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Old 02-21-2019, 12:00 PM   #1
ArcusCalion
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Leaf Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar

This is the first draft of the work Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar.

Our basis text is that of "Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" given in HoME X. Wherever the text is different from HoME X, this is marked by an editing mark.

The markings are:
LC-xx for tracking any and all changes.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source.


Quote:
OF THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS OF THE ELDAR
Pertaining to Marriage and Other Matters Related Thereto: Together with
The Statute of Finw and Mriel
And the Debate of the Valar at its Making


LC-01 {Aelfwine's Preamble}
The Eldar grew in bodily form ..... memory was still light upon them.
This same watcher might indeed .... before they were full-grown.

LC-02 [Of Marriage]

The Eldar wedded .... record none that surpassed him.
The Eldar wedded once ..... deeds of lust among them.
Marriage, save for rare .... the parents of either party.
In due time the betrothal .... continent and steadfast.
Nonetheless among the Eldar, .... nature of the Children of Eru.
After the betrothal it was ..... upon the index of the right hand.
Among the Noldor .... that was later accomplished.)
But these ceremonies ..... such marriages were often made. LC-03 <A Thus Beren and Tinviel could lawfully have wedded, but for Beren’s oath to Thingol.>
As for the begetting and bearing .... minds they may enter directly.
Also the Eldar say that .... which their nature urges them to fulfil.
Thus, although the wedded remain ..... happiness and peace if they could.

In all such things, not concerned .... war until the last need.
As for other matters, ..... Noldor, be they neri or nissi.

Of Naming

This is the manner .... the choice of the child.
But every child among ..... the end of the tenth year.
In elder times the 'Chosen Name’, ..... modification of the old name might be made. LC-04 <[Footnote: It will be observed in the histories how seldom the same name recurs for different persons. This is because, both in Essecarm and in Essecilm, there was usually an attempt to mark individuality; and names were regarded as the property of those who first bore them.]>
Now both these names, ... found among Men.]
Since, however, the Eldar ..... new name. [Footnote: The Eldar hold that, .... desirous of change. {[}According to the Eldar, the only ‘character’ of any person that was not subject to change was the difference of sex. For this they held to belong not only to the body {(hrondo) [>} (hra){]} but also to the mind {(inno) [>} (LC-05 {indo}[sma]){]} equally: that is, to the person as a whole. This person or individual they often called ess (that is 'name'), but it was also called erd, or 'singularity'. LC-06 {Those who returned from Mandos, therefore, after the death of their first body, returned always to the same name and to the same sex as formerly.}] He might ..... in the course of life.
These deliberate changes ..... after the father-name.
All other 'given names' .... or 'sometimes known as {Mormacil}[Mormegil]' (that is Blacksword).
The amilessi terceny, or mother-names .... or a patronymic (as LC-07 Finwion ‘son of Finw'). The father-name of a daughter would likewise often be derived from the name of the mother.
Renowned examples of these things are found in the early histories. Thus Finw, first lord of the Noldor, first named his eldest son LC-08 {Finwion}[Finw (minya)]; but later .... in honor of his mother LC-08.5 {, whom he never saw}.)
LC-09 A <Finw then named his second son (by another mother, Indis) also Finw, modifying it later to olofinw. But the mother-name which Indis gave to him was Ingoldo, signifying that he was partly of both the Ingar (people of Ingwe), her own kin, and of the Noldor. By this name he also became generally known; though after the rule of the Noldor was committed to him by Manw (in the place of his elder brother and his father) he took the name of Finw, and was in fact usually called Ingoldo-finw. Similarly the third son was Arafinw and also Ingalaur (because he had the golden hair of his mother's kin).>
Elw, lord of the Teleri, ..... in his own realm.

Of Death and the Severance of Fa and {Hrondo [ >} Hra {]}

It must be understood .... than to their bodies.
Now the Eldar are immortal ..... and may be utterly destroyed.
If then the {hrondo [>} hra{]} be destroyed, .... again to the general {hron [>} LC-10 {orma]}[erma] of Arda. Then the fa is, .... by direct awareness to other far).
This destruction of the {hrondo [>} hra{]}, ....their bodies less complete.
This command was, nonetheless, .... that would have proved fatal to Men.
As ages passed the dominance ..... a mere memory held by the fa LC-11 {; and that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-earth}, so that the Elves .....differ little from the death of Men.
What then happened to the .... desired to bring them to the light of Aman.
It was in Aman that they learned .... But in this state they LC-12 {were open to}[received] the direct instruction .... in the realm of the Valar.
If they obeyed this summons .... course might be redressed.

