Snow angels

[Frodo Baggins]

My dear Gothmog, I do not recall in the book Legolas actually walking ON the snow. Please if I am wrong point me in the right direction. The only walking atop snow is done in the movie.

Edit: Dude! I started another page.

[Lalwendë]

Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. 'The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow--an Elf.'
With that he sprang forth nimbly, and then Frodo noticed as if for the first time, though he had long known it, that the Elf had no boots, but wore only light shoes, as he always did, and his feet made little imprint in the snow.
'Farewell!' he said to Gandalf. 'I go to find the Sun!' Then swift as a runner over firm sand he shot away, and quickly overtaking the toiling men, with a wave of his hand he passed them, and sped into the distance, and vanished round the rocky turn.

Well technically he does not walk on the snow, instead he runs on it...

Maybe we shall have some real snow here in Yorkshire soon enough and then I can try out some new experiments...

[Gothmog]

So, my even dearer Frodo, old lad. I think the quote provide by Lalwende proves that Legolas did walk on the snow in the books. Unless you're being technical and calls it "running" on snow? But still, he should have moved at a moderate speed when talking to the others.

But can somebody please confirm my suspicion that Legolas hardly leaves any prints on grass either?

And Lalwende: I'm living like 3000 km north of you and I don't have any snow! But I promise you, as soon as those wonderful, white stars start falling, I'm going to try my best to run on the snow. Maybe if I go downhill...hmmm...... As I said earlier, is it possible that elves had a pair of huge feet the Tolkien forgot to mention?

[Frodo Baggins]

Ok Ok I concede, Legolas can walk on snow. But riddle me this. Can ALL elves walk on snow, or jsut some? We seem to be focusing on Legolas, but what of those such as Elrond the half elven and his 3/4 elven children?

And even more importantly, can they throw snowballs?

[Gothmog]

but what of those such as Elrond the half elven and his 3/4 elven children?

And what makes that question even more interesting is the Maia blood in Elrond. Can divine spirits like the maiar walk on snow? If they can, Elrond (being 1/16 maia, 3/8 man and 9/16 elf. Hope I got that right...) should have greater "snow-walking" abilities than Legolas. Or does the man-blood make him lose some of his skill?

[alatar]

Gothmog, if I had my books (which I don't) I would be looking in TTT for text regarding Legolas walking on grass. Or maybe at the end of FotR...somewhere it's stated that elves tread lightly.

And I will send snow if someone were to pay for shipping - will send freezing wind for free - though we may have to hurry as the weather is going to change yet again.

[Frodo Baggins]

Your proportions are correct, Gothmog. Although at 1/16 I would think the Maia dilute enough to be just this side of negligible. Elves like Galadriel, Celeborn, and Gildor seem to have more...what's the word I want, more power or "oomph" if you will than Elrond. (Described as an "Elf-friend" in The Hobbit.) Perhaps the humanity (whuch is nearly a full half) cancels out the Maia. But I shall leave Elven DNA to more expreienced minds.

BTW Gothmog, love the signature.

[Gothmog]

BTW Gothmog, love the signature.

Thank you! And I really mean it!

Now when HUGO is finished (a project mapping the human genome) maybe it's time for EUGO, the mapping of the elven genome? Do the elven genome contain the usual nucleic acids with G-T-A-C (guanine, thyamin, adenine and cytosine), or do they have more nucleotids? What do the elven DNA look like????

And Alatar, no need to send the freezing wind, we've got that already. Actually there was some snow today, but not enough to make any experiments. But it will come...

[Farael]

Well, here in the Winterpeg we are having a really unusual fall... as it has snowed, then it all melted, snowed about 20 cm. in one night and then melted for the most part (yet what remains is nasty ice). Still, as soon as it snows again, I'll give snowrunning a shot. I might not be the ideal subject as I'm 6' and about 185 pounds but there's one thing I do recall from previous winters.

