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02-19-2004, 09:44 PM | #1 | |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: idly sitting on a dock in Mithlond
Posts: 19
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Sauron and the palantir
Around T.A. 1980, the Nazgul took Minas Ithil, which housed a palantir, which was subsequently taken by Sauron. We know that Sauron used the seeing-stone until his demise, and communicated directly with those who looked into other seeing-stones, such as Denethor, Saruman and Pippin.
My question is that since Sauron was extremely powerful, was only he able to communicate or speak with others through the palantiri? For example, before the Ithil-stone was taken, were the Numenoreans who used the stones able to have a long distance conversation with one another? Quote:
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**~You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?" --- George Bernard Shaw~** |
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02-20-2004, 02:49 AM | #2 |
Essence of Darkness
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
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Yes, actually the answer to your question can be found in UT.
'Alone the palantiri could only "see": they did not transmit sound.... But when another mind occupied a Stone in accord, thought could be "transferred" (recieved as "speech") and visions of the things in the mind of the surveyor of one Stone could be seen by the other surveyor.... 'Two persons, each using a Stone "in accord" with the other, could converse, but not by sound, which the Stones did not transmit. Looking one at the other they would exchange "thought" -- not their full or true thought, or their intentions, but "silent speech", the thoughts they wished to transmit (already formalized in linguistic form in their minds or actually spoken aloud), which would be recieved by their respondents and of course immediately transformed into "speech", and only reportable as such.' |
02-20-2004, 04:04 AM | #3 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Bay of Eldanna
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Imbey, Another quote regarding the Palantiri from Unfinished Tales which might be useful is this:
UT P.403- Quote:
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'…Avallónë, the haven of the Eldar upon Eressëa, easternmost of the Undying Lands, and thence at times the Firstborn still would come sailing to Númenor in oarless boats, as white birds flying from the sunset…' |
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02-20-2004, 05:59 AM | #4 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: idly sitting on a dock in Mithlond
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Thank you Gwairhir, for your response. I suppose this is just another reason why I need to go buy and read UT and the LT, since it seems there is a lot of information I'm missing with just LotR and the Sil. Thanks again.
Nu! Thank you, for the UT quote. I'm really sorry about the whole PM thing, it keeps saying I've 'reached my quota' and am unable to recieve more. I deleted all of my messages, so hopefully now it will work.
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**~You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?" --- George Bernard Shaw~** |
02-20-2004, 10:56 PM | #5 |
Guest
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My understanding of the palantiri is that anyone could use them to communicate with someone at the other end of the line, so to speak; to see far and wide where one desired is what required a strong will. The Numenoreans were noted for their strong will and keen intellect, at least in the better days of the 2nd Age, so several of them may have been able to use a stone in solitary pursuit of information.
I learned something interesting while refreshing my memory among my source references--the Noldor made a master stone that was kept in the Tower of Avallone. This would mean that the Valar had their own means of keeping up with current events in ME. Maybe that's how they were able to see Gandalf after his Balrog battle, fix him and send him back so Gwaihir could pick him up and take him to Lothlorien! Hmmm . . . if the Valar could see what occurred in ME . . . ah, but that's another thread for another day! Also, none of this came from UTs. I, too, will be doing a more thorough reading of that once I'm done with The Letters of . . . . |
02-21-2004, 07:58 AM | #6 | |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: idly sitting on a dock in Mithlond
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Thanks for your response, Dininzilielen. I just read something on that as well. I believe it was in the Silmarillion, I can't quite remember though. Arnor gave one of its three palantiri to the Elves, who placed it in the tallest tower of the Tower Hills, Elostirion. Since it was near the coast, Elendil was said to go there and look across the Sea to the tower you mentioned, the Tower of Avallone in Valinor, and to the Sea where Numenor once stood.
Quote:
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**~You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?" --- George Bernard Shaw~** |
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02-21-2004, 09:45 AM | #7 |
Deathless Sun
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The Valar probably had other ways of checking up on Middle-earth. I don't think that they used the master palantir. Perhaps that was used by the Elven refugees from Middle-earth to periodically look back upon their home to see how things were going. I'm sure that they still would have cared about their loved ones who had remained, and would have wanted to periodically check back on what they were doing and how they were.
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But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. |
02-21-2004, 11:08 AM | #8 | |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Troll's larder
Posts: 195
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Quote:
Gee, some questions though: Did Feanor made those stones? Or were they made by Celebrimbor? Oh, and why didn't Gandalf look into the stone, but handed it instead to Aragorn? Isn't Gandalf more powerful than Aragorn? I know that the Palantir belonged to the Heirs of Elendil... but then, considering that Aragorn showed himself to Sauron anyway, the risk of revealing their plans to Sauron is already there. Besides, Sauron is likely to have already known of the return of Gandalf, so there wasn't much of the risk, right? |
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02-21-2004, 02:33 PM | #9 | ||
Spectre of Decay
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Some questions answered
Gandalf says himself why he did not use the Palantír:
Quote:
Quote:
Ownership of an object is an important theme in myth, the rightful owner often having more power over an object than any other. Here Aragorn has the right to use the Palantír, whereas Sauron as thief and usurper does not. This is enough to tip the balance in the favour of the owner, although it is still a close-run battle. Gandalf again fears his ability to defeat Sauron, as he did in Valinor when first the Istari were gathered, but this could be an example of humility. Often those who feel inadequate to a challenge are those who are best suited to succeed in Tolkien's world. Certainly if Gandalf even thought that he still had a chance of remaining hidden and therefore leaving a factor out of his enemy's calculations, he was right to be cautious. As it turned out, Aragorn's use of the Stone led almost directly to the attack on Minas Tirith, which emptied Minas Morgul of most of its garrison just as Frodo, Sam and Gollum were trying to pass it. Coincidence upon coincidence. The index to the Silmarillion describes the palantíri as the work of Fëanor, and the corresponding passage reads: "...and other crystals he made also, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with the eyes of the eagles of Manwë." I hope that's cleared a few things up.
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Man kenuva métim' andúne? Last edited by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh; 02-21-2004 at 02:44 PM. |
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02-21-2004, 03:50 PM | #10 |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Ephel Duath
Posts: 115
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In the various writings about the Palantiri in the UT, in some instances there is a mention of an eighth Master Stone In Tol Eressëa, but in others there isn't. It's not quite clear what JRRT's final decision was on this issue.
It may be that Sauron wasn't able to completely control the Stone to gather military intelligence precisely because he wasn't a legitimate user. Aragorn was (the attack of the Corsairs) and so was Denethor--also a legitimate user as the heir of the Steward to the last King of Gondor. In UT, Tolkien discusses in some detail the differences between Saruman and Denethor. Both got into trouble by using the Palantiri, but Saruman (an illegitimate user who uses the Palantir for selfish motives) ends up (more or less) doing Sauron's bidding. Denethor, whose motive is to fulfill his duty to Gondor, continues to oppose Sauron, athough he is tricked into believing the situation is hopeless--a much less catastrophic fall than Saruman's. Of course if it had been desirable for Gandalf to look into the Palantir, all he would have had to do to be a legitimate user and so gain an advantage over Sauron was to ask Aragorn's permission. |
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