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Old 02-02-2001, 09:20 PM   #81
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Hmm

But is that something really there? Or has it been conjured up in the minds of others?

Actually, I'm getting tired of rambling on like this, so I'll stop. Maybe <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-02-2001, 09:28 PM   #82
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Re: Hmm

This reminds me far too much of philosophy class. No that that's a bad thing to be reminded of -- two hours a week of doing nothing but talking is always a good thing. Especially when doing so gets you an A on your report... <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-02-2001, 10:22 PM   #83
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Hmm

If I had a Philosophy Class I'd ask a senseless Philosophical existence question and let the teacher ramble for the whole lesson. *sigh* If only...

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Old 02-03-2001, 08:44 AM   #84
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Re: Hmm

Yeah, philosophy is interesting. But current affairs is better. Way better! <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>
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Old 02-03-2001, 02:04 PM   #85
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Re: Hmm

He exists in our minds, therefore he exists. If he did not exist in our minds, then he could either exist or not exist. But as long as something is in our minds, it exists for sure.

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Old 02-03-2001, 03:50 PM   #86
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Philosophy and Confusing Posts

Hmm. Current affairs are more interesting, but it's easier often to ramble on about philosophy, just like D did just then. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> Normally I'd try and refute that with some smart comment but I promised I'd stop rambling. Maybe I should finish it all by quoting Goldberry:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Tom Is.&quot;<hr></blockquote>

- enep</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000041>enep</A> at: 2/3/01 11:33:09 pm
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Old 02-03-2001, 10:05 PM   #87
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Re: Philosophy and Confusing Posts

I quite agree with Goldberry. Tom is. Not 'is Tom'.

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Old 02-03-2001, 11:06 PM   #88
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Re: Philosophy and Confusing Posts

I'm going to get stuck into this for once. I've never done it before because I got sick of the countless threads entitled 'Who is Tom Bombadil?'

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'He has been a moss gatherer; and I have been a stone doomed to rolling.'<hr></blockquote>

Gandalf is a Maia; if he says this, it could mean that Tom is one too. It suggests that they have something in common.

Goldberry is a Maia, a lesser spirit of Ulmo. Why would she marry Tom if he was not one also?

And what else could he be? Those theories about embodiements of Arda and earthly forms of Illuvitar are all very well, but really, they are impossible. That he crept into Arda from the Void in the beginning is also unsatisfactory. No one else is reputed as to have done so.
And people that are content with the phrase 'Tom is' are avoiding the question. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

I'm going to get my head bitten of for this, I know, but I'll say it anyway. Bombadil is a Maia. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-04-2001, 12:32 AM   #89
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Back to the topic.

Okay everyone, back to the topic! <img src=wink.gif ALT="">
We weren't really avoiding the question Gwaihir. We were on a different plane altogether. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>
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Old 02-04-2001, 12:34 AM   #90
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Re: Philosophy and Confusing Posts

No! Gandalf is not talking about things that he and Tom have in common, he is talking about how they are different. An African Violet tends to stay in one place (gathering moss, perhaps) and a robin flies about much of the time (doomed to roll, as it were), are they part of the same order?

Goldberry would seem to be a Maia, but I really don't know what she is. If she is a Maia, which she probably is, it wouldn't be the first time one married someone that isn't. Remember Melian?

&quot;No one else is reputed as to have done so.&quot; What about Ungoliant?

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Old 02-04-2001, 12:37 AM   #91
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Hmm

I won't bite your head off Gwaihir all though I would like to point out something...Goldberry is a Maia, I believe that, but when you say
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gwaihir: &quot;Goldberry is a Maia, a lesser spirit of Ulmo. Why would she marry Tom if he was not one also?<hr></blockquote>
I disagree. Melian married Thingol. It may be the only Maia-Elder relationship, but it does dispute that point you make.

Personally, I think we should end the debate once and for all by remembering Goldberry. Tom Is. That is all. He is best left as he is; a jolly little fellow with Yellow Boots and a Blue Jacket.