If it snows and then the weather gets really really cold, the top layer of snow will somewhat freeze and you will be able to walk on it. That is, until you find a soft spot in which you will sink knee-deep on snow. Still, if I can walk in frozen snow, I would guess a much lighter and athetic elf should be able to run on any kinds of snow.

Also, I found this quote, but the topic has already been discussed... stil, for your enlightment and enjoyment,

Few animals are able to walk on the surface of water. One such rarity is basilisk, which lives in Central America and is seen below. On the sides of the toes of basilisk’s hind feet are flaps that enable them to splash water. These are rolled up when the animal walks on land. If the animal faces danger, it starts to run very fast on the surface of a river or a lake. Then the flaps on its hind feet are opened and thus more surface area is provided for it to run on water.

Found on a webpage, sadly I forgot to copy the name of the page as well.

Farael

[Lalwendë]

Only Legolas still stepped as lightly as ever, his feet hardly seeming to press the grass, leaving no footprints as he passed; but in the waybread of the Elves he found all the sustenance that he needed, and he could sleep, if sleep it could be called by Men, resting his mind in the strange paths of elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world.

Here is the bit about Legolas walking on the grass (from TT). This puzzles me a bit as surely most people leave no footprints walking on grass? It also amuses me as Legolas is like one of those people you get on group hikes who is completely tireless and urging everyone onwards, even though all they want to do is sit down for ten minutes and make a start on their sandwiches.

Maybe Legolas tires so little because as an Elf, his days and years are much longer and he has a different concept of time and distance, hence he may possess more inate stamina. This might also explain why he is able to tread so lightly that he doesn't leave footprints. It could also be that as an Elf he is not wholly 'of this world' and leaves little behind him as he passes through it.

The snow did not happen here (just lots of hard frost instead) so I have not yet had the chance to try out running on the snow, though when it does, as I live on a steep hill some running on the snow may happen involuntarily. And we have been promised a 'bad winter', our weather coming more often from the North rather than the West as is usual - something to do with the Azores Ridge apparently.

[Gothmog]

Great! The long sought quote. Thank you Lalwende!

This puzzles me a bit as surely most people leave no footprints walking on grass?

This can be discussed. It depends on how we define footprints. Of course our feet bends the grass straws, but there's no clear print visible. To us that is. Think on Aragorn for example, a Ranger of the North, great hunter and all. Don't you think he would have the skill to interpret those bent straws as a footprint? Besides, the level of print left depends on the grass. When I was in Scotland two years ago, we had a picnic (sp?) outside one of the many castles. The print we left when sitting in the grass was still visible an hour later! So I'd say that we all leave some sort of prints when walking in grass.

Farael:

That is, until you find a soft spot in which you will sink knee-deep on snow. Still, if I can walk in frozen snow, I would guess a much lighter and athetic elf should be able to run on any kinds of snow.

I know the feeling. Hate it... But back to topic: is elves lighter then humans? In that case, why? Hollow bones like birds? Or is this some sort of elven skill? Or the not-wholly-of-this-world-effect? Looks like we're back on square one where we started this discussion many posts back...

[Farael]

I don't think elves are any lighter than humans, just more graceful. Also, I'd believe they are less muscular and therefore lighter, but not because of some inherent quality, just because of their body build. I've been trying to run on snow, but I find that I step much heavier when I start runnning than when I'm walking... so I'm yet to figure out a way to gather up speed without falling through the top layer of snow. But I shall succeed, I still have at least four, probably five months of good snow to try my theory.

[Gothmog]

But if we assume that Legolas ability to walk on snow depends on his agility, his skill to walk softly, then he have to walk VERY softly to stop the laws of physic to do their work. It's true that you can walk on some snow (for example snow where the top layer has melted in the sun and later frozen again) but this was very new snow. And if it was "walkable" for Legolas due to his lesser muscle mass and softer steps, why couldn't the hobbits do the same thing? They must be much lighter than the men, maybe lighter then Legolas too. Plus they have large feet which makes the pressure against the surface they walk on less (P=F/A, pressure equals the force divided by the surface area).

