Southern elves?

[Thinlómien]

I was reading The Hobbit and the following passage caught my eye:

The wine, and other goods, were brought from far away, from their kinsfolk in the South, or the vineyards of Men in distant lands.

(This is about Thranduil's wood elves, as you might know or guess.)

What is that "their kinsfolk in the South"? Does it refer to the elves of Lórien, for they are the only elves I know that live in South from Mirkwood's point of view. Or was this something Tolkien later didn't remember, and these Elves never came to his mythologies? Or can men be called Elves' kinsfolk? (I wouldn't say so.) Or are there some kind of Southern Elves mentioned in the HoME (sounds odd...)?

I'm quite puzzled. Does anyone have any ideas on this?

[Aiwendil]

I think that this statement is to be connected with the somewhat mysterious "Dor-winion". On Pauline Baynes's map of Middle-earth, Dor-winion (Land of Wine) is placed on the northwestern shore of the Sea of Rhun. This information is generally presumed to have come from Tolkien himself. This origin fits such details of the trade as we know. We know that the wine is brought up the Forest River from Lake Town and that the empty bottles are then sent back down the river. It may be that Lake Town gets their wine from Dor-winion and sends the barrels back down Celduin when they are empty (though I don't know whether that particular means of transportation would be as suitable over such great distances). In any case, if the wine originates in Dor Winion, and Dor Winion is indeed on the northwestern shore of the Sea of Rhun, that would fit the facts in The Hobbit, "south" being understood not to mean "the Distant South" but rather "south of the Wood-elves' realm". I have always imagined that the inhabitants of Dor-winion must be Avari.

To complicate matters, Dor-winion is also mentioned in the Narn i Chin Hurin, where it is said to lie in the "Burning South". This does seem a bit problematic, especially considering that the Narn was written well after The Hobbit - for "The Burning South" does not appear to be a particularly suitable description for the lands surrounding the Sea of Rhun; it rather suggests Harad.

[Lalwendë]

I think it just means that they brought the goods from the Elves of Lorien. They are kin, both groups of Elves being part of the Nandor, and mainly Silvan Elves.

I suppose the 'far away' would have been appropriate at that time, as wasn't Sauron in Dol Guldur at the time? I'm sure Gandalf and the White Council only evicted him at the end of the events in The Hobbit. With Sauron between the two realms they may as well have been thousands of miles apart.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I like the idea of Dorwinion, and elf wine makers,
being in the forests off the Sea of Rhun, since there
sems to be no hint (that I recall) of Lorien being
a wine making region. And it fits in with Tolkien's
theory of giving a feeling of depth by including
barely glimpsed vistas and mysteries such as the
fate of the entwives.

For those who indulge in roleplaying, it might make
an interesting scenario to consider the history of
these elves near Rhun in the war of the ring
(perhaps they just all fled to stay with their
highly valued customer Galion, Thranduil's
butler).

[Thinlómien]

I've also thought that people who lived in Dorwinion were Men! I just wonder is there any basis on that or have I just imagined it.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

There's a bit of additional speculation here, especially at the end:
=============================
Dorwinion

"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

In J. R. R. Tolkien's fictional universe of Middle-earth, Dorwinion or Dor-Winion, the Land of Wines, is a land which lay on the northwestern shores of the Sea of Rhûn.

Dorwinion was drawn at Tolkien's advice on Pauline Baynes' map of Middle-earth as lying at the end of the Carnen and Celduin, and in that position it has since appeared on other maps.

Dorwinion is mentioned in The Hobbit as the place where the special wine of the Elven King (Thranduil) comes from, and the barrels are returned by way of the Forest River to the Long Lake of Esgaroth.

It is also mentioned in the Narn i Chîn Húrin, where it was drunk in Thingol's halls of Menegroth. It is said there to lie in the Burning south, which might suggest it was a different 'Dorwinion', or may just have referred to the fact it came from the more southern lands of Rhovanion by way of the dwarf-road.

In Dorwinion was made a heady wine, which was strong enough to let even Elves get drunk and fall asleep.

Not much else is known about Dorwinion, and the name cannot easily be translated. It is not even known if the name is true Sindarin.

It has been suggested by Tolkienists that the name may not have been Sindarin at all, but come from an Avari or Nandorin tongue: if that is the case Dorwinion may have been the only Avari realm close to those areas of Middle-earth that Tolkien's stories take place. Certainly the element "Winion", apparently meaning "wine", has no probable origin in any known etymology. Support for the Elven origin of Dorwinion is that its population must have been Elvish, since it
was already well established while the Atanatári were still young.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorwinion"
====================

[Mithalwen]

The Lorien elves certainly would count as kinsfolk in the south and so (though not in the time of the Hobbit) would the elves who dwellt at Edhellond but that is an improbably long distance for commerce.