PS, we weren't really avoiding the question. We were debating the philosophical grounds on which Tom stands <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-04-2001, 12:48 AM   #92
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Re: Hmm

Oh no e. Gwaihir won't let you get away with 'avoiding the question' with 'Tom is.'. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">
Though personally I agree. Tolkien didn't want Tom typecast. He wanted him to remain an enigma. I think i've already posted a lot of posts along these lines here. But it never works. Carry on debating ppl. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-04-2001, 02:09 AM   #93
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Tom Is

Yes, I don't think Tom Is is going to work. I agree though, Tolkien wanted Tom to be as he is. But debating is ok. It's funny too, especially when people don't agree. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">


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Old 02-04-2001, 02:51 AM   #94
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Re: Tom Is

I am no maia, i can tell you that for sure.<img src=wink.gif ALT=""> I always come back to the same piece of evidence when saying that Tom isn't a maia. If Melkor was the first ainu to enter Arda, which it is stated that he was, then Tom could not be a maia, because Tom was here before the Dark Lord came, before the mountains, etc. You could dispute that Melkor wasn't a dark lord in the beginning, I guess, but mountains and so on were all made from the get go, so unless Tom is either Melkor or Manwe then he isn't an ainu. Therefore he is either the embodiment of Ea/Arda, or he is another being sent be Eru(similar to the aunur, but not of their order), it does say there were others.

I really liked Gilthalion's post on Tom being one of the Fathers of Men, from Arda Unmarred, then he is fatherless, but not the oldest. Oh well.

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Old 02-04-2001, 05:07 AM   #95
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hey durelen do u have msn messenger?

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Old 02-04-2001, 11:56 AM   #96
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: message

Re: Nine Nazguls, no i do not, I have AIM. For some silly reason my university will charge us to use most other internet chats, like irc, ICQ and so on, I haven't even heard of MSN messenger, but I am sure it is an extra service for the university.

Re: burrahobbit, about Ungoliant, aree you speaking of the theory that she isn't a maia and could really be of the darkness?

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Old 02-04-2001, 02:32 PM   #97
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: message

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. But I don't think it would be best to say &quot;of the darkness&quot;. &quot;From the darkness&quot; would probably be better, or perhaps &quot;from outside&quot; as darkness may make people think of evil when it's just dark.

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Old 02-05-2001, 04:48 AM   #98
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Gwaihir, far from biting your head off , I am in deep sympathy w/ you, although { as has prob, been mentioned 2,345 x's in this truly expansive,comprehensive and ... well to truly name it I would have to repeat all the posts. Hoom ! HOOM!} thread JRRT dismisses the Maia idea in the letters. I have it ratherdeeply in my brain though . although as i havn't been following the thread [I finally decided I had to see exactlywhat was going on 100+ posts later !] I will have to go back and check out Gilthalion's unfallen Man idea, I will give thattop marks for originality at least.

back to my cave <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 02-05-2001, 07:54 AM   #99
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Goldberry and tom?

where Goldberry and tom realy maried i may be wrong but i got the impression she was more like a relation comming to live with him.(not that they were related it is just that comparusin)were does it say they were maried?

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Old 02-05-2001, 08:36 AM   #100
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Goldberry and tom?

I just realized that Gil's idea holds even more water than I before thought. Ok, I said that men weren't around before the darkness came, this is true, but it is a technicality. Men were made, along with elves, when Ea was first created(before the ainur came), maybe Tom was just stating this. I think he would do something like that too.
Of course this doesn't explain how the elves new him as being older than they.

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Old 02-05-2001, 09:32 AM   #101
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Goldberry and tom?

Haven't been following this thread recently, so I just caught up and have a few comments.

Durelen - Tom says that he was in ME &quot;before the Dark Lord&quot;, but he doesn't say which one. Keep in mind that during the time of LoTR, the Dark Lord that everyone was focusing upon was Sauron, not Melkor. Also, mountains, etc. were not &quot;made from the get go&quot;. Arda was unformed when it was created. Re: Gilthalion's theory that Tom is one of the Fathers of Men before Arda Marred, I agree it is original, but : (1) Tom appears to be somewhat <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> long-lived for a man; (2) Arda began to be &quot;marred&quot; from the moment Melkor disrupted the Music so Arda Unmarred has never existed; and (3) the Fathers of Men did not wake up anywhere near early enough.

