Sauron relying on Saruman - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

steve · 10-25-2003, 03:50 PM

I just had a tought earlier today, It seems to me that if Sarum,an did not join Sauron, sauron would have had allmost no chance of conquring ME. Sauron's army folded allmost immediatly aftr the Rohirrim arived at pelennor fields. If saruman had not have been "evil" then the Rohirrim would have been in much greater numbers, and would have helped Gondor much earlier then they did.

rudeboy · 10-25-2003, 04:41 PM

Sauron's would have still beaten them, but it would have been in Gondor. The only thing that prevented him from conquering M.E was the destruction of the one ring!

Lord of Angmar · 10-25-2003, 04:43 PM

The Rohirrim did help to defeat Sauron's forces at the Pelennor Fields, but they would not have been the difference between a win and a loss without, as rudeboy said, the One Ring coming into play.

10-25-2003, 10:08 PM

Didn't the rout of Saruman hasten the attack of Sauron to where he attacked prematurely?

Eol Telemnar · 12-12-2003, 06:25 PM

going to the original ?, No, Definitly not. Saruman was Sauron's PUPPET. Sauron was only using Saruman. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

doug*platypus · 12-14-2003, 05:01 PM

Actually I would have to disagree. I believe that in a way, the treachery of Saruman helped Rohan to come to the aid of Gondor. This is an example of Success through Failure, or as Edward de Bono puts it, through the use of an intermediate impossible (more examples here). Saruman provided a nearby threat and a focal point that Rohan could unite and rally against. True, Théoden was kept out of the action for a long time by Wormtongue's "leechcraft", but once he came back to himself he was, I believe, more powerful than ever.

His fury at Saruman, and especially the deaths of Théodred and Háma, made him a truly unstoppable force. This was the kind of leadership the Rohirrim needed to play their part in the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Similarly, I think that Théoden's death after he had played his part in the battle was important for Éomer. Not only did he emerge as the new king, but he and the other knights were spurred on to great deeds in the battle.

I don't believe that the Muster of Rohan would have been as quick or complete without the former threat of Saruman. Most of the army had already been put together for the defence of Helm's Deep, making it much easier to assemble the host to ride to Gondor. Much easier to motivate people to defend themselves against Saruman than to simply ride to the aid of another country. Gandalf and Co wisely used the momentum of the previous battles and just kept on rolling to Pelennor.

Sauron and his Captain were not expecting to have to deal with the Rohirrim in the siege of Minas Tirith. Once the cavalry of Rohan got through the wall the siege was broken almost immediately. It was believed that Saruman had engaged Rohan. If Saruman had been on the side of Gandalf, and Rohan's help had been a certainty, then better plans would have been made to deal with them. Consequently, I think that Sauron would have been better off in the Battle of Pelennor Fields without any help from Saruman. The Wild Men deserve a lot of the credit, as well.

Finwe · 12-14-2003, 05:11 PM

If the Rohirrim hadn't been fighting Saruman, they wouldn't have been impassioned enough to ride to Gondor with horns a-blowing just after the Muster. In times of peace, it would have probably taken them longer to muster all their forces together, and in that delay, Minas Tirith would have probably fallen. The Rohirrim helped Gondor win that battle spurred on by pure passion alone.

Foolofatook · 12-14-2003, 10:03 PM

At the Battle of Pellenor Fields Sauron unleashed less than 10% of his forces. Pellenor was a trial of the strength of Gondor. The fact that the Rohirrim saved Gondor for a while may have helped Frodo sneak in to Mordor by occupying Sauron's eye long enough. But Saruman, the Rohirrim, and Gondor would not even have had a chance against the full onslaught of Sauron. You also need to remember that Sauron was fighting on all sides (supposedly in the South and East dependant on the other two Istari?) There was so little effort on the part of Sauron the first time around that it makes Saruman's armies seem pale in contrast. Also the armies of Sauron didn't fall to the arrival of Rohan but to the arrival of Aragorn and the ships of Umbar. Rohan delayed the enevitable just long enough for Frodo to get into Mordor.