As for the burning south - well all things are relative and Rhun is considerably to the south of the location of the Narn i hin Hurin. If you think of Beliriand and the Shire representing Scandinavian / Celtic countries and Harad as (at least North) Africa then Rhun could be more mediterranean. I have a celtic complexion and find Spain far enough south to burn . The nature of the wine of Dorwinion gives a hint - heady and to be drunk from small bowls. this suggests a dessert wine, or a fortified wine like port or sherry rather than a say a light german riesling type.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

A good point about the dessert wine.
But another problem with Lorien is transport,
from Rhun across to the Anduin? Even without
The Necromancer/Sauron on both sides
transport seems very questionable, not even any
oliphaunts (or camels) around to go from
the River Running to the Anduin- even if the wine
didn't get too churned up on animals backs or carts.

[Mithalwen]

Erm I think that the Rhun stuff would go up the river running and the Lorien stuff would go up Anduin ... there is not necessarily cross traffick between Rhun and Lorien...

I have often wondered how the Elves of Lorien and Rivendell fed themselves let alone anyone else - I mean I know they don't perhaps need as much food as mortals but even so... I think there was a thread on it when I first joined ...

[Voralphion]

Lorien as much as it can seems to want to be separate and isolated from most of the outside world, especially men. Very few of them spoke the common tongue, and stories of Lorien in the outside world consisted of a perilous realm ruled by an elven witch. These facts do not seem to indicate a large export industry within Lorien comprising wine or other goods, especially ones that would go through the Laketown, a place inhabited by men. These to me seem to rule out the possibility of the southern elves being those of Lorien. The suggestion of it being Dorwinion by the Sea of Rhun seems highly plausible.

[Elu Ancalime]

Dorwinnion, if you look at 'The Great Journey' map of the Atlas of Middle-Earth, is placed closer toards the Second Sundering,(which is in the viscinity of the Carrock, Old Ford, etc.) as far as relation between the Second Sundering and The First Sundering at Cuivienen. It would make more sense there to be a backtrack of the Nandor/Silvan than the Avari moving West. After all, the Elves of Mirkwood backtracked northeasterly, so all any other elves would have to do is follow the Forest River down to the Celdiun and to the Sea of Rhun. Of course with that, any potential elves of Dorwinnion could just be migrants from Mirkwood around the start of the First Age. And anyway, most of the Elves that left at the Second Sundering settled in forests. And from what had already ahppened in history at this point was, elves lived in forests, this of course originating from the Wild Wood. So there was the Wild Wood, then thru Greenwood, and based on my reasoning, back to Greenwood. So there is a forest on the NE shore of the Inland Sea, correct? Well dorwinnion is next to that forest, isnt it? The fact that the elves stayed on the NW side of the Sea next to the forest might remind them of something. (COUGHWILDWOODCUIVIENENCOUGH) Maybe since they travelled east, they wanted to try and go back to Cuivienen, and either they thought the Inland Sea was Helcar, or they thought it was good enough. But either, if they did have the intention of renouncing the Journey, they would have returned to any original pre-Orome traditions. Thesis: Dorwinnion was originally a Silvan Elf realm

BUT

Who says there wern't other people(men,dwarves) as well?

As seen in Edhellond and Umbar, other races or divisions could and will move in, culturaly but not always intentionaly become dominant politically and populationwise. (take over, if you will) Also, other races/divisions will branch out/extend their territories. Edhellond was a branch of those who left the Great Journey at the Second Sundering, (possibly some from Lorien like what Nimrodel did, but in the same fashion anyway). They found a geographicaly benifiting and agriculturaly rich place to settle. You can see the relation of core realms to migratory outposts.
(Core realm--------------------------> Culturally and Politically Seprate Territory/realm
Numenor--->Umbar
Second Sundering(Nandor, Lorien)----->Edhellond