Of Re-birth and Other Dooms of Those That Go to Mandos

Now the Eldar hold .... did not exist before birth LC-13 {, or is the fa of one that is re-born}.
The new fa, and therefore .... he prepares for them.
But they did not reach .... parents as did its {hrondo}[hra].
Yet always some dissented, ..... and the fa increases in mastery.'
LC-14 {Later when the Elves became aware of re-birth this argument was added: 'If the far of children were normally derived from the parents and akin to them, then re-birth would be unnatural and unjust. For it would deprive the second parents, without consent, of one half of their parentage, intruding into their kin a child half alien.'}
Nonetheless, the older opinion .... with the mother’s and supports it.
It was for this reason .... the bodies dwell together.'

A houseless fa that chose or was permitted to return to life re-entered the incarnate world through LC-15 {child-birth}[re-housing]. Only thus could it return. [Footnote: Save in rare and strange cases: that is, where the body that the fa had forsaken was whole, and remained still coherent and incorrupt. But this could seldom happen; for death unwilling could occur only when great violence was done to the body; and in death by will, such as at times befell because of utter weariness or great grief, the fa would not desire to return, until the body, deserted by the spirit, was dissolved. This happened swiftly in Middle-earth. In Aman only was there no decay. LC-16 Thus Mriel was there rehoused in her own body, as is hereafter told.] LC-17 {For it is plain that the provision of a bodily house for a fa, and the union of fa with hrondo, was committed by Eru to the Children, to be achieved in the act of begetting.}
LC-18 As for this re-{birth}[housing], it was not an opinion, but known and certain. LC-19 <Glorfindel 1 The Elves were destined to be by nature 'immortal', within the unknown limits of the life of the Earth as a habitable realm, and their disembodiment was a grievous thing. It was the duty, therefore, of the Valar to restore them, if they were slain, to incarnate life, if they desired it - unless for some grave (and rare) reason: such as deeds of great evil, or any works of malice of which they remained obdurately unrepentant. When they were re-embodied they could remain in Valinor, or return to Middle-earth if their home had been there.> { For the fa re-born became a child indeed, enjoying once more all the wonder and newness of childhood; but slowly, and only after it had acquired a knowledge of the world and mastery of itself, its memory would awake; until, when the re-born elf was full-grown, it recalled all its former life, and then the old life, and the ‘waiting’, and the new life became one ordered history and identity. This memory would thus hold a double joy of childhood, and also an experience and knowledge greater than the years of its body.} In this way the violence or grief that the re-born had suffered was redressed and its being was enriched. For the Re-born are twice nourished, LC-20 {and twice parented, [Footnote: In some cases a fa re-born might have the same parents again. For instance, if its first body had died in early youth. But this did not often happen; neither did a fa necessarily re-enter its own former kin, for often a great length of time passed before it wished or was permitted to return.]} and have two memories of the joy of awaking and discovering the world of living and the splendor of Arda. Their life is, therefore, as if a year had two springs and though an untimely frost followed after the first, the second spring and all the summer after were fairer and more blessed.
The Eldar say that more .... do not wish to return.

Re-birth is not the only fate .... to take up their lives again.
For there was, for all .... (especially if these were evil).
Those who were healed could .... that had once been dear to them.
Concerning the fate of other elves, .... strong bonds of love in life.

The fa is single, and ..... counter-summons of Morgoth.
But it would seem that .... is in itself a sign of taint.
It is therefore a foolish .... host of Sauron his servant.
Some say that the Houseless .... how to achieve them.

{[}Thus it may be seen ..... nothing evil can counterfeit. LC-21 {So spoke AElfwine.]} In this account .... misfortunes and misdeeds to afflict them.

