The Forgotten Ringbearer - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kalimac · 12-05-2002, 12:01 AM

This question was inspired partly by the discussion on the last thread about whether we wished Gollum had lived or not. Gollum, of course, got the Ring by murdering his friend Deagol for it. The odd thing is that - in Gandalf's account anyway - Deagol doesn't seem to be terribly overcome by the Ring when he first fishes it out of the water. True, he won't give it Smeagol - "I have given you a present already, more than I could afford" - but neither does he seem to be struck with the instantaneous and extremely powerful lust for it which hits Smeagol. (If he'd been that impressed by it, surely he would have kept a closer eye on Smeagol to make sure he didn't try anything).

So, my questions: first of all, was Smeagol's reaction a response to some sort of call from the Ring? Like speaking to like, if I may put it that way, since Smeagol has a tendency to enjoy digging into the dirt and has a fairly nasty personality, the Ring may have somehow been on his wavelength and found him a more suitable master, personality-wise, than Deagol. Second, if Deagol had lived (a stretch, I know, but suppose he'd been out fishing alone that day) would he have made a more Bilbo-like Ringbearer? His reaction on finding it is certainly a lot more like Bilbo's - "Oh, how nice, now let's get on with what we were doing before" - and since he's not portrayed as being as wormy as Smeagol, he may well have used it only to hide when unpleasant callers came and so forth. Ultimately, of course, *something* would happen...but what?

Just wondering what everyone thinks. Of course, the ultimate consequences for ME if Deagol had lived is a natural spinoff question...

Birdland · 12-05-2002, 01:05 AM

Well, gee, Kalimac, poor Deagol really didn't have much of a chance to form any kind of deep attachment to the thing:

Deagol - "Such a simple, gold ring, and yet I feel strangly drawn to it, as if it were very import...GHHHAAARRRGGGGHHH!" (Thud.)

Gwaihir the Windlord · 12-05-2002, 01:43 AM

Deagol may well have regarded the Ring in the same way Bilbo did. They were both Hobbits at any rate.

Smeagol was different though. While still a Hobbit, he was really a bit of a wierdo, and considered such by members of his family it would seem. Perhaps it was this wierdoness that drew him to the Ring; it was more on his wavelength as a wierd object itself.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 12-05-2002, 02:14 AM

Quote:

he was really a bit of a wierdo, and considered such by members of his family it would seem.

I'm not sure, but I think that they thought this afterwards, when Smeagol used teh ring to spy and find out secrets.

As you should know, I have many opinions on this topic with Gollum and the ring. I think that you are right about the ring 'calling' gollum. Someone said that gollum was wholey evil. They said one reason why was because he got off to a bad start by killing Deagol. I don't think glooum was wholey evil, but he definately got off to a bad start. Of course the ring called him, but why? Because if the ring could get gollum to get off to a bad start by killing Deagol, then it would be easier for the ring to control gllom or cloud his mind. It would be easier for the ring that way, rather than control Deagol, who might be harder to control since he did not aquire the ring by some sort of evil. I think that how a person aquire's the ring may affect the way that ringbearer reacts to it. So yes, I think Deagol would have reacted differently to the ring, and yes, more like Bilbo did. They both found it (I wouldn't say found it by chance because I did think teh ring had some part to play in appealing in some way or by catching someones eye to be found) and didn't really feel a desire for power. Although, it's hard to say in Deagol's case since he died soon after he found it, but they didn't feel an
instant desire for power.

What could have happened if Deagol live? I don't know. This is a very broad and general question so its hard to say, but a lot of things could have happened.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

Neferchoirwen · 12-05-2002, 09:47 PM

Deagol sounds like he would have handled the ring the way Bilbo would have. And I agree that Smeagol's "bad start" gave the ring the perfect impression of an owner it would like to have. Deagol just wasn't "owner material" because he got the ring without the evil flair.

Bilbo's getting the ring was a sort of redemption for Deagol, and it was all for the best.

Diamond18 · 12-05-2002, 10:11 PM

I recall that in one of his letters Tolkien described Deagol as having a "mean little soul" and that he had begrudged the gift that Stoor tradition dictated he give to Smeagol. Tolkien then said that Smeagol had a "meaner, littler soul" (though I really don't think he used the word "littler"...that just seems right to my odd little brain).