I, too, believe that elves have a different body build than men, but I find it hard to believe that that would make such a big difference. I think it's a combination of the fact that they're more graceful and light and some sort of "gift" elves have. A passive skill which makes them tread this earth lighter than normal, mortal beings. Maybe because their not wholly of this world, they are in some minor way half-divine creatures, especially those elves that dwelt or dwelles in the West.

It's going to be an interesting winter. A wave of broken bones will spread thorugh the Downs when the snow comes for real with everybody trying different ways of getting enough speed to run on the surface of the snow

[Farael]

Good point, maybe I should try walking lightly rather than running... and we don't really know if the hobbits were able to do it, as they never tried.

Yet I guess the evidence is piling up towards some unnatural Elvish skill... maybe they are able to spread their weight around in such way as to take advantage of the whole surface area of their feet while humans and hobbits will lean heavily on the back or front end of their feet and therefore apply pressure concentrated on a single point rather than spread out?? But I'm just guessing here...

[Gothmog]

maybe they are able to spread their weight around in such way as to take advantage of the whole surface area of their feet while humans and hobbits will lean heavily on the back or front end of their feet and therefore apply pressure concentrated on a single point rather than spread out??

Possible, but I don't think that is enough. Take for example Legolas with the known weight of 60 kg. His feet measured around 0,1x0,3 m = 0,03 m2. Assuming that Midlle Earth has about the same gravity as our Earth, that would give us P=(60x10*)/0,03=20 000 N/m2. *= the gravity constant, which is about 9,8 but here 10 is used to simplify things as the ME-value is unknown. Now think of Boromir, who weighs 85 kg and has feet measures of 0,15x0,40. The pressure would be about 14 000 N/m2.

As you can see, the feet size is far more important that the weight and, assuming Boromir uses his whole foot, Boromir is actually less likely to go through the snow! To get a pressure as high as Legolas', his feet has to be smaller, for example 0,15x0,28 m.

***NOTE: All numbers regarding the characters weight is from their official hospital records that Elven Maids Weekly found when investigating the life of Legolas, se nr. 4, year 24 of the fourth age.***

***NOTE 2: If you find any errors in my calculations, I blame it all on being tired, not having done any physics in the last two years and Elven Maids Weekly for false information***

[Roa_Aoife]

I don't know how well this applies to Tolkien's Elves, but in general folklore and mythology regarding Elves, they are supposedly less substantial than humans, being more ethereal. This makes them very light, and they leave very little impression on the surfaces they come in contact with. The idea of Elves being small came from this- an Elf our size is light enough that one could easily lift him/her, and this was later recounted as them being lesser in staure rather than density.
In the more religious mindsets from the era of fairytales, Men are more dense becuase they were formed from dust, where as Elves were some form of fallen angel. In Tolkien speak, this places them closer to the Valar and the Ainur than Man.
In the same vein, I suppose Dwarves would be somewhat denser than Men.

So, from this, I would say it's not really something they do on purpose, or a skill of any kind, but a natural occurence. Could they make snow angels? Probably, but it would be very shallow. A bonus would be that they wouldn't ruin it by standing up.

EDIT: Also, the core of the Tolkien Elves have a core of flame, which would also make them less dense.

[Farael]

I know this is all but dead, yet today we got some snow so tomorrow I will probably try out walking in the snow and not sinking on it. For the time being I think I will try running on the snow starting on the snow itself, gathering speed outside the snow and then going in the snow, walking normaly in the snow and walking carefully in the snow. Anyone has more ideas of what I should try?

[Roa_Aoife]

Be less dense than the snow?

[alatar]

Back in my college days, when I had more adrenaline than sense, I decided on one boring day that I would attempt running in snow barefoot. The temperature was about zero degrees Celsius, there was little wind and the sun was in the sky. In the apartment complex in which we lived there was a courtyard that was boxed by the apartments, and there was a toppled snowman sitting in the middle about 25 yards out that we had built some days before.

