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Old 08-08-2002, 05:12 PM   #1
Birdland
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After watching the film again, and the wonderful "behind-the-scenes" documentaries, I've really come to admire the advances that Weta and P.J. have made in the area of special effects, (except for the Legolas/Cave Troll battle, which looked kind of wooden to me - but I digress).<P>One thing that I have not figured out, though, and I don't think was addressed anywhere, was how P.J. accomplished the scenes where the hobbits are picked up by the Men or Orcs. Specifically in Moria where Bormomir carries a struggling Frodo away from the bridge, and the scene where the Orcs picked up Merry and Pippin and carried them off. <P>The scale of the character's sizes look perfect, and it doesn't look like they are CGI creations. Please, can anyone clue me in to a web page or book that explains how these scenes were created?
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Old 08-08-2002, 06:09 PM   #2
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For the scenes where the "Hobbits" had to interact with the larger characters (ie. Sean Bean picking up Elijah) They used stand-ins who were the proper size. For example, when you saw Boromir's facing the screen and you couldn't see Frodo, there was a stand-in that was the size of Frodo. When Boromir was holding Frodo, but you could only see Frodo, it was a 7-foot something stand in. They had two different sizes of sets so that they could film each part in the appropriate height, and then spliced them together. I've seen this all somewhere, scattered throughout various books on the movie, magazines, and websites. You might want to try the archives on theonering.net. Maybe someone else can explain better. I'm still reeling from the hot scene I saw of Elrond on the 10 minute TTT preview on the DVD.
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Old 08-08-2002, 06:19 PM   #3
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But in the scene where Boromir and Frodo are fleeing from the bridge, you can clearly see both Frodo's and Boromir's faces, reacting to the situation. I know, because I always watch that scene, since it makes me bawl like a baby. <P>Did they splice Sean Bean's face onto a stand-in's body? If they did, I'm in awe, because I've been trying to figure out how to do that on PhotoShop for a month, and haven't been able to do it yet. (The results look soooooo lame!)<P>P.S. - I don't mean to be biased, but you can always tell when they are using stand-in "little people". Dwarfs and midgets seldom can move with the flexiblity of people of average heights. The proportions are just not the same. (Speaking of flexibility, watch Birdie bend over backwards to be P.C.!)<p>[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]
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Old 08-08-2002, 06:28 PM   #4
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Yeah, they use the computer to do scenes like those, but their programs are better than ours. lol! There's so much junk scattered around explaining how they did all these things, it would take months to get it all in one place! <P>Oh, and don't hurt yourself!
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Old 08-08-2002, 06:45 PM   #5
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What I think they did for most scenes is that they film one actor, say, Gandalf, with the scene. then they take Bilbo and film his part with a "green screen" background. Green screns are used like this: the green, when taken in to a computer editing porgram, can be reased as a tranparency. So, the only thing left is the actor. Place the two scenes over each other and voila! You have the sizes. Maybe they filmed Bilbo's scene and downsized it, then put it over Gandalf's. (This is at Bag End) and used the same technique for others. I will know a bit more after a few months- I'm taking broadcasting in school!
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Old 08-08-2002, 11:49 PM   #6
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Thats interesting Nufaciel. I was also wondering how they could make the hobbits and "big people" interact like that in those scenes, but now it all makes sense.
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Old 08-09-2002, 10:16 PM   #7
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Camera angles are very important. For instance, when Gandalf is sitting at the table discussing the Ring with Frodo, and it clearly appears to be both real actors, they use camera angles to make it appear like Gandalf is much larger then Frodo, when really, Gandalf is just closer to the camera then Frodo is. And they use tall-stand-ins when it involves a close-up of the hobbits standing besides a man or elf or whatever, not just the short ones! I read that in the Movie Guide book...
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Old 08-09-2002, 11:04 PM   #8
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In a few scenes you can tell that they have used "risers" for the tall actors to stand on like the scene at the council of Elrond when Elrond says "9 wlakers against the 9 riders" the tall people are all in a row standing on a wooden box.<P>That's interesting, Green Ringwraith, My husband is in Broadcasting. He has worked for ABCand NBC. He started it in highschool and has been in the same field for more than 15 years.
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Old 08-10-2002, 06:10 PM   #9
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Perhaps Elijah Wood is really that small <BR>The lead singer of my sis's band met him and he said that he is a pretty small guy. I mean, he does look a little larger in the scene where Sean Bean is carrying him, so... maybe he is really carrying him & there is that much of a size difference? Maybe...
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Old 08-10-2002, 07:28 PM   #10
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Wood stands 5'6", if I am not mistaken.<P>He spent a lot of time (Way too much time, he felt) filming in front of the blue screen. Blue screen is used whenever a background will be added. In other words, Elijah would be filmed in front of the bluescreen, talking to the air, reacting to nothing, imagining everything in his head-- that takes talent, I think-- and then they'd cut-and-paste his face onto the face of a dummy or another actor.<P>For instance, Arwen carrying Frodo to the fords on Asfaloth was definitely done by Liv Tyler carrying a dummy (on a fake horse) and then Elijah's face digitally added afterwards. You can see pictures of Arwen carrying the dummy on the fake horse online.<P>I suspect that the Boromir scene may have been a midget double or perhaps even a child, waving his arms, and then Elijah's face added afterwards. Possibility 2 is, they had a huge guy who would dress in a large version of everybody else's clothes, and his face was either not in the picture, or digitally replaced with somebody else's face. (In this case, Boromir's.)<P>There's my two best guesses on how Boromir carrying Frodo was made to happen.<p>[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]
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Old 08-11-2002, 08:11 AM   #11
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well actually hobbits are small, but they are kind of stcky and well built. So they probally are pretty heavy. Those are my thoughts.
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Old 08-12-2002, 03:10 AM   #12
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What always puzzled me was at the beginning of the film when you see Frodo and Gandalf riding on the cart and you see both their faces. It could not have been done with a blue screen, and how much difference in distance from the camera can there be if they are on the same cart?
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Old 08-12-2002, 03:53 AM   #13
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I'm not exactly sure about this but I read that the cart was actually constructed so that the bench that they are sitting on is split into two. The side that Frodo is sitting on is behind the side that Gandalf is sitting on. This creates the effect of Frodo being smaller through perspective (the farther away something is, the smaller it appears). With the camera angles that they used it looks as if they are sitting on the same bench.<P>When the orcs take Merry and Pippin, has anyone compared Merry's size to the orc that is carrying him? As far as I can tell, they seem to be the same size! Can anyone else see this?
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Old 08-31-2002, 07:45 AM   #14
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I never want to hear anyone complain about this cast's acting skills. If the majority of the time was just them talking to the air then they all did a superb job.<P>I don't know much but there is a part where Legolas is shooting an arrow and the hobbits are running past him. In that scene he is actually standing on a box.<P>And durring the edited out gift giving scene Galadreil was standing on a platform.
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