
Eonwe
Gwathagor
Ilya
Isabellkya
Kath
Meneltarmacil
Nogrod
Sally
Shasta
Strongbow

Dead:

Brinniel (innocent)

[Gollum the Great]

No time for a descriptive post.

Alatar was slain in the night.


Dead:

Boro (inno)
Brinn (inno)


Alive:

Everyone else

Begin without me; I won't be here.

[Strongbow]

Alas.

Did the Bear choose not to kill? I am surprised.

[Aganzir]

Ouch.

Well at least this makes me feel quite good about Nog. I find it incredibly hard to imagine he'd kill someone he enjoys playing with that much, even to bluff.

I wonder why there was only one kill if we're supposed to have both two wolves and a bear. Hmm Izzy hasn't been online has she? Could it be she is the bear and just doesn't know the game has started? Or does just one team get a kill each night? Or was it deliberate? I assume the gifted roles are traditional and neither of them has any protecting abilities?

I think it's possible the killer/s thought Boro was the seer. It's a thing at least I considered yesterday. In addition, he was quite widely regarded as innocent. Plus he can be a dangerous player.

A narration would have been nice provided that it had given us some insight as to whether it was the bear or wolves who killed Boro, but...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

I also don't like how Aganzir flip-flops on several different people (including Ilya). I get the sense that she is trying to cast suspicion on others, yet making it appear otherwise.

How am I flip-flopping? On who? How does it look like I was indirectly trying to cast suspicion on people?

Lil' Miss Aganzir is off to sleep.

[Meneltarmacil]

To answer your question, Aganzir, you initially said this about Gwathagor:

Also, I'm suspicious of Gwath because of his maybe-you-knew-because-you're-the-bear comment

and then followed it up in other posts with things like this:

Guilty
Gwath. Because of that "Maybe you are the werebear and that's how you knew." suggestion.

and

I dare guess that if people were suspecting Bowie very much now because of that, you wouldn't be saying so.

Later on, however, you seemed to change your opinion with this statement:

My first comment regarding Gwath was more of an attempt to get some talk than a real suspicion.

(Gwath was clearly listed as "Guilty" by you earlier, though...)
Also, despite your discussion about Gwath with Boromir88 afterward which yielded the "Guilty" comment, you made this statement:

I was the first to come up with the subject but I haven't been pursuing him since.

Add that to the continuous suspicion of Brinniel the unjustly killed, and things don't look too good.

Well, that's all for now, as I grow weary and must retire to the giant treasure heap in my lair for some rest.

[Aganzir]

Those familiar with my playing know I always roughly divide people into Guilty, Innocent and Neither categories. One can always ask himself how much trust they should lay on these lists made before there has even been 20 posts.

My first comment regarding Gwath was an attempt to get some talk instead of a real suspicion. I tend not to be all convinced someone is a baddie just because of one weird comment, and later on I found it reasonable to change my initial opinion.

By saying I hadn't been pursuing Gwath after the start I meant I hadn't come up with new things pointing at his guilt.

On who else did I flip flop? How did I flip flop on Ilya? How was I casting suspicion on people while trying to appear I didn't?

And as for you, Menel, earlier you were all for suspecting Gwath but after hours of non-activity you came back, saying Gwath has a tendency to make suspicious comments regardless of his role, and attacking me because I changed my opinion on him. Why can you do it if I can't? I could accuse you now of flip flopping on Gwath, and vote for you, and my vote would be perfectly as just as yours for me.

Also, forget what I said about Nog not being a baddie because of Boro's death. As long as we don't know why there was just one kill (ie if the teams take turns in killing or if one team just refrained from killing for one reason or other) we can't be sure. It's still possible Nog's a baddie and it was the other team that's responsible for killing Boro.

Guilty
Menel worries me slightly but I acknowledge it is probably more due to his (in my opinion) irrational suspicion on me, plus I always find his playing style suspicious.
Ilya. Her comment that Bowie looks like he had a role was not a thing I would have expected an innocent to say. Just because it'd be dangerous for Bowie if he was, say, the seer. Also, her honesty is a thing that contributed to my suspicion on her in last game. Just because it'd be such a good cover for a newbie-ish baddie. Irrational I know but I can't help it.

Innocent
Eönwë
Gwathy. The amount of suspicion cast on him yesterday was more suspicious than his bear comment, and after that he's been looking quite innocent. Besides I take pride in being a rather good Gwolf-catcher , and he hasn't been giving off any baddie vibes thus far so I'm not worried about him.
Bowie is the one I feel the least confident about but I'm ready to consider him innocent as well.