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Old 02-05-2001, 10:54 AM   #102
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Goldberry and tom?

I imagine the prof would be highly amused by threads like this one (and especially this particular one), and the need of so many of his fans to nail down the question of what Tom is and neatly classify him:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I don't think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it.<hr></blockquote>Gilthalion's idea may have some merit, though in an allegorical rather than a literal sense. Wait! Before a hue and cry is raised at the sight of the word &quot;allegory&quot;, consider more of the prof's words from Letters:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I do not mean him to be an allegory or I should not have given him so particular, individual, and ridiculous a name but 'allegory' is the only mode of exhibiting certain functions: he is then an 'allegory', or an exemplar, a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture.<hr></blockquote>

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 2/5/01 11:58:07 am
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Old 02-05-2001, 11:29 AM   #103
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Goldberry and tom?

That is very interesting MU, in which letter did you find that tasty morsel of info.?

Mithadan, I am sorry, I spoke incorrectly, what I mean to say #1 was that Arda was ever pure, but that Men were at one time not corrupted by Melkor. What I meant to say #2 was that the Mountains and such were formed as soon as Ainur first got there, not necessarily at the &quot;get go&quot; but close enough.

The rebuttal. Tom appears somewhat old to be a man, true, but if I am defending Gil's idea(not sure if I am yet<img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ) then I would point out the fact that before Melkor got to Men, it was speculated that they were immortal(or very long lived, i.e. ents maybe) Arda was marred from the beginning, I have nothing to say about that. I do howver have something to say about Men not awaking early enough. Men existed, they just weren't awakened, so technically you could say(if he was a man) that he was around since before the Ainur came into Arda.

A side note. I am not saying that Gilthalion's theory is a correct one. All I am saying is that it is more believable to me than Bombadil being an ainu. I personally feel Bombadil would be another form of spirit sent to Ea by Eru as something of an ambassador. Being that no one has rule over him or his land, he lives on &quot;International soil&quot;, like a consulate would. And he has no power over anything else but himself, his land and everything that resides on it.

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Old 02-05-2001, 11:33 AM   #104
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Goldberry and tom?

True enough, Tom can't literally be one of the Fathers of Men, who woke A.D. (After Darkness).

I don't have LOTR in front of me. Did Tom describe something of his first days? Could he have been an exception, awakened B.D. (Before Darkness), and not &quot;Falling&quot; as all else did from the creation Eru intended?

If Tom is allegorically Adam Unfallen, the letter in the last post is more grist for that mill.

Consider that Adam originally (even before Eve) set to the task of naming the various beasts, and tending the Garden (not nearly as difficult as my backyard!).

His relationship with Nature changes dramatically with the Fall. No longer is he the Natural Scientist, studying Nature for its own sake, he becomes the exploiter of a Nature no longer perfect for him. The beasts feared him and the land gave its fruits reluctantly.

Bombadil, on the other hand, shows signs of age in the lines of his face, but is otherwise youthful and the complete Master of flora and fauna in his wild domain. He does not scratch a hard living from the ground. (Though I think I do recall a garden patch?)

I think a decent case can be made for Tom = Adam Unfallen, but not a conclusive one.

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Old 02-05-2001, 11:42 AM   #105
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Goldberry and tom?

D, both quotes are from #153.

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Old 02-05-2001, 11:59 AM   #106
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Imagine a word full of T.B.'s !!!
non-sense rhyming being the prefereed method of communication.

I see why some have postulated that the fall was a necessary part of the plan.
I love Bombadil but entire villages and countries of his like would be somewhat like a benevolent asylum<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> .

great tie -in w/ the letter mr.U. Those letters will cetainly be required reading for any Bachelors level degree in the Legendarium.