What happens in Umbar and EH is that a powerful realm, whether on a political decsiosion or on population impule, sends some people to a land that is not exactly next door, and really not to far out of reach.
Also, in EH, the 'founders', if you will, are more related to the Nandor. (Silvan stayed in the North, Nandor went slightly South, as far as the feifs of Gandor as the Atlas shows, meaning EH). Later after Nimrodel came South to Dol Amroth, word would have surely relayed back into Lorien about EH, since it was not too far away. Not exactly immeadiatly, though. Then Lorien and the Wilderland would have 'rediscovered' (possibly just discovered?) Edhellond. Then Im sure after the division of the Nandor faded, the culture would have turned into a Silvan elf haven. Thus EH was a migratory branch of the Northern elves of the Second Sundering, in which the culture turned from Nandor to Silvan.
Umbar was a militray fortress of Numenor. We can see that after Numenor ceased to exist, and its culture faded, rather was broken down into Gondor and Arnor culture, Umbar would have been an isolation of what once was. Now the Black Numenoreans(Kings men as we know them) hated the Exiles, so naturally didnt want to adopt their stlye of culture too much. So already we can see the relation of core--->territory.And not only did Numenorean culture wane at Umbar, but peoples of Harad (that we know to have many cultures and divisions not written by Tolkien) moved in. And from the 'charactar' of the Corsairs that basically represents the general style of what Umbar had become. Completley changed from a high and mighty wealthy Numenorean territory into a haven where you wont find a friendly face, and that has turned into a pirate-like (and with the Corsairs literally!) land. For anybody who has read RA Salvatore, Luskan . Buts lets not stray from the topic. What does this have to do with Dorwinnion?Thesis: Dorwinnion was originally a Silvan elf realm that was supplanted by some later peoples whether elf or not.
Since the maps in the LotR books show no physical features of Rhun, we know there is stuff there. How could at the very least, Easterling warriors live in an area that could be as large as 1,000 by 1,000 miles of land with nothing but, well, land!! And dont forget that fact not a lot of people travel there, not enough to make (or show) an accurate map. So since we dont know enough about a core realm, we can not elaborate on theculturally and politically seperate territory/realm. Now, we know the Easterlings were men, (assuming the word 'Easterlings' as the peoples who fught against Gondor, not anybody who lived in the East). And we know that Gror took his share of dwarves to the Iron Hills, which is adjacent to Rhun, and north of the Inland Sea. The Avari pretty much nurtered and nannyed Men.(taught them speech, etc). So an Elf-Man interaction is not impossible. And dorwinnion being more eastwardly, it makes it even more likley. Thesis: Men moving east interacted with Elves of Dorwinnion, and some/all settled instead of continuing. What about Dwarves? Well, a relationship between an elf and a dwarf is always fragile, so this isnt as likely. The fact that we know for sure dwarves were even close wasnt until Gror and Thror, and that was Thrid Age, when elf/dwarf friendships were out of style.(Im not even going to go into any of the unknown dwarf Fathers and knigdoms, there simply isnt enough evidence to support anything clearly) Now, the part that might bring a dwarf to Dorwinnion, is the mountainous region on the SW corner of the Inland sea. This area is described by many sources as a 'hilly region', but on the maps, if Tolkien wanted hill, we would have drwn hills. Clearly they look just like how the Misty Mountains were drawn(jagged mountains) If they were hills they would be similar to Emyen Muil and Carn Dum. So them being mountains, they probably had some good stuff in them a dwarf might want. I dont think the elves would have mined much (if any) in them. So the dwarves might have come by a map since when travelling from Khazad-dum to the Grey Mountains to Erebor/Iron hills you pass the Woodland realm and Lorien. However i dont even by my own reasoning. 1 The mountains arn't nessecarily part of Dorwinnion. Dorwinnion is the NW shore of the Inland Sea, not in the mountains, or in the forest. 2 Dwarf/Elf relationship in Third Age. 'Nuff said. 3 If there were dwarves directly in Dorwinnion, something so odd might have been mentioned with the description of the wines and such in The Hobbit. 4Dwarves would never settle in Dorwinnion anyway, they would have gone straight to the mountains, not on a river and a coastline! They would be mining, not wining.(although im sure they would not be opposed to drinking it, i dont think they would take wine over gold) Thesis: No party of dwarves interacted with Dorwinnion for any long period of time, and not in Thrid Age. Ruling out the Third age, and long periods of time, that dosn't leave much to be said for dwarves.
Back to the core-territory theory. Men now, I believe are the answer. The Avari dwindeled, faded, whatever, as long as you understand this:Thesis: A behind the Times culture or people will either dwindle in power, or be immersed into another culture. The mountain men/pukel men didnt have any adjacent culture to be adapted into, and the Black Numenoreans dissapeared into a conglomerate of Harad and Gondor. So stating that the Dowwinnion land was of sundered elves, we can see this relation: Thranduil's realm was never anything 'HUGE', so a fraction of that cannot be anything signifigant enough to survive on its own. After men settled in Dorwinnion, the elves taught them about wine and stuff, and after a while, some either left, possibly to pick up the westward movment, or the elven people in general just died out. Thesis: Men supplanted elves at Dorwinnion, sometime after The Hobbit, bu before TA 3001.
So what does this mean!? Why should I care!? you might ask.

Elves occupied Dorwinnion sometime after the Second Sundering, but before the beginning of the First Age.
Those elves were not west travelling Avari, but backtracking Silvan
Dorwinnion was politically and culturally sperate from Greenwood, whether eventually or from its beginning.
Dwarves never dealt with Dorwinnion.
Sometime, Men settled in Dorwinnion, and when the elves faded, the men were left.
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Well, anyway it took me about 2 hours to think about this and to type it. Thats what i came up with anyway. And as for the 'Burning South' deal, everything's realitive.

-Elu
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