My plan was to run out to the snowman, stand on top of the body, then run back. I wore tropical shorts and a flannel shirt to...ahhh...keep me warm and stylish.

Note: don't do this, it could be fatal.

Well, I ran out and the first thing that I noticed was that the snow felt like sand to the touch, and instead of being cold, which I would have expected, it actually burned. I made it out to the snowman without incident, but on the way back I started to feel very sluggish. By the time I made it to the warmth of the apartment my heart was racing so fast (trying to compensate for my stupidity) that I was sure that it was going to exit my chest.

It took over 30 minutes to recover, and at the time I was pretty fit.

So whatever you do, think it out first. You're not an elf, you're going to feel cold and you will sink.

And elves did not wear bunny slippers.

Note that the attached image shows when I at least had sense enough to wear boots.

[Farael]

Don't worry Alatar but in this city you learn to respect the cold, as it can get pretty bad. Although I have to admit that
-Playing snow football I didn't realize my fingers were turning blue, although I still had sensitivity on them and they did not feel sluggish or anything
-I went toboganning when it was -50 C with the windchill. The first five minutes were alright, but after another five I had to run back inside because I Was freezing

Yet my plans were to try running on the snow wearing boots!! my excuse for that would have been that it'd give me a larger surface area and therefore there'd be less pressure on the snow.

I'll write again later with the results.... although odds are, I'll just make a lot of tracks in the snow.

Be less dense than the snow?

I'll take that as an attempt at humour rather than offense. But please, as written words do not convey expressions very clearly, make sure you clarify next time.

[Farael]

Well, after a while of fun experimentation (wish Science was just as fun) I have found that.... I cannot walk on snow without leaving a BIG imprint. No matter if I run, walk, starting from the snow or from a surface next to it, it won't make much of a difference. If anything, I have found that running from a hard surface into snow increases the chance of winding up with a facefull of snow I felt like such a kid.

[alatar]

I just walked through the thread again, and what an interesting read!

Just some thoughts:

• Do elves have some helium-producing gland that offsets their weight?

• Elves and humans have to be somewhat similar as they can create offspring (I think that that is the definition of a species).

• Dancing with an elf would be cool. Not only would they be the best 'moonwalkers,' but if they stepped on your toes, you'd never know.

• Tom Bombadil seemingly wards off rain by waving his hands. Do elves wave their hands downward and sing songs of lightness?

• The build up of lactic acid within your muscles is what makes you tired. Elves have better enzymes.

• Anyone who cuts grass knows that you leave a trail - you do, not just the mower.

Well, as the local forecast includes possible snow, I must go and perform my civic duty, which is to act like a few inches of snow falling in winter constitutes the end of civilization/the apocalypse. Snow?!? In winter? When did that ever start?

After disregarding all traffic laws and throwing common courtesy out the window, I will buy up all the bread, milk and toilet tissue that I can hoard then retreat slowly back to my domicile (as everyone else is out doing the same thing, and so the dry roads are clogged with panicked shoppers). For those who don't understand this behavior, you must understand that the news media (supported by many grocery chains) makes sure that each snowfall is an event, whether snow falls or not. And as this might just be the big one, I might not be able to go shopping for...24 hours at the most. The way some people react you'd think that cannibalism would set in after 4 hours without shopping.

But more likely, if snow does come, I will take advantage of the moment and go outside with the kids to make snow angels, as that's what life's all about.

Thanks for posting.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by alatar

Do elves have some helium-producing gland that offsets their weight?

Makes you think. If you snogged an Elf would you have a really squeaky high pitched voice for a while afterwards? Did anyone warn Aragorn?

[Gothmog]

Elves and humans have to be somewhat similar as they can create offspring (I think that that is the definition of a species).

Come to think about it, as elves and men can create offspring that in their turn can create offspring, that means elves and men are the SAME species! According to the biological definition of the term at least. Makes you think...

And I, too, have tried walking on the snow up here. Without success of course. I still think that elves had gigantic feet that made it possible for them to walk on snow. Like small skis or snowshoes!

