Sauron vs. Saruman - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Burzdol · 12-15-2003, 04:25 PM

Do you think, if this ever would've happened, that Saruman could defeat Sauron? How would Sauron fight if he was bodiless? Could he inhabit another being or something? If Saruman destroyed the Ring in the fires of Mt. Doom, could he take over as the supreme super-evil power? Just something to stur up some thought.

Legolas · 12-15-2003, 05:11 PM

Sauron bodiless? When?

Imbefana · 12-15-2003, 05:14 PM

No, I don't think Saruman could defeat Sauron. Both Sauron and Saruman were Maiar of Aule, but Saruman was put into Middle Earth around 1000 TA, whereas Sauron had been around long before the First Age. During which he was the right hand man to Melkor, and his most feared servant. Sauron was known as probably the most powerful Maiar -ever-, and although Saruman was the oldest of his and Gandalf's order, he would not be powerful enough to defeat the Dark Lord.

About Saruman throwing the Ring into Mount Doom... I don't believe he would. It was the study of and the obsession with the Ring of Power that corrupted him, and if he did get his hands on it, I believe the very last thing he would do would be to throw it away.

Without the Ring he would not have the ability to take over and become the "supreme super-evil power", just as the power of the three Elvish Rings diminished, as did the Ring Wraiths.

Also, in the end of the Two Towers (the book anyway) Saruman is driven out of Orthanc by Gandalf, and I think it's clear that Gandalf couldn't defeat Sauron on his own.

Hope this helps!

Tar-Alcarin · 12-15-2003, 06:18 PM

Dude, sauron had a body. He just 4 fingers. It wasnt like in the movie where he was just a floating eye ball on top of Barad-dur. He had a body, just with 4 fingers. STOP PAYING ATTENTION TO PJ AND HIS WARPED MOVIES!!!!! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

12-15-2003, 10:33 PM

In any case, unlike the movie, I imagine that wizard battles in Middle Earth were not like Dungeons and Dragons, with spells and physical fights.

Mahal · 12-16-2003, 06:55 AM

As said Sauron was I think stronger than Saruman, only Gandalf could pick up the ring and be the new owner. As for Sauron being the most powerful maia spirit that isn't true Eonwë and Ilmarë and others were I think more powerful.

Lord Elrond · 12-16-2003, 01:13 PM

Many things to consider. I agree in the Silmarillion it says Eonwe was the most powerful maiar in battle. Wether or not he could overcome all of Saurons forces or not is a different matter. I also would like to point out that nowhere does it say Gandalf couldn't defeat Sauron. He was instructed to come and encourage the peoples of middle earth to fight against Sauron, The istari themselves were not supposed to do the actual fighting only counseling and supporting. They could take place in battle with others but they were not supposed to try to go one on one with the Dark Lord. Sauron s actual physic is not stated after he was destroyed by Isildur, Gollum states that he has four fingers on his hand but he is also described as being an eye. These I think are metaphors or could be at least. I dont' think Sauron is actually as he was portrayed in the movie but neither do I think that he was in quite in human form either.
I do agree that Sauruman could never have become a super power on his own. He would have to keep the ring to be that powerful and by keeping the ring Sauron would still be in control because his fate is bound to the ring. Without the ring he is still just flesh that can be destroyed as happened by wormtongues hands and possibly happened to the blue wizards

Arwen Imladris · 12-16-2003, 03:49 PM

I think part of it has to do with timeing and where the ring was. If the ring was destroyed, Saruman would win. Another scenario in which Saruman might win would be if he were given a lot of time to become more 'evil'. As he stands at the time of the War of the Ring, I don't think that he is as far gone as Sauron is. He doesn't have the experiences, the knowledge or the resources to defeat Sauron. If he had more time I think that it would be a fairly equal match, providing that Sauron is kept busy with things other than 'bettering' himself.

Lord Elrond · 12-17-2003, 06:53 AM

I would have to disagree, Sauruman was ensnared by Sauron albeit indirectly but it was because of Sauron and his ring that he turned evil. without the ring sauron would have no real desire to be evil in fact you could almost say without sauron and the ring there would be very little evil left. Also it is clearly illustrated that Gandalf had the power to beat Sauruman after Sauruman's forces were defeated. If as you stated he waited till after the ring was destroyed he would have had a harder time in my opinion. He might have been able to increase his army size(although not anywhere as near as big as Saurons) but he would have then had Gondor as well as Rohan to deal with. Yes they both suffered great losses but they now had no threat to the East or South (The Haradrim surrendered, retreated or made new alliances as did the Easterlings) Also new allies were made and the North Kingdom was back under control of the King. Aragorn also had a palantir and the men of Gondors strength and hope was reignited with the Return of their King. No I do not think Sauruman could have become more of a superpower if the ring was destroyed

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 12-17-2003, 07:01 AM

This topic came up a long while ago here. Some of the arguments offered might be of interest in relation to this issue.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:02 AM December 17, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

12-15-2003, 04:25 PM	#1
Burzdol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Fair City of Rivendell Posts: 276	Sauron vs. Saruman Do you think, if this ever would've happened, that Saruman could defeat Sauron? How would Sauron fight if he was bodiless? Could he inhabit another being or something? If Saruman destroyed the Ring in the fires of Mt. Doom, could he take over as the supreme super-evil power? Just something to stur up some thought. __________________ "Kill them all for all I care. You just keep that bow away from me!"