Of the Severance of Marriage

Much has now been said .... upon their marriage?
Since death and the sundering .... should be done or thought.
In this matter they turned .... Nmo Mandos, the Judge.
'Marriage of the Eldar,' he said, .... still a union of will.
'How then can a marriage be ended .... only of one with one.
‘Plainly an end can be made .... within the life of Arda.
'We say that the ending .... the life of the body.'
The Eldar then asked: .... presume the dooms of Mandos?'

Upon this pronouncement .... more important are here added.
1. It was asked: 'What .... spirit and body?'
It was answered: ..... their dwelling together.
'Nonetheless marriage concerns .... while that will remain.'
2. It was asked: .... they wish it or not?’
It was answered: 'It has been said that marriage resides ultimately in the will of the far. Also the identity of person resides wholly in the fa, and the re-born is the same person as the one who died. LC-22 <Version A Nonetheless, since marriage is also of the body and one body has perished, they must be married again, .... Upon this the Eldar comment: 'LC-23 {By this is meant that the Reborn Spouse will not appear among the close kindred of the Living Spouse, and in fact the Reborn appear as a rule amongst their own former kin, unless in the chances of Arda things have so changed that the meeting of the sundered would thus be unlikely. [Added:} For the first purpose of the fa that seeks rebirth is to find its spouse, and children, if it had these in life.{]} The Reborn that were unwedded always return to their own kin.' For the marriages .... far-sundered in kin.

Hardly otherwise shall it be .... together in Mandos.’
It was asked: ‘Why must the Dead .... Mandos speaks?’
It was answered: ‘The reasons are .... presume the dooms of Mandos?’’

Upon this the Eldar comment: .... and is over all.

This judgement is known as the ‘Statute of Finw and Mriel', for theirs was the first case, and it was on behalf of Finw that Manw’s counsel was sought in this matter.

LC-24 <LQ2 Namna Finw Mriello>[/b]

LC-25 {Now Finw, first Lord of the Noldor, ......... and evil would never have been.}
LC-26 {Thus it is that the}The cases in which remarriage of the Eldar can take place are rare, but rarer still are those who do this, even when it is permissible. For the sorrow and strife in the house of Finw is graven in the memory of the Eldar.

{[It is recorded ... This passage was later replaced as follows:]} It is recorded by the Eldar ....long await it.{]}’
Then Aul, friend of the Noldor .... summon them to Valinor.{]}
But Ulmo answered: ..... errors and misdeeds.{]}
Then Yavanna spoke, ..... a sign to be heeded.'
Then Ninna spoke, ..... bereavement of Finw?
'Mriel, I deem, died ..... should this be grudged?'
But Ulmo answered her ...... her weariness were healed.
'Thus Finw was aggrieved ..... asked for justice, and relief.'
'Nay!' said Vair suddenly. .... and bond of his fatherhood.'
When Vair had spoken, ..... inherent in their union.
'Aul and Ninna err, .... and accord with its processes.
'Therefore I deem that Ulmo ..... should grow to be daughters and sons.
'For Arda Unmarred hath ..... and its end is in despair.
'Therefore, notwithstanding ..... and will bear fruit in sorrow.
'But this matter I now commit to Nmo the Judge. Let him speak last!'

Then Nmo Mandos spoke, saying: ..... Let the Statute stand, for it is just.
'It is our part to rule Arda, and ..... maketh it
seem hateful.
'Healing by final Hope, ..... such means will Arda be healed.
'It is right, therefore, that this .... Arda, be fashioned.
'Hearken now, O Valar! ..... peoples of Arda until the End.
'When he that shall be called ..... Valinor groweth dim.'
'So be it!' said Manw.

LC-27 Therefore the Statute was proclaimed, and the meeting of Indis and Finw took place, as has been told.
But after a while Ninna .... with hope of doing?'
But this Mandos forbade. 'Nay,’ .... to his former spouse.'
But Ninna said to .... part in Justice.'
But Mandos was ..... been set was released.
And when she learned of Finw ..... body and its skills. {]}'
And Finw said to Vair: 'Dost ..... Doom will be inviolate.'
'So thou may deem,’ answered .... pitying now Mriel only.'
'Thou art unjust to me in ..... Noldor hath passed to my sons.'
But when Mandos was approached .... which good may grow.'
Therefore when Ninna came ..... praise that is given seldom even to works of the Eldar.