So I have a feeling that, had Deagol had the time, the Ring would have had its way with him. Not to the extent, perhaps, of Smeagol, but certainly more than Bilbo, who was an exceptional hobbit.

Kalimac · 12-05-2002, 11:58 PM

Small and mean, hmmm...maybe like the Sackville-Bagginses, then? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. It still sounds to me like it would have taken longer for the Ring to overcome him (though as long as it was taking on Bilbo, before he gave it up). And since Deagol didn't start his possession of the Ring off with a murder, it would have taken a while for him to be thoroughly overcome. Though that might have been fatal to ME in the end, since he wouldn't have been as intense and secretive about it as Gollum was - in fact, if he was anything like the S-Bs, he might have enjoyed flaunting the Ring and mentioning that "YOU can't touch it" to Gollum. So word of the Ring would have spread pretty quickly and unless Deagol did a very good job of slipping away later, probably would have been much more easily traced (since Sauron would know that it had been found in the Gladden Fields at any rate, and also by whom).

Elven Mistress · 12-10-2002, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Someone said that gollum was wholey evil. They said one reason why was because he got off to a bad start by killing Deagol. I don't think glooum was wholey evil, but he definately got off to a bad start.

I agree, i don't think Gollum was completely evil: i don't believe ANYONE is completely evil. Not even Sauron. Even the "big bad guys" have a soft spot...i mean, maybe they did all the bad things just because they needed a hug [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Well, getting back on subject, I think that if Deagol had kept the ring, the same thing would have happened to him as happened to Gollum. He may not have killed, but i believe - after a little while of having it - he would find refuge somewhere alone and turn into a Gollum creature.

Neferchoirwen · 12-15-2002, 12:51 PM

Just a random thought (as susch thoughts come up when one's brain is crashing...)

What good would Gollum do if he had lived? He'd be miserable forever, with chances of recovering being zilch. The way he went was Tolkien's way of putting the poor thing out of it misery.

As for Deagol, I'd still say that Bilbo was a sort of redemption. The ring wanted something different to corrupt, I guess. Someone nicer.

Nenya · 12-15-2002, 01:36 PM

So, do you think Bilbo and Smeagol were both in their different ways exceptional hobbits? And if so, what would have happened if a "normal" hobbit, say, umm...Fredegar Bolger had gotten the Ring? How long could he have resisted the Ring, and would he have acted more like Bilbo or Gollum?

[ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: Nenya ]

engwaalphiel · 12-15-2002, 01:37 PM

The ring finding Bilbo because it wanted something nicer to corrupt ? nice thouhgt :0
However did the ring mean to come to bilbo at all , as stated that it was looking for it's master but bilbo came across it .
That's another topic i suppose.
Smeagol being corrupted by the ring most probably did start with murdering Deagol . If he started evil ways then the more easy it would have been for the ring to corrupt him so that's presumed correct.

-Imrahil- · 12-15-2002, 05:41 PM

Interesting question. Smeagol was really not considered a weirdo until after he got the ring and started spying on his family and putting his knowledge to wicked uses. It is true that he was interested in roots and beginnings ect. So if that makes him a weirdo then yes he was pretty bizarre before the ring came along.

[ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: -Imrahil- ]

Neferchoirwen · 12-16-2002, 02:42 AM

Hmmm...Bilbo and Deagol being exceptional? Nice peice of tofu to chew on, there. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Not much is said about Deagol, but I assume that he's a nice hobbit than Smeagol is. But then, they were both supposed to be friends (If I remember right).

About the ring finding Bilbo, it was kinda like the ring knew that Bilbo would take it somewhere obscure as the Shire. That's where I got the idea for the ring wanting something nicer to corrupt.

doug*platypus · 12-28-2002, 02:28 AM

We know little about Deagol, except that he was (in his own mind) generous with his birthday present to his friend, and not a match in strength for a humble river-fish. There could hardly be a plausible need for Deagol to give the Ring up to Smeagol simply because he asked for It. It need only have been pretty and desirable, and not magical for Deagol to desire to keep It for himself. Of course, it's possible that he was so captivated by the Ring that he was oblivious to the danger he placed himself in by withholding It from Smeagol. As for the Ring "calling" to Smeagol, I think that's personifying It just a little too much. From what we are told in the books, the Ring itself is constantly trying to return to Sauron, not to gain a new master. It would be hasty for It to presume that Sauron had a better chance of recovering It from Smeagol's hands; if It did indeed think that, It was wrong in the end anyway.

