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Old 03-04-2004, 07:57 AM   #1
Hot, crispy nice hobbit
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Master of Ring by Ring mastered?

Well, I don't know whether this has come up before, but I sure notice something strange with regard to the ownership of the One Ring.

Gandalf said that the Ring could change masters if they suited itself.

Quote:
A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it
So, Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo are merely the Ring's keepers, not owner. Yet, three of them - Isildur, Gollum and Bilbo, had uttered 'My precious' at one time or another. The ownership of the Ring is not transfered to them just because they said 'My precious' upteenth times. But watch what happen when Frodo said: 'The Ring is MINE!'

Quote:
And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in barad-dur was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown.
Okay, let's compare that to what Isildur said when he claimed the Ring:

Quote:
This I will have as weregild for my father, and my brother
Obviously, he did not command the allegience of the Nazgul at that moment. Now listen to what Bilbo said:

Quote:
'If I am it is your fault,' said Bilbo. 'It is mine, I tell you. My own. My precious. Yes, my precious.'
Was it only me, or does that not seem strange that Sauron would NOT notice Bilbo in the Shire as he said those words? Why should Sauron notice only Frodo? Okay, I guess it is hard not to notice a sneaking hobbit inside your own kitchen, but what I want to know is did Mordor suffered an Earthquake when Isildur/Bilbo/Gollum said 'The Ring is Mine!'. Sauron's Nazgul would then be at their heels like dogs after a hare.
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Old 03-04-2004, 08:36 AM   #2
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this is my own view that when isildur claimed the ring for his own the dark lord could not do anything to regain it back as he was defeated by the last alliance and his power had greatly diminished and the nazgul had fled

as for bilbo he was far away in the shire and not even the dark lords eye could see that far away

and frodo calimed the ring to be his own in the very heart of the dark lords realm as if challenging him and at that instant the dark lord had both the power and closeness(his eye could see in the very heart of his realm) so the dark lord was aware.

and gollum was actually a very small creature hiding in deeep underground hills where the dark lords eye could not see so only frodo was chased

hope this satisfies you.
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Old 03-04-2004, 02:59 PM   #3
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I agree with rutslegolas about Isildur and Sauron not being able to do anything about it. I think the part with Gollum and Bilbo is that when they said "It is mine," they really didn't understand completely what it was they were saying. When Frodo said it he knew full well about Sauron and the Ring's powers. He was in fact claiming it, challenging Sauron to an extent. Also when Gollum and Bilbo had the Ring Sauron was still growing again and he had thought the Ring was lost forever. He didn't start looking for it until Frodo had gotten the Ring when he realized the Ring wasn't lost.

I'm not sure about my timing on that. Sauron may have found out about the Ring still being there when Bilbo had it. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 03-04-2004, 07:29 PM   #4
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hmm it seems to me that when frodo said "The Ring is mine!", he was being specific, as to when Bilbo just said "It's mine i tell you, my precious!" So maybe why sauron didnt see bilbo in the shire is because he didnt really claim it. To claim it is to mention the Ring.

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Old 03-04-2004, 08:07 PM   #5
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[quote]I want to know is did Mordor suffered an Earthquake when Isildur/Bilbo/Gollum said 'The Ring is Mine!'.[quote]

For clarification: earthquake, crashes and roars, etc happened when the Ring was destroyed, not when anyone claimed it as their own.

I agree with Firefoot...Frodo was fully aware of what the Ring was when he claimed it...course, probably so was Isildur. But, I wonder if the location of the claim on the Ring made a difference. A transfer of power had occurred in this very spot before...when Sauron made the Ring there. I believe that the Chambers of Fire (Sammath Naur) was where Sauron first put the ring on his finger and said the words to bring the ring to life. Frodo was in the same area as the previous transfer of power, and speaking words of claim to the Ring.
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Old 03-05-2004, 08:06 AM   #6
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earthquake, crashes and roars, etc happened when the Ring was destroyed, not when anyone claimed it as their own
But it was said that the Tower of Barad-dur trembled from its foundations. Is that supposed to mean that Sauron is literally the tower?