LC-28 <The Converse of Manw and Eru

Manw spoke to Eru, .... those that have gone?'
Eru answered: 'Let the houseless be re-housed!'
Manw asked: 'How shall this be done?'
Eru answered: 'Let the body that was destroyed be re-made. LC-29 {Or} Let the naked fa be re-born {as a child}.'
Manw said: 'Is it Thy will that we should attempt these things? For we fear to meddle with Thy Children.'
Eru answered: 'Have I not given .... Middle-earth in which I set them?'
Manw answered: .... beyond our skill.'
Eru said: 'I give you authority. ..... back to the lands of the living.’
LC-30 {Then Manw asked further: 'O Ilvatar, hast Thou not spoken also of re-birth? Is that too within our power and authority?'
Eru answered: 'It shall be within your authority, but it is not in your power. Those whom ye judge fit to be re-born, if they desire it and understand clearly what they incur, ye shall surrender to Me; and I will consider them.'}>
LC-01: I removed the name 'Aelfwine's preamble' since we have removed him from our documents.

LC-02: I added this heading in order to keep the first two paragraphs as a preamble. CT expressed his confusion at the nature of the preamble, and I think this clears it up. This whole section is about marriage and children, so I think it fits. You may feel that it is unnecessary.

LC-03: Added an extra detail from text A that was missing from text B.

LC-04: Added in the footnote which was missing from text B.

LC-05: This change is per the later writing Osanwe-Kenta. There the word for mind is 'sama' and later indo is glossed as 'will'.

LC-06: This pertains to the rejected idea of the elves being reborn into their children, so I removed it.

LC-07: I marked this because I am unsure. Feanor is never given the name Finwion elsewhere, but in the Shibboleth he is said to have been called Finwe-minya. However, I don't think we need to remove it, because Finwion just means 'Son of Finwe' so I think it's a neutral enough name to allow.

LC-08: This change is based on the Shibboleth, where it says he first named Feanor Finwe-minya.

LC-08.5: This change is based on the Shibboleth, where Feanor knew his mother for a few years before she died. This is part of a discussion we must have when reviewing the Darkening of Valinor chapters.

LC-09: This is an addition from text A that is not in text B.

LC-10: This is a change per the later document the Commentary to the Athrabeth.

LC-11: This seems impossible in the setting of this being written in the Fourth Age in the TftE, but if we are rejecting such an in-universe authorship, we may consider leaving it.

LC-12: I changed this because in the Osanwe it says that the fea are never able to be commanded by anyone, even when they are houseless. Therefore, I changed the language here to be less strict and more vague. I think it works.

LC-13: Removed because of the change from re-birth into the children.

LC-14: Removed because of the change from re-birth into the children.

LC-15: Changed because of the change from re-birth into the children.

LC-16: This we may have to remove depending on our decision about LC-27.

LC-17: Removed because of the change from re-birth into the children.

LC-18: Changed because of the change from re-birth into the children.

LC-19: I replaced the section on rebirth into the children with this bit taken from the Glorfindel 1 text, which we did not use in that chapter. It sums up everything we need, so I think it's a good replacement.

LC-20: Removed because of the change from re-birth into the children.

LC-21: Removed a reference to Aelfwine.

LC-22: This is my attempt to transition from the incomplete text B to the complete text A. I think this works well.

LC-23: Removed because of the change from re-birth into the children.

LC-24: This is the section about the Statue, and I figured we might as well include the elvish name for it taken from LQ2.

LC-25: This is all word-for word nearly the exact same as what we have in LQ2 and our chapter. Therefore I removed it for redundancy sake.

LC-26: Marking where we return to the text with some light editing.