Rather than the Ring "calling" for Smeagol, I think that he was drawn to It by feelings that were in himself, and in many others. Greed and envy. The Ring was attractive to many people.

An interesting point has been raised that the Ringbearers each started off their ownership of the Ring under different circumstances. Might make/have made a good topic.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 12-28-2002, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Ring itself is constantly trying to return to Sauron, not to gain a new master.

It was never trying to gain a new master. It is trying to use anyone to get back to Sauron. No one can master the ring except Sauron; Sauron is the ring's one and only master. The ring only answers only to Sauron. And it was only getting a new ringbearer, not a new master. It was like a free ride for the ring, but it did not anticipate Smeagol hiding in a cave for all that time.

[ December 28, 2002: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

12-05-2002, 12:01 AM	#1
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	The Forgotten Ringbearer This question was inspired partly by the discussion on the last thread about whether we wished Gollum had lived or not. Gollum, of course, got the Ring by murdering his friend Deagol for it. The odd thing is that - in Gandalf's account anyway - Deagol doesn't seem to be terribly overcome by the Ring when he first fishes it out of the water. True, he won't give it Smeagol - "I have given you a present already, more than I could afford" - but neither does he seem to be struck with the instantaneous and extremely powerful lust for it which hits Smeagol. (If he'd been that impressed by it, surely he would have kept a closer eye on Smeagol to make sure he didn't try anything). So, my questions: first of all, was Smeagol's reaction a response to some sort of call from the Ring? Like speaking to like, if I may put it that way, since Smeagol has a tendency to enjoy digging into the dirt and has a fairly nasty personality, the Ring may have somehow been on his wavelength and found him a more suitable master, personality-wise, than Deagol. Second, if Deagol had lived (a stretch, I know, but suppose he'd been out fishing alone that day) would he have made a more Bilbo-like Ringbearer? His reaction on finding it is certainly a lot more like Bilbo's - "Oh, how nice, now let's get on with what we were doing before" - and since he's not portrayed as being as wormy as Smeagol, he may well have used it only to hide when unpleasant callers came and so forth. Ultimately, of course, something would happen...but what? Just wondering what everyone thinks. Of course, the ultimate consequences for ME if Deagol had lived is a natural spinoff question... __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

12-05-2002, 09:47 PM	#5
Neferchoirwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: RtR: 483.3 miles, Fords of Bruinen Posts: 513	Deagol sounds like he would have handled the ring the way Bilbo would have. And I agree that Smeagol's "bad start" gave the ring the perfect impression of an owner it would like to have. Deagol just wasn't "owner material" because he got the ring without the evil flair. Bilbo's getting the ring was a sort of redemption for Deagol, and it was all for the best. __________________ On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/

12-05-2002, 10:11 PM	#6
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,561	I recall that in one of his letters Tolkien described Deagol as having a "mean little soul" and that he had begrudged the gift that Stoor tradition dictated he give to Smeagol. Tolkien then said that Smeagol had a "meaner, littler soul" (though I really don't think he used the word "littler"...that just seems right to my odd little brain). So I have a feeling that, had Deagol had the time, the Ring would have had its way with him. Not to the extent, perhaps, of Smeagol, but certainly more than Bilbo, who was an exceptional hobbit. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

12-05-2002, 11:58 PM	#7
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Small and mean, hmmm...maybe like the Sackville-Bagginses, then? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. It still sounds to me like it would have taken longer for the Ring to overcome him (though as long as it was taking on Bilbo, before he gave it up). And since Deagol didn't start his possession of the Ring off with a murder, it would have taken a while for him to be thoroughly overcome. Though that might have been fatal to ME in the end, since he wouldn't have been as intense and secretive about it as Gollum was - in fact, if he was anything like the S-Bs, he might have enjoyed flaunting the Ring and mentioning that "YOU can't touch it" to Gollum. So word of the Ring would have spread pretty quickly and unless Deagol did a very good job of slipping away later, probably would have been much more easily traced (since Sauron would know that it had been found in the Gladden Fields at any rate, and also by whom). __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