Neither
Nog. Gah I just don't know. However one thing is sure: he didn't kill Boro.
**
Isabell
Kath
sally
Shasta

Also, I can tell you it's depressing to come online after sleeping like ten hours and having breakfast and doing all kinds of stuff to be met with just one post after mine...

[Kath]

Well hello! I'm just posting to say that I will be around toDay but won't have a chance to post properly until later in the day as we have lots of RL things going on. I will return though.

[Eönwë]

I'm not really going to be able to post much today, as I won't be around at the DL, but I'll reread the thread (all 3 pages!) and see what I can come up with.

[Strongbow]

Well, after Nighttime, I'd say that the only thing that really surprises me is the number of kills. Perhaps this is what Gollum was talking about when he said that the Bear was "modified"...that it could choose when it wanted to kill, and not kill. This is a very scary thought, because WHO KNOWS when the Bear could strike now?

Anyhow:

I think Ilya's reaction to me was a bit sketch. Quoting the doorman at Bree (is his name Harry? I can never remember.), eh? Wasn't he in league with Bill Ferny, the Southrons, the Ruffians, and eventually...the Ringwraiths? Hmmm...I'm looking at you, but not too hard.

Everybody else is really illegible right now. I don't think Menel's attack on you is unwarranted, Agan, but both of you be careful, and try not to get into a Wine in Front of Me scenario. (from The Princess Bride. If you need an explanation, just ask me.)

[satansaloser2005]

("But Doctor, where is your gorgeous time travelling assistant?")

I'm here! I'm here!



Sorry, madcap couple of days, but I'm here now and need to read over things. Should be back fairly soon!

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Strongbow

Because, friend, the Werebear is the Serial Killer in other incarnations of our predicament.

Indeed. Also called a postal worker in some versions of Mafia, but Serial Killer is the best parallel. (I'm guessing someone plays on facebook.... )

Originally Posted by Ilya

Just got back from some christmas stealing and there's not too much doing on the thread? Already I miss Phantom and his hemorrhagic style of posting.

Thankee, Strongbow, for the werebear tip. Glad to see at least somebody's up to speed.

Christmas stealing?

I miss Phantom too. Though having a day and a half (as of now) over and only three pages to read is a relief, I must say it's a bit boring.

Originally Posted by Strongbow

Agan - I wasn't accusing you. That was species-directed, not alignment directed. And yes, Bowie will suffice. You're correct in saying that I have played Werewolf before, although it was called Mafia, and the Werebear was the Serial Killer. That's the reason why the mechanics are so familiar to me. - No suspicion

Menel - No suspicion

Boro - My eye is on you, but just because I've seen you to be devious in the past. Not an open accusation. - Small suspicion

Gwath - I can't be sure of anything, but you don't trust me for my knowledge of the enemy. My eye is also on you, even more so than the Blue Wizard. - Suspicion

Brinn - My reasoning still stands. - Suspicion

All the others I have no call on for now.

Careful, love. As I'm well aware, suspecting someone just because you always have doesn't always pan out. Then again, that's a risk you take and with Boro it's well founded, the silly devious fellow that he is. (Rather, was well founded, I suppose, since he's dead. By the way, who the heck would choose Boro as their first night kill? I'll probably talk more about that later, but right now I'm just going through things so I'll hopefully come back to it)

I don't understand why Bowie (that makes me giggle, by the way, just saying) suspects Brinn. Granted, I have the added knowledge of knowing Brinn is innocent when I read everything, so I may be biased, but still.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I'm sure one of the reasons this Day has been so quiet is because several players haven't realised the game has started (and with a Day), and are too busy with RL holiday stuff to check the Downs. I don't think that'll point to any sort of guilt or innocence.

After last game, I won't be surprised if you all decide to lynch me early on. It's a good thing I don't have a special role. For once, I'm actually not the slightest bit worried. I'm just relieved to finally get to play without the pressure of being something other than ordo for the first time in 2 1/2 games.

I have to vote very soon, btw.

Yeah, I had no idea that the game had started either. I'm not going to throw out the first Day completely, but it was so hectic and I'm sure most of you lovely people were busy so I'm willing to overlook a few bits of insanity or randomness.

2 1/2 games? *confused face* Anyway, poor Brinn. Again, I don't see what was so off about her, and I'm truly sorry she was yesterDay's lynchee.