LC-27: This section from here to the next marker is up for debate. As it is, if we decide to include it there are no internal edits that need to be made. However, whether or not we can include it at all is what we must discuss. Naturally this is a really interesting text and has a lot of new information about Finwe, Miriel, and the Valar and what happened to them, so I would love to include it. However, we have this line from the Shibboleth account of the story of Finwe and Miriel:
Quote:
It was judged that Finwe's bereavement was unjust, and that by persisting in her refusal to return Miriel had forfeited all rights that she had in the case; for either she was now capable of accepting the healing of her body by the Valar, or else her fea was mortally sick and beyond their power, and she was indeed 'dead', no longer capable of becoming again a living member of the kindred of the Eldar.
'So she must remain until the end of the world. For from the moment that Finwe and Indis are joined in marriage all future change and choice will be taken from her and she will never again be permitted to take bodily shape. her present body will simply wither and pass away, and the Valar will not restore it. For none of the Eldar may have two wives both alive in the world.' These were the words of Manwe, and an answer to the doubts that some had felt.
Now the Shibboleth is by far the later source, so at first glance we may think we must remove this section of the text. However, in the Shibboleth, the reason Manwe says this is that Finwe can't have two wives alive in the world. However, that is an essential question in this very text, and it is solved by Finwe not returning to life. Therefore, I think that this is a case of Tolkien forgetting what he had previously written, as is rife in the Last Writings. I think we can thus include this section, but I wanted to mark it for discussion by the project members.

LC-28: This text is given at the end of this section of HoME X, and because of its relevant subject matter I think it can be given here.

LC-29: Changed because of the change from re-birth into the children.

LC-30: We may perhaps take some of this removed section and edit it, but I do not know if we need to. It is up for discussion.

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 02-21-2019 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 02-22-2019, 03:29 PM   #2
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Great editing! Everything I do not comment upon I agree to. I have only a very few remarks and a few typos at the end.

LC-01: It is reight to remover lfwine, but why not keep the heading Preamble?

LC-02: Where does this headline come from?

LC-07: I am in doubt here. In LC-08 we correctly replaced this name. So as the texts stands now Finwion would be a kind of theoretical example. Would it not be better to take the real example Inglorion son of Inglor?

LC-11: We long since abonded the noten that our work has any in-univers reality. Therefore I would let this stand.

LC-12: I do not see a good reason for this change. It is made clear in the following text that fa could deny the direct instruction and command. What is said here is only that the fa was easily approachable by the Valar and unable to oferhear.

LC-14: I would let this stand as well. In it original context it would count for the Eldar, but as our texts stand the only reborn race are the Dwarves. And we might suppose that this comment was added when the Eldar learned (by Gimli) of that (for them strange) concept. But in the matter of incarnation the differences between all children of Eru, if of his own begetting of adopted, seem to be small.

LC-16: We might keep this but change it to as {is hereafter}has been told, since the telling is in the apropirate chapter of the Quenta Silmarillion. Here might therefore be as well the right place for including the footnote from LC-27. What about this editing:
Quote:
LC-16b Thus Mriel was there rehoused in her own body, as {is hereafter}has been told. LC-16.5 <moved from below {And still she is at work, though}Though her name has been changed. For now she is named Friel. For before the passing of Mriel the Eldar of Valinor had no word for dying in this manner, though they had words for being destroyed (in body) or being slain. But fire meant to 'expire, as of one sighing or releasing a deep breath; and at the passing of Mriel she had sighed a great sigh, and then lay still; and those who stood by said fri, she hath breathed forth'. This word the Eldar afterwards used of the death of Men. But though this sigh they take to be a symbol of release, and the ceasing of the bodys life, the Eldar do not confound the breath of the body with the spirit. This they call, as hath been seen, fa or fair, of which the ancient significance seems to be rather radiance'. For though the fa in itself is not visible to bodily eyes, it is in light that the Eldar find the most fitting symbol in bodily terms of the indwelling spirit, 'the light of the house or cacalina as they also name it. And those in whom the fa is strong and untainted, they say, appear even to mortal eyes to shine at times translucent (albeit faintly), as though a lamp burned within.>]
LC-17: Yes this must be removed here, but maybe we should search for a place for it, because the sentence in itself is true an worth mentioning in our account.