[The Saucepan Man]

Strange, but this thread makes me feel somehow abnormal for not trying to walk on snow to see if I can avoid making an impression because I instinctively know that I cannot ...

[Farael]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Strange, but this thread makes me feel somehow abnormal for not trying to walk on snow to see if I can avoid making an impression because I instinctively know that I cannot ...

Oh, come on ... it's a lot of fun!! you've GOT to give it a try... we know thus far that Farael nor Gothmog can walk/run on snow... how about The Saucepan Man?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Farael

... how about The Saucepan Man?

What, with all these pots 'n pans all over?

Legolas I ain't.

[Lalwendë]

Finally, some snow. As you will see, Legolas does slightly sink into the snow, but he does not sink all the way down. This would suggest that he could make a snow angel (or would it be a snow Ainur? oooh, can of worms...), as he would no doubt leave some impression. However, we caught him at rest here (I think he saw the cat so he had to get his white knife at the ready, or perhaps he was just waiting in vain for the bus) so the question of how much impression his feet leave when he is moving remains unanswered.

[Farael]

Thanks Lalwendë for bringing up this thread!!! I wanted to as I have some new developments. On Christmas day, my friends and I had a snow-football game... the field was REALLY covered in snow (probably over a foot) which messed up the game, BUT I managed to make a few interesting findings.

First of all, it should be noted that the weather has been unusually warm (around zero degrees Celsious or 32 Farenheit) and so the snow had melted slightly and frozen again, therefore being unusually hard.

The first thing we thought was "hey, let's run around and trample down the snow!" and so we did. I will always sink on snow but specially if I run. Soon enough I had snow up to my knees, I don't know how I managed that because the snow was not THAT high.

Then, after giving up on the running idea, we just stood around passing the football until everyone came. Guess what? I could actually stand on top of the snow for a couple of seconds. It wasn't for too long and it wasn't recently fallen snow, but I could stand on top of it. Then it broke and I fell through as nature will have me do every time.

Still, if you assume that elves are perhaps lighter than men, they might have been able to stay on top of the snow... if you add HUGE, paddle-like feet to these elves, they will most definetly do. Think about gigant duck feet

Does Tolkien ever talk about elvish FEET? if not, we should assume the duck-feet theory to be, at best, a good explanation.

[Celuien]

A new experiment!

I have spent the morning attempting to clear the driveway - I'm still only half done - and during the clearing I was able to walk on the snow while leaving only a 1/4 inch footprint. This worked for walking with a heavy shoveful of snow and while running across the surface.

Data:

Snow depth - approximately 3.5 inches
Snow type - very heavy and dense, but neither frozen over nor melting

Unfortunately, in an area of lighter snow, I was unable to remain on the surface.

[Roa_Aoife]

Wow, I'd forgotten about this thread.

I contend that it's the spirit of flame. Hot air rises, after all. That's why we have hot air balloons.

[Rikae]

Funny to see this; I was just thinking of Legolas a couple days ago when I set out across the quad (in about 6-8 inches of dense, but not frozen, snow), and found that for about 2/3 of the steps my feet stayed on the snow's surface. I actually tested a few different types of steps (to the amusement of all in the vicinity, no doubt) and found:
1) Walking faster makes sinking more likely.
2) Trying to step lightly makes sinking more likely.
3) Denser snow is a slightly bluer shade of white - so perhaps elvish vision and thousands of years of experience have something to do with it?
4) Heel-to-toe steps sink less often than toe-to-heel.

Conclusion: it's a learned skill, and elves can make snow angels.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Conclusion: it's a learned skill, and elves can make snow angels.

Glad to see that you and Celuien have made in-depth analyses. Presently we have ice-encrusted snow, which you'd think would add to my chances of having a Legolas experience, but, alas, all that it does is creep out the dog as every footfall kerthunks! right through.

[Farael]

Ahhh lovely to see this thread still living.