10-25-2003, 03:50 PM	#1
steve Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia Posts: 191	Sauron relying on Saruman I just had a tought earlier today, It seems to me that if Sarum,an did not join Sauron, sauron would have had allmost no chance of conquring ME. Sauron's army folded allmost immediatly aftr the Rohirrim arived at pelennor fields. If saruman had not have been "evil" then the Rohirrim would have been in much greater numbers, and would have helped Gondor much earlier then they did. __________________ MAGIC SHOP! Spells of Mass Destruction 20% off! Today Only!

10-25-2003, 04:43 PM	#3
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	The Rohirrim did help to defeat Sauron's forces at the Pelennor Fields, but they would not have been the difference between a win and a loss without, as rudeboy said, the One Ring coming into play. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

12-12-2003, 06:25 PM	#5
Eol Telemnar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At my house, on my computer (where else would I be? Posts: 89	going to the original ?, No, Definitly not. Saruman was Sauron's PUPPET. Sauron was only using Saruman. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Eol Telemnar, The Dark Elf , Has Spoken, Heed My words well. Peace go with you.

12-14-2003, 05:01 PM	#6
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 963	Actually I would have to disagree. I believe that in a way, the treachery of Saruman helped Rohan to come to the aid of Gondor. This is an example of Success through Failure, or as Edward de Bono puts it, through the use of an intermediate impossible (more examples here). Saruman provided a nearby threat and a focal point that Rohan could unite and rally against. True, Théoden was kept out of the action for a long time by Wormtongue's "leechcraft", but once he came back to himself he was, I believe, more powerful than ever. His fury at Saruman, and especially the deaths of Théodred and Háma, made him a truly unstoppable force. This was the kind of leadership the Rohirrim needed to play their part in the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Similarly, I think that Théoden's death after he had played his part in the battle was important for Éomer. Not only did he emerge as the new king, but he and the other knights were spurred on to great deeds in the battle. I don't believe that the Muster of Rohan would have been as quick or complete without the former threat of Saruman. Most of the army had already been put together for the defence of Helm's Deep, making it much easier to assemble the host to ride to Gondor. Much easier to motivate people to defend themselves against Saruman than to simply ride to the aid of another country. Gandalf and Co wisely used the momentum of the previous battles and just kept on rolling to Pelennor. Sauron and his Captain were not expecting to have to deal with the Rohirrim in the siege of Minas Tirith. Once the cavalry of Rohan got through the wall the siege was broken almost immediately. It was believed that Saruman had engaged Rohan. If Saruman had been on the side of Gandalf, and Rohan's help had been a certainty, then better plans would have been made to deal with them. Consequently, I think that Sauron would have been better off in the Battle of Pelennor Fields without any help from Saruman. The Wild Men deserve a lot of the credit, as well. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

12-14-2003, 05:11 PM	#7
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	If the Rohirrim hadn't been fighting Saruman, they wouldn't have been impassioned enough to ride to Gondor with horns a-blowing just after the Muster. In times of peace, it would have probably taken them longer to muster all their forces together, and in that delay, Minas Tirith would have probably fallen. The Rohirrim helped Gondor win that battle spurred on by pure passion alone. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

10-25-2003, 04:41 PM	#2
rudeboy Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Flitwick, Beds Posts: 47	Sauron's would have still beaten them, but it would have been in Gondor. The only thing that prevented him from conquering M.E was the destruction of the one ring!

10-25-2003, 10:08 PM	#4
Amarthol Guest Posts: n/a	Didn't the rout of Saruman hasten the attack of Sauron to where he attacked prematurely?

12-14-2003, 10:03 PM	#8
Foolofatook Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: UMass Amherst Posts: 14	At the Battle of Pellenor Fields Sauron unleashed less than 10% of his forces. Pellenor was a trial of the strength of Gondor. The fact that the Rohirrim saved Gondor for a while may have helped Frodo sneak in to Mordor by occupying Sauron's eye long enough. But Saruman, the Rohirrim, and Gondor would not even have had a chance against the full onslaught of Sauron. You also need to remember that Sauron was fighting on all sides (supposedly in the South and East dependant on the other two Istari?) There was so little effort on the part of Sauron the first time around that it makes Saruman's armies seem pale in contrast. Also the armies of Sauron didn't fall to the arrival of Rohan but to the arrival of Aragorn and the ships of Umbar. Rohan delayed the enevitable just long enough for Frodo to get into Mordor. __________________ Fond as he was of Frodo, Fatty Bolger had no desire to leave the Shire, nor to see what lay outside it.