LC-19: I agree to this addition, very good find! But I think we should keep more of the text that was skipt. But for LC-20 I think we should edit it a bit differently:
Quote:
LC-18 As for this re-{birth}[housing], it was not an opinion, but known and certain. LC-19<Glorfindel 1 The Elves were destined to be by nature 'immortal', within the unknown limits of the life of the Earth as a habitable realm, and their disembodiment was a grievous thing. It was the duty, therefore, of the Valar to restore them, if they were slain, to incarnate life, if they desired it - unless for some grave (and rare) reason: such as deeds of great evil, or any works of malice of which they remained obdurately unrepentant. When they were re-embodied they could remain in Valinor, or return to Middle-earth if their home had been there.>LC-19.5 For the fa re-{born became a child indeed, enjoying once more all the wonder and newness of childhood; but slowly, and only after it had acquired a knowledge of the world and mastery of itself, its memory would awake; until, when the re-born elf}[housed] was a full-grown elf, it recalled all its former life, and then the old life, and the waiting, and the new life became one ordered history and identity. This memory would thus hold{ a double joy of childhood, and also} an experience and knowledge greater than the years of its body. In this way the violence or grief that the re-born had suffered was redressed and its being was enriched. For the Re-born LC-20b{are twice nourished, and twice parented, [Footnote to the text: In some cases a fa re-born might have the same parents again. For instance, if its first body had died in early youth. But this did not often happen; neither did a fa necessarily re-enter its own former kin, for often a great length of time passed before it wished or was permitted to return.] and} have two memories of the joy of awaking and discovering the world of living and the splendor of Arda. Their life is, therefore, as if a year had two springs and though an untimely frost followed after the first, the second spring and all the summer after were fairer and more blessed.
LC-27: I see your doubts about what is said in Shibboleth. But I dont think this will prevent us from using this text, since a similar statement is made in the text, and then alter revoked when Finw offers to stay in Mandos. What only might be considered new is that Manw said her present body will simply wither and pass away ... But this I think is not in line with everythink we know about Valinor, specially not with what was said in Aman and mortal Men. Therefore I think we should keep the concept of Mriel being rehoused in her old body. But everything from But after a while Ninna came to Manw ... to the LC-28 has been used in our editing of the Quenta Silmarillion. Therefore we must remove it here. Only the footnote concerning the name Friel we did not include, and since it bears some interesting infos about things discusse here, we should think about some place for it in the actual account (see my comment on LC-16).

LC-30: The only incarnates re-born are the Dwarves, and we do not know enough about that matter tu use this passage in connection with the Dwarves, so we have to remove it.

There is typo in the 6 s of Of the Severance of Marriage: between .. the Dead will not be and premitted ever to return ... is a superficial line break.

Another one 2 s before LC-22: between ...marriage proceeds from the fa and and resides ultimately in its will. ... a space is missing.

At the end of the third last before Namna Finw Mriello the ...the length of them time of Waiting ... must be ...the length of their time of Waiting ....

In Yavannas speech was not hron italised? If so we should italise erma.

The next 2 footnotes to the text are missing a fullstop and the end.

In the pronouncement of Nmo Mandos we have in the 2 a superficial line break between ... which disfigureth good and maketh it and seem hateful.

And in the over next ...I will proclaim now to your things both near and far. Must be ...I will proclaim now to you things both near and far.

Respectfully
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Old 02-22-2019, 09:43 PM   #3
gandalf85
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Great job Arcus! Another great chapter!

LC-01: I agree with Fin in keeping "Preamble"

LC-02: I don't think this title is necessary. A line break clearly shows the end of the preamble.

LC-07: We might as well use Inglorion since that is a name we are sure of.

LC-11: I think we should keep this. I forget the chapter, but I remember we kept in a discussion of airplanes which clearly belonged to an age later than the fourth. This comment could be attributed to a more modern scribe.

LC-12: I do not understand the need for this change either. Just because they were "open to" direct instruction doesn't mean they absolutely have to follow it. They are still free to choose.

LC-14: It would be weird to suddenly pivot to a point about Dwarven re-birth. This section starts with "Now the Eldar hold that to each elf-child a new fa is given..." so it seems the following discussion would pertain to elf children. This sentence very clearly is referring to re-birth through children, so I vote we remove it. It also confuses the issue by using "re-birth" to refer to the old conception of re-birth through children while elsewhere the word is used to mean the newer conception of re-birth.

LC-16: If the long section from But after a while Ninna came to Manw ...’ to LC-28 was already used and must be removed, I think this is the right place to add this footnote.