Originally Posted by Strongbow

Well, after Nighttime, I'd say that the only thing that really surprises me is the number of kills. Perhaps this is what Gollum was talking about when he said that the Bear was "modified"...that it could choose when it wanted to kill, and not kill. This is a very scary thought, because WHO KNOWS when the Bear could strike now?

Anyhow:

I think Ilya's reaction to me was a bit sketch. Quoting the doorman at Bree (is his name Harry? I can never remember.), eh? Wasn't he in league with Bill Ferny, the Southrons, the Ruffians, and eventually...the Ringwraiths? Hmmm...I'm looking at you, but not too hard.

Everybody else is really illegible right now. I don't think Menel's attack on you is unwarranted, Agan, but both of you be careful, and try not to get into a Wine in Front of Me scenario. (from The Princess Bride. If you need an explanation, just ask me.)

That's very possible, Bowie. In most games I've played, the Serial Killer/Postal Worker is nto required to kill every night, but is given the opportunity to do so if they wish. Here's another theory though, cracked though it may be. What are the odds that the wolves and the Bear targeted the same person? Just putting that out for discussion.

Heh. For that reference you automatically win the game, I don't care whose side you're on. Ten minutes -I need to settle the details with Gollum- then the narration will come.

Anyway, no one's posted since my last post, at least no one had when I started this one. So if there's anything between my two posts, it's x'd. Enjoy!

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Strongbow

Well, after Nighttime, I'd say that the only thing that really surprises me is the number of kills.

Out of curiosity, why aren't you surprised of Boro's death?

Originally Posted by Bowie

Anyhow:I don't think Menel's attack on you is unwarranted, Agan, but both of you be careful, and try not to get into a Wine in Front of Me scenario. (from The Princess Bride. If you need an explanation, just ask me.)

Well I do, but then again every time I'm accused while innocent, the reasons feel bad. And since the knowledge of my own innocence is usually all I have, I can start working from that basis. You never know when the one accusing you is in fact a wolf who needs to accuse innocents to ensure their own survival.
Also, I need an explanation.

I find it pretty awkward that deadline is in four hours and there has been nine posts from six people, three of whom just checking in.

edit: ooh xed with sally

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I find it pretty awkward that deadline is in four hours and there has been nine posts from six people, three of whom just checking in.

edit: ooh xed with sally

Yeah, that worries me too.


Okay, Boro's death. Who would kill Boro? Agan, you're here, what are your thoughts my furry -erm, funny- little friend?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

By the way, who the heck would choose Boro as their first night kill? I'll probably talk more about that later, but right now I'm just going through things so I'll hopefully come back to it)

I would imagine it to be someone rather quiet (which applies to almost everyone in this village, at least thus far) who hasn't played much enough to learn to regard Boro as a precious jewel who plays way too seldom.
Or then it's someone who wants to bluff... But it's sure not to be Nog. He wouldn't do it even for the sake of bluff.

Originally Posted by sally

I don't understand why Bowie (that makes me giggle, by the way, just saying) suspects Brinn.

I can't speak for him, but I suspected her because her posting looked forced. Okay and maybe the idea that she deserved to be lynched also occurred to me... But it didn't contribute to my suspicions at all. Funny by the way that I should want to punish her for my own inability to catch her in last game.

Originally Posted by sally

What are the odds that the wolves and the Bear targeted the same person? Just putting that out for discussion.

Dang I knew I had forgotten something when posting my list of rhetorical questions at the beginning of the day, thanks sally.
I don't know about that though. Then we would need to find three people who agreed to kill him and it just doesn't compute. Or, well, maybe if they all thought he was the seer? I'm not sure how likely that is.

edit: xed with sally again

[Strongbow]

Okay, Wine in Front of Me is a logical fallacy, and is a situation of circular reasoning which wears out both parties involved. I'm going to paraphrase the situation (forgive me William Goldman/Rob Reiner):

The Man in Black has reached his third enemy (after defeating the blademaster Inigo Montoya and the Turkish strongman Fezzik), the evil Sicilian Vizzini, who has captured the Princess Buttercup. Vizzini has set up a picnic for TMiB, presumably to negotiate a price for the Princess. TMiB proposes another solution: he will poison one of the glasses, and Vizzini must choose which glass he will. Whoever lives gets Buttercup. Whoever dies...dies. Vizzini shifts in between faulty logic, eventually overthinking his predicament, and he begins to choose the wine in front of him, but then forces TMiB to look the other way, as he switches the glasses. After they drink, Vizzini laughs hysterically, revealing his deception. That is, until he drops dead. TMiB spent years building up a tolerance to the poison, and therefore he poisoned both glasses.