I think Gilthalions idea [after it has been worked over by a couple hundred more posts or so] may be as close as we can get to a paradoxical non-resolution.


lindil

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Old 02-05-2001, 12:16 PM   #107
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Bombadillo

Ring ding-a-dol!
Hey merry ho!
O snappy as a five-point poll!
O tireless as old Withywindle!
Nonsense rhymes
aren't preferred?
Dear merry dot dol lindil?!
Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?


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</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 2/5/01 1:17:32 pm
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Old 02-05-2001, 12:44 PM   #108
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> an ode to polls [not underhillo]


Hey come a pollavaultin,
stinkin up thedowns-o
go backo where ye belong
and trouble the wights no more-o
your five pronged head will soon be dead
and no more will you be seen-o
so disappear and come not near
with lame-o sounding-bite-o's


pretty<img src=redface.gif ALT=""> I know.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 2/6/01 10:31:27 am
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Old 02-05-2001, 03:21 PM   #109
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: underhillo

You two are just ridiculous<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> I like this theory having no backing whatsoever and actually making us take a real look at it.

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Old 02-05-2001, 03:57 PM   #110
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Re: underhillo

Especially where we all know that Tom is really Treebeard. Evidence: (1) you never see them together; (2) both love forests; (3) both have power over trees; and (4) both are ELDEST! Ha! I've figured it out, the great mystery of our time! Where's my agent? Talk show circuit here I come!

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Old 02-05-2001, 04:45 PM   #111
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Re: underhillo

Now I kind of wish the poll feature was back. This is perfect poll material!

Which is your favorite Bombadilloism?

&quot;Hey now! merry dot!&quot;

&quot;Hey! Come merry dot! derry dol! My darling!&quot;

&quot;Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!&quot;

&quot;Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!&quot;

&quot;Hey! now! Come hoy now!&quot;

Only a true Tolkien afficianado can appreciate the fine but important distinctions between the Master's various phrasings.

Hmm... perhaps I'll start a new thread on the implications of Bombadil's rhyme, &quot;None has ever caught him yet, for Tom, he is the master: His songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.&quot; Bombadil as the first rapper to dis all the other sucka MCs?

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Old 02-05-2001, 10:57 PM   #112
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Re: underhillo

I like the hey dol merry dol ring a ding dillo, but I am going to go with the Tom Bombadillo, that is truly poetry in the most extreme sense.

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Old 02-06-2001, 03:19 AM   #113
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Hmm

How much you miss in two days. &quot;Hey dol, merry do, ring a dong dillo!&quot; Was always my favourite. I've never been sure why though, it always sounded better. Plus it's so silly it reminds me of Tom <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-06-2001, 06:04 AM   #114
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Re: Hmm

Hmmm.....I think I'd go with Tom Bombadillo too. It has a nice ring to it. And it's very, very T.B. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-09-2001, 05:08 PM   #115
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Tom Bomadil

Uhh, if he was there first and is left an enigma, my question is has anyone considered him to be a mixture of everything. He like Sauron has power over the ring. Is eternal like the elves and others, he looks akin to a dwarf and a hobbit, is like a man, and many other things...I say he is all of the races of M.E. also his power over the Trees comes from the Ents.

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Old 02-09-2001, 06:37 PM   #116
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Hiya!

Welcome, TC Legolas! That sounds like a Premier League club name. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> If I understand correctly, you take Tom to be a concoction of everything in ME, that is, say, an embodiment of Arda and everything in it?

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Old 02-09-2001, 07:30 PM   #117
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Re: Hiya!

Tom is like a Rainbow

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Old 02-10-2001, 01:46 AM   #118
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Re: Hiya!

&quot;And all the different colours make him more unique and beautiful than a single colour could ever be.&quot;
Naah, that sounds more like a chameleon or something. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>
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Old 02-10-2001, 07:52 AM   #119
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Re: Hiya!

Tom is Tom. Isn't that enough?<img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"> <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

I like the mixture description, but he's more of a melting pot or salad than a rainbow. Rainbows are too orderly and distant.

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Old 02-10-2001, 08:56 AM   #120
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Re: Hiya!

Good God Kay, Tom is Tom will never be enough for well over half the Tolkien fans in the world. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> More's the pity.

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