Now, subtracting Gollum and Bilbo, who were both too far away for Sauron to notice as many have suggested, Isildur should have been the Secong Dark Lord. Obviously, there can been evidence against that as well because, Prof T himself wrote that Gandalf is probably the only one who is powerful enough to claim Sauron's power for himself.

But this irresistable lust to claim the Ring baffles me. Virtually everyone is after the Ring because it lures people to its power. But the Ring chose to stay in Frodo's hands while he is travelling towards Mordor, for the obvious reason of reuniting with Sauron. But at Mount Doom, the Ring surely would have known that it has reached its "home". Why does it still lure Frodo into claiming it? Was it because, by that time, Frodo himself was corrupted with greed and desire for power even without urgings from the Ring?

If the Ring knows its Master, it would have rejected Frodo just at the point when the Black Gates open for the Witchking of Angmar to pass. The Ring had plenty of opportunity of disengaging itself from Frodo all the while he was in Mordor, but it did not...

So is it true that the Ring is betraying Sauron as well?
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Old 03-05-2004, 08:19 AM   #7
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But at Mount Doom, the Ring surely would have known that it has reached its "home". Why does it still lure Frodo into claiming it?
Because the alternative would have been to allow Frodo to destroy it.

It knew that once Frodo claimed it, it would not be long before it was back in its Master's hands. The Ring was not seeking to betray Sauron. On the contrary, it was desperate to return to him. Once Frodo made it to Mordor, it's best bet was to stay with him and wait until he claimed it, thus alerting Sauron and his minions to its location.

Of course, it didn't count on Gollum's clumsiness (aka divine intervention).
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Old 03-05-2004, 07:00 PM   #8
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But it was said that the Tower of Barad-dur trembled from its foundations. Is that supposed to mean that Sauron is literally the tower?

I guess I never thought about the trembling as the beginning of an earthquake.
Quote:
the Power in Barad-dur was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown.
In next paragraph:
Quote:
From all his (Sauron's) policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his strategems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his servents quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired.
No, I don't believe that Sauron was literally the tower. According to the text, you would then have to believe that he was literally his entire realm. Because, a tremor ran throughout his realm in addition to the trembling of the tower.

I interpret the trembling of the tower to be associated with the sudden fear of its master/maker.

Concerning Barad-dur, an interesting sentence in one of my reference books:
Quote:
First constructed early in the Second Age (and completed with the power of the Ring, which rendered its foundations impregnable),
Also, the reference mentions that even though the tower itself was destroyed (the first time) by the Last Alliance Army, its foundations, which were built with the power of the ring survived and could not be unmade.
It is interesting that after Frodo claimed the Ring that the Tower trembled from its foundation.
Again, why all this effect after Frodo claimed it? I think the location had something to do with it. (Unless, of course, Isildur had also put the ring on his finger and claimed it when he was at Sammath Naur. I don't know if he did that while there, or if he just refused to toss it in the fires.) If he did, then my theory is all washed up!
Above all, as Saucepan Man points out; divine guiding of events and circumstances was all-important.

Ok, now for another cup of tea...
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Old 03-06-2004, 07:13 AM   #9
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ya elven princess i think that the dark lord itself was not the tower but the the dark tower was made with the power of the ring and with the power of the dark lord.

so when frodo claimed the ring for his own the dark lord knew that it could be the end of his realm,so the power in barad-dur trembled (i.e. the dark lord trembled)

and so i think that tolkein mentions that the tower itself trembled,thats atleast what i think.

what do the loremasters think?
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Old 03-08-2004, 04:34 AM   #10
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I still found it rather queer that when Isildur claimed the One Ring, he did not understand the significance of the One Ring. Surely, Gil-gilad and Elrond would have explained the whole situation to Isildur before the War? Apparently, Isildur was challenging the power of Sauron when he claimed the One Ring after Sauron's first demise.