12-15-2002, 12:51 PM	#9
Neferchoirwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: RtR: 483.3 miles, Fords of Bruinen Posts: 513	Just a random thought (as susch thoughts come up when one's brain is crashing...) What good would Gollum do if he had lived? He'd be miserable forever, with chances of recovering being zilch. The way he went was Tolkien's way of putting the poor thing out of it misery. As for Deagol, I'd still say that Bilbo was a sort of redemption. The ring wanted something different to corrupt, I guess. Someone nicer. __________________ On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/

12-05-2002, 01:05 AM	#2
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	Well, gee, Kalimac, poor Deagol really didn't have much of a chance to form any kind of deep attachment to the thing: Deagol - "Such a simple, gold ring, and yet I feel strangly drawn to it, as if it were very import...GHHHAAARRRGGGGHHH!" (Thud.)

12-05-2002, 01:43 AM	#3
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	Deagol may well have regarded the Ring in the same way Bilbo did. They were both Hobbits at any rate. Smeagol was different though. While still a Hobbit, he was really a bit of a wierdo, and considered such by members of his family it would seem. Perhaps it was this wierdoness that drew him to the Ring; it was more on his wavelength as a wierd object itself.

12-15-2002, 01:36 PM	#10
Nenya Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the hand of Lady Galadriel Posts: 127	So, do you think Bilbo and Smeagol were both in their different ways exceptional hobbits? And if so, what would have happened if a "normal" hobbit, say, umm...Fredegar Bolger had gotten the Ring? How long could he have resisted the Ring, and would he have acted more like Bilbo or Gollum? [ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: Nenya ]

12-15-2002, 01:37 PM	#11
engwaalphiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The edge of nowhere Posts: 89	The ring finding Bilbo because it wanted something nicer to corrupt ? nice thouhgt :0 However did the ring mean to come to bilbo at all , as stated that it was looking for it's master but bilbo came across it . That's another topic i suppose. Smeagol being corrupted by the ring most probably did start with murdering Deagol . If he started evil ways then the more easy it would have been for the ring to corrupt him so that's presumed correct. __________________ Estel............. Some have it more than others. "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!

12-15-2002, 05:41 PM	#12
-Imrahil- Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dol Amroth, upon the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 259	Interesting question. Smeagol was really not considered a weirdo until after he got the ring and started spying on his family and putting his knowledge to wicked uses. It is true that he was interested in roots and beginnings ect. So if that makes him a weirdo then yes he was pretty bizarre before the ring came along. [ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: -Imrahil- ] __________________ My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

12-16-2002, 02:42 AM	#13
Neferchoirwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: RtR: 483.3 miles, Fords of Bruinen Posts: 513	Hmmm...Bilbo and Deagol being exceptional? Nice peice of tofu to chew on, there. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Not much is said about Deagol, but I assume that he's a nice hobbit than Smeagol is. But then, they were both supposed to be friends (If I remember right). About the ring finding Bilbo, it was kinda like the ring knew that Bilbo would take it somewhere obscure as the Shire. That's where I got the idea for the ring wanting something nicer to corrupt. __________________ On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/

12-28-2002, 02:28 AM	#14
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 963	We know little about Deagol, except that he was (in his own mind) generous with his birthday present to his friend, and not a match in strength for a humble river-fish. There could hardly be a plausible need for Deagol to give the Ring up to Smeagol simply because he asked for It. It need only have been pretty and desirable, and not magical for Deagol to desire to keep It for himself. Of course, it's possible that he was so captivated by the Ring that he was oblivious to the danger he placed himself in by withholding It from Smeagol. As for the Ring "calling" to Smeagol, I think that's personifying It just a little too much. From what we are told in the books, the Ring itself is constantly trying to return to Sauron, not to gain a new master. It would be hasty for It to presume that Sauron had a better chance of recovering It from Smeagol's hands; if It did indeed think that, It was wrong in the end anyway. Rather than the Ring "calling" for Smeagol, I think that he was drawn to It by feelings that were in himself, and in many others. Greed and envy. The Ring was attractive to many people. An interesting point has been raised that the Ringbearers each started off their ownership of the Ring under different circumstances. Might make/have made a good topic. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.