LC-17: I agree this needs to be moved. How about:

Quote:
...This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldali on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly.
LC-17 {For i}It is plain that the provision of a bodily house for a fa, and the union of fa with {hrondo}[hra], was committed by Eru to the Children, to be achieved in the act of begetting.} Also the Eldar say that in the begetting, and still more in the bearing of children, greater share and strength of their being, in mind and in body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children. For these reasons it came to pass that the Eldar brought forth few children...
LC-18: Are we changing "re-birth" to "re-housing" everywhere? If so, there are a few examples were "re-birth" has not been changed (for example, the two paragraphs after LC-18). If we are not changing it everywhere, why are we changing it here?

LC-19 and LC-20: I think LC-19 is a great find by Arcus, and Fin's change is some pretty clever editing. However, I do not see why we have to remove "twice nourished". In this context, they are first nourished as a baby and then their soul is nourished in Mandos.

LC-27: I agree that this can still be used. Manwe's original judgment is that Miriel cannot return, but things change after Finwe dies; also, Nienna's insistence probably helped him change his mind. Manwe's statement that "her present body will simply wither and pass away" seems contradictory; in LC-15 it is stated "...the body, deserted by the spirit, was dissolved. This happened swiftly in Middle-earth. In Aman only was there no decay." It's possible Manwe is just wrong, but that seems unlikely. I haven't gotten to this part in my review of the First Age material yet, I will make a comment about it in my Word document for future discussion.

Some more typos in addition to Fin's:

Quote:
wife and husband, albeit united, remain person’s individual
This should be "persons"

Quote:
Moreover, some fear in grief or weariness gave up hope
"fear" should be "far"

Quote:
To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one won’s will is wickedness.
"one won's" should be "one own's"

Quote:
such a house in all particulars as it had ere, evil befell it.
There should not be a comma.

Two footnotes are missing a period at the end, these footnotes end with:

Quote:
To no good purpose can such means be used, for they render all purposes evil
Quote:
and even so they were not fully revealed to the Ainur
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Old 02-23-2019, 05:54 PM   #4
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LC-14: Okay, I am not adamant on keeping this passage.

LC-17: I agree to the placement, but we should name the addition at this place LC-03.5.

LC-18: After rethinking the issue I belive we should change all occurenc of re-birth to re-housing and of re-born to re-housed. In that way it is much clearer and since that uncertainty is created by our using the earlier text in the later context.

LC-20: Was the time of waiting a kind of 'nourishing'? I don't think so. It feels more like purification and correction. Therefore I think we should change it.

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Old 02-23-2019, 06:12 PM   #5
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Thanks for the comments!

LC-01: This works, agreed to keep Preamble.

LC-02: Yeah this title is my own invention, so we can disregard it.

LC-07: Agreed to "Inglorion 'son of Inglor'"

LC-11: Very well we can leave it in.

LC-12: I was being overzealous in my editing, we can leave it as it is in the original text.

LC-14: I must agree with gandalf, forcing this argument to somehow apply to the dwarves makes no sense. For instance, the preceeding paragraphs are relating to the elvish ideas of death and rebirth, and the entire work is dealing specifically with the Elves, and there are no mentions of the dwarves anywhere. Therefore it cannot be said to be about the Dwarves. We must remove it.

LC-16: That the LC-27 section was included in the draft for Darkening of Valinor was not clear to me from any of the posts given in that thread. That chapter is a nightmare of textual soup at this point.... But I digress. I agree to include that there on principle, and therefore agree to its removal here, and if that is so, then this seems a good place for this footnote. Agreed.

LC-17: I agree to gandalf's placement of this sentence, but I would call this movement LC-03.5 since that is the place where it was moved.

LC-18: Agreed Fin, this is simpler and more thorough.

LC-19/20: Agreed to the changes Fin, but I as well agree with gandalf about the 'twice nourished.'

LC-27: See my comments on LC-16.

Typos: Thanks for catching them guys!
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Old 02-24-2019, 03:21 PM   #6
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LC-14: Okay, we leave it out.

LC-20: Okay, beside stay in Mandos, which I doubt to be any kind of nourishment we have the blessing by Manw. And since we removed all re-birth and re-born references the difference might be clear enough.

I think we are in agreement in all other points.

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Old 02-24-2019, 09:13 PM   #7
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Awesome! it can be marked Finished on the outline and I'll post the next one as soon as I can.
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