12-15-2003, 05:11 PM	#2
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	Sauron bodiless? When? __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

12-15-2003, 05:14 PM	#3
Imbefana Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: idly sitting on a dock in Mithlond Posts: 19	No, I don't think Saruman could defeat Sauron. Both Sauron and Saruman were Maiar of Aule, but Saruman was put into Middle Earth around 1000 TA, whereas Sauron had been around long before the First Age. During which he was the right hand man to Melkor, and his most feared servant. Sauron was known as probably the most powerful Maiar -ever-, and although Saruman was the oldest of his and Gandalf's order, he would not be powerful enough to defeat the Dark Lord. About Saruman throwing the Ring into Mount Doom... I don't believe he would. It was the study of and the obsession with the Ring of Power that corrupted him, and if he did get his hands on it, I believe the very last thing he would do would be to throw it away. Without the Ring he would not have the ability to take over and become the "supreme super-evil power", just as the power of the three Elvish Rings diminished, as did the Ring Wraiths. Also, in the end of the Two Towers (the book anyway) Saruman is driven out of Orthanc by Gandalf, and I think it's clear that Gandalf couldn't defeat Sauron on his own. Hope this helps! __________________ ~You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?" --- George Bernard Shaw~

12-15-2003, 06:18 PM	#4
Tar-Alcarin Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Numenore Posts: 108	Dude, sauron had a body. He just 4 fingers. It wasnt like in the movie where he was just a floating eye ball on top of Barad-dur. He had a body, just with 4 fingers. STOP PAYING ATTENTION TO PJ AND HIS WARPED MOVIES!!!!! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] __________________ Miniature Rohirrim armor: $500. Amount of fuel it took pippin to light the beacons: $20. Seeing your two favourite hobbits get wasted and drunk: priceless

12-16-2003, 06:55 AM	#6
Mahal Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2003 Location: Paradox Realm Posts: 66	As said Sauron was I think stronger than Saruman, only Gandalf could pick up the ring and be the new owner. As for Sauron being the most powerful maia spirit that isn't true Eonwë and Ilmarë and others were I think more powerful. __________________ *A new technology does not add or substract something. It changes everything.*

12-15-2003, 10:33 PM	#5
Amoki Guest Posts: n/a	In any case, unlike the movie, I imagine that wizard battles in Middle Earth were not like Dungeons and Dragons, with spells and physical fights.

12-16-2003, 01:13 PM	#7
Lord Elrond Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Buffalo Posts: 38	Many things to consider. I agree in the Silmarillion it says Eonwe was the most powerful maiar in battle. Wether or not he could overcome all of Saurons forces or not is a different matter. I also would like to point out that nowhere does it say Gandalf couldn't defeat Sauron. He was instructed to come and encourage the peoples of middle earth to fight against Sauron, The istari themselves were not supposed to do the actual fighting only counseling and supporting. They could take place in battle with others but they were not supposed to try to go one on one with the Dark Lord. Sauron s actual physic is not stated after he was destroyed by Isildur, Gollum states that he has four fingers on his hand but he is also described as being an eye. These I think are metaphors or could be at least. I dont' think Sauron is actually as he was portrayed in the movie but neither do I think that he was in quite in human form either. I do agree that Sauruman could never have become a super power on his own. He would have to keep the ring to be that powerful and by keeping the ring Sauron would still be in control because his fate is bound to the ring. Without the ring he is still just flesh that can be destroyed as happened by wormtongues hands and possibly happened to the blue wizards __________________ "May the blessing of Elves, Men, and other free peoples go with you"

12-16-2003, 03:49 PM	#8
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	I think part of it has to do with timeing and where the ring was. If the ring was destroyed, Saruman would win. Another scenario in which Saruman might win would be if he were given a lot of time to become more 'evil'. As he stands at the time of the War of the Ring, I don't think that he is as far gone as Sauron is. He doesn't have the experiences, the knowledge or the resources to defeat Sauron. If he had more time I think that it would be a fairly equal match, providing that Sauron is kept busy with things other than 'bettering' himself. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

12-17-2003, 06:53 AM	#9
Lord Elrond Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Buffalo Posts: 38	I would have to disagree, Sauruman was ensnared by Sauron albeit indirectly but it was because of Sauron and his ring that he turned evil. without the ring sauron would have no real desire to be evil in fact you could almost say without sauron and the ring there would be very little evil left. Also it is clearly illustrated that Gandalf had the power to beat Sauruman after Sauruman's forces were defeated. If as you stated he waited till after the ring was destroyed he would have had a harder time in my opinion. He might have been able to increase his army size(although not anywhere as near as big as Saurons) but he would have then had Gondor as well as Rohan to deal with. Yes they both suffered great losses but they now had no threat to the East or South (The Haradrim surrendered, retreated or made new alliances as did the Easterlings) Also new allies were made and the North Kingdom was back under control of the King. Aragorn also had a palantir and the men of Gondors strength and hope was reignited with the Return of their King. No I do not think Sauruman could have become more of a superpower if the ring was destroyed __________________ "May the blessing of Elves, Men, and other free peoples go with you"

12-17-2003, 07:01 AM	#10
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,206	This topic came up a long while ago here. Some of the arguments offered might be of interest in relation to this issue. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:02 AM December 17, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ] __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?