Moral of the story: don't overthink, Agan and Menel.

I know I'm x-ing with Agan, so I'm just going to say that if we had a descriptive death post, we might know how Boro was killed.

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Out of curiosity, why aren't you surprised of Boro's death?

Because I wouldn't be surprised if any of us had died. I was honestly dreading my own death, for a while.

[Aganzir]

But werewolf is all about thinking and overthinking.

[satansaloser2005]

Extremely quick thoughts, basically Boro-centric.

Aganzir: She might try to pull a bluff, but I think she would keep Boro around as long as possible.
Boromir88: He did it! A frame job, indeed!
Eonwe: It's....possible, I suppose.
Gwathagor: After last game, I think he would see the value of keeping Boro around, but if they're on opposite sides it would point to the opposite conclusion. I'd consider it, and since Boro's a fair opponent I would think Gwath's more than intelligent enough to get him out of the way as soon as he can.
Ilya, Izzy, Kath, and Menel: No idea. It's very possible that any of them could have killed him but I don't know.
Nogrod: Unless it's some sort of screwy mind game, no. Noggie would almost definitely want Boro to stick around, for entertainment value if nothing else.
Sally: Erm, I didn't do it. Duh.
Shasta: I know a few games ago he was a bit cross with Boro, so if he needed a night kill I think he may have chosen Boro first. Not to say that he's holding a grudge, but if your first night kill is someone you don't want to play with I would think Boro would be on Shasta's list.
Strongbow: Maybe random, but I don't think he'd have a specific reason to kill Boro. All in all Bowie may be our best bet, as he's not played with Boro before.


Point is, either Boro's death was random, a bluff, or a deliberate kill because of how Boro plays. Great. That tells us nothing.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Strongbow

Okay, Wine in Front of Me is a logical fallacy, and is a situation of circular reasoning which wears out both parties involved. I'm going to paraphrase the situation (forgive me William Goldman/Rob Reiner):

The Man in Black has reached his third enemy (after defeating the blademaster Inigo Montoya and the Turkish strongman Fezzik), the evil Sicilian Vizzini, who has captured the Princess Buttercup. Vizzini has set up a picnic for TMiB, presumably to negotiate a price for the Princess. TMiB proposes another solution: he will poison one of the glasses, and Vizzini must choose which glass he will. Whoever lives gets Buttercup. Whoever dies...dies. Vizzini shifts in between faulty logic, eventually overthinking his predicament, and he begins to choose the wine in front of him, but then forces TMiB to look the other way, as he switches the glasses. After they drink, Vizzini laughs hysterically, revealing his deception. That is, until he drops dead. TMiB spent years building up a tolerance to the poison, and therefore he poisoned both glasses.

Moral of the story: don't overthink, Agan and Menel.

Moral of the story: Rocks fall, everybody (but Bowie) dies from lack of making Princess Bride references.

Bowie, if you did kill Boro, you made a mistake. If nothing else you always keep Boro around for the fun quotes.


Going to work in about an hour, and I don't think I want to risk getting on the internet there, so we'll see how I feel like voting then. I suppose it would help you all get a better read on me if I made a bit of a suspicion list, so I'll see what I can do, savvy?

[Aganzir]

Yeah sally I would most definitely keep Boro around longer, especially in this quiet a village.

I just find it pretty hard to see he was killed as a bluff. I think Nog's the only one who even could bluff by killing Boro, and he wouldn't do it this early. Unless maybe if he was like totally convinced Boro was the seer, which I don't think was possible.

Still, I wouldn't exclude the possibility he was considered the seer...

Anyway I'm not sure how much it helps that we discuss Boro's death over and over again. Well in lack of anything else...

[Aganzir]

I don't know why and I can't put my finger on it, but sally makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. Somehow she reminds me of the cobbler-sally I've seen... But then again she's quite involved now which I don't think cobbler-sally was.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I don't know why and I can't put my finger on it, but sally makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. Somehow she reminds me of the cobbler-sally I've seen... But then again she's quite involved now which I don't think cobbler-sally was.

Well if it helps this is probably one of the last posts I'll make toDay. I felt guilty about not knowing the game was on yesterDay so I decided to have a posting party before I went to work.


Problem is, I don't know who to vote for. Everyone's either quiet or not that suspicious. Very frustrating.