The Foundations of Baradur were not broken at that time, neither were there mention of any tremors, because the power of the ring bound the realm together. If Sauron is being literally the entire realm of Mordor, then his first demise would have removed even the foundations.
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Old 03-08-2004, 07:10 AM   #11
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there were not any tremors mentioned in the dark lord's first fall because the ring was'nt going to be destroyed and the dark lord was'nt the whole realm but his whole realm was made with the power of the ring and the power of the dark lord ,so when he realised this tremors ran down throughout his realm.

and i do not think that gil-galad and elendil had gone to war with the dark lord with the intention of taking away the ring from him ,so isildur did ot know the power of the ring
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Old 03-08-2004, 07:35 PM   #12
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Don't forget to factor in the divine intervention of Iluvatar in all these events. When Ilisdur took the ring, it just wasn't Iluvatar's timing yet that it be destroyed.
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Old 03-08-2004, 08:15 PM   #13
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I beg to differ luthien, I dont think Eru was all that concerned about the daily life and events in arda/middle earth, thats why he made the Ainur, to kepp after his children and make sure every thing is not completely destroyed.
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Old 03-12-2004, 07:15 AM   #14
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ya i think lore master is coorect.
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Old 03-12-2004, 11:34 AM   #15
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Eye

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Why should Sauron notice only Frodo?
The answer lies in one of your quotes-
Quote:
And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in barad-dur was shaken...
Take note of two things- 1) he claimed it in "the very heart of his (Sauron's) realm" and 2) he did it as he "put on the Ring".

That's why Sauron noticed immediately.
Quote:
According to the text, you would then have to believe that he was literally his entire realm. Because, a tremor ran throughout his realm in addition to the trembling of the tower.
This is somewhat true. Though Sauron isn't his realm, his will and power can be found driving and binding together everything in his realm.
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Old 03-12-2004, 12:07 PM   #16
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and i do not think that gil-galad and elendil had gone to war with the dark lord with the intention of taking away the ring from him ,so isildur did ot know the power of the ring
Indeed, Isildur did not know the depth of the Ring's powers, but he did come to realize them as he kept the Ring thereafter. In "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields," in the Unfinished Tales, Isildur confides to his son Elendur that he means to take the Ring to Rivendell, as he knows within himself that he is incapable of holding this burden and keeping it safe. He has claimed the Ring, but without full knowledge of the Ring itself, rather, he claims it in memory of his dead father and brother, as a symbolic payment (weregild).

As a side note, even though Sauron is defeated and the Ring severed from him, it still calls out to his servants, and it is suggested that this is how the orcs track the Men on their way to Rivendell and what finally spells Isildur's doom. Although Sauron himself is too weak to bring his direct power to bear on Isildur, his servants are ever drawn to the Dark Power and are directed toward it.

As for the tremors that ran through Barad-Dur, I think also that, since the foundations of this tower were said to have been built with the power of the Ring, once Frodo claimed it, he would have direct sway over the Tower itself (or he would perceive himself to have such.) This goes back to an old topic I posted on some time ago concerning the final temptation of Frodo after he claims the Ring. Tolkien, in his Letters, lines out the delusions that would bewitch Frodo after he claims the Ring at the Sammath Naur and how he would envision his own new benevolent realm, blinded to all else until the Nazgul barred the exit and Sauron came to claim his Ring (alternate scenario). The end of this scenario has Frodo as Sauron's gibbering slave and the Ring back where Sauron wants it--because once the Nazgul hemmed the hobbits in and Sauron reached the Ring, Frodo would be no match for him. But I wonder if the trembling towers and the power contained in the foundations of Barad-Dur all vibrated in Frodo's mind at the instant of the claiming of the Ring; he would have felt the power to make them stand or fall. Also, Sauron was in shock at realizing where his Ring was at that instant. I'm sure all the power he put forth to keep his realm running, his servants under his thumb, etc. was redirected at that instant, leaving everything else unsupervised.

Alas, I must attend to the problems of the day and leave this post where it is...I hope it provides some illumination!

Cheers!
Lyta
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