With all the snow we've gotten this winter, I should try it out, but we've been having EXTREMELY cold weather. It's better now (about -20 C or -8 F) but for a while it was lower than -40 (which is the same C and F) and that's too cold to be outside, unless you MUST.

Prediction: Farael will sink right through the snow which is probably higher than the rim of his boot, and as he tries to get his foot out of the snow the snow will get inside the boot and he'll have to run back inside before his toes freeze.

[alatar]

Note that, if you walk on a light dusting of granular snow (not the wet sticky kind) that sits atop concrete or other hard surface, in a moderate to strong wind, you will leave no (or almost no) footprints. Maybe Legolas, and the elves entire, just knew where to place their slippers.

[Folwren]

Well, now, we had an ice/snow storm a couple months ago, and everyone, including horses, could walk on top of it all without leaving any marks at all!

[Bêthberry]

Good to see such a sweet thread bumped up and maintained with light-hearted faire. It would be a grim bit of northern humour to see a jaundiced post consider the gravity, specific or otherwise, of yellow snow.

[alatar]

I'm restraining myself...and just how would a jaundiced eye perceive yellow snow? White and untainted? Anyone with some lemonade and a pair of appropriately tinted glasses/goggles can put this too to the test.

Speaking of yellow eyes, do we know the color variation of the elven eye, and just what spectra are perceptible from the same? Elves see things that remain unseen to the human eye (moon letters, portends, running orcs at great distances, etc). Do elves see the thicker patches of snow, and again, just know where to step? Do they guard this secret to make themselves more interesting?

[Celuien]

While yellow snow's specific gravity and density may be higher than that of the surrounding white snow, I suspect that its other properties make it unsuitable for travel or snow angels. I believe that I am fortunate in having the ability to distinguish yellow from white easily.

Roa's theory regarding the Elven spirit of flame suggests a new possibility. What if the Elves are able to slightly melt the snow as they stand on it, then allow it to refreeze in the cold temperatures? They could then skate on a film of ice (as I saw a few enthusiastic skaters at the edge of a nearby horse farm doing yesterday). I know that I can't tell the difference between frozen and non-frozen snow visually unless I look very closely. Perhaps the difference produced by this sleight-of-hand (or, more accuratelym slight of foot) was imperceptible to the non-Elf members of the Fellowship.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Do elves see the thicker patches of snow, and again, just know where to step? Do they guard this secret to make themselves more interesting?

Well, if this be so, it suggests that their art or 'magic' leads them into a wee bit of deception, a quality which was recently attributed to the Ring on one of our serious threads. This could be interesting to explore as elves exist in the same dimension, simultaneously as they exist in ours, as that of the Ringwraiths. (Yes, there is a Tolkien comment about this, which I posted elsewhere, but my books are not at hand at the moment.) Maybe elves do have a different density than humans or hobbits?

Is Legolas' ability to walk upon snow (not water, now, snow), part of elven knowledge of the dark dimension? This is a very different take from that of Roa and Celuien's thoughts on the warming condition of the secret flame.

Originally Posted by Celuien

What if the Elves are able to slightly melt the snow as they stand on it, then allow it to refreeze in the cold temperatures? They could then skate on a film of ice (as I saw a few enthusiastic skaters at the edge of a nearby horse farm doing yesterday). I know that I can't tell the difference between frozen and non-frozen snow visually unless I look very closely. Perhaps the difference produced by this sleight-of-hand (or, more accuratelym slight of foot) was imperceptible to the non-Elf members of the Fellowship.

Now this raises in interesting possibility. Could elves have invented the game of hockey? Note, I am assuming that Celuien's friends at the horse farm were engaging in a game of shinny, but perhaps elves would limit themselves to the more elegant form of freeskate or figure skating. Not that Legolas would have been wearing blades on his slippers, although if swords could be fired and tempered to great sharpness, there's no reason why elves wouldn't have come up with the idea of attaching them to their slippers.

I seem to be developing two different lines of arguments here. The topic is so slippery.