Gandalf, Moria, and Arrest

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Perhaps there is a perception problem here. I offered you the correct answer in my last reply, which you then quoted. Here, let me re-post it so that you may read it again. Several times if you'd like:

Not to the level of accuracy and imminence with which Aragorn suggested. The question remains unanswered. Aragorn could not have known without at least some inclination of truth that an ancient terror may be present in Moria powerful enough to kill Gandalf, and if he was to warn of the dangers of death in Moria, it would have been wiser to have expressed it for all the Company (Frodo nearly got killed by an orc spear, for instance, and Pippin could have fallen to his doom), and not just for the sake of Gandalf. He even suggested in Moria that Pippin should make use of Gandalf as the lead whilst they still had him to guide them. The level of accuracy in Aragorn's words is almost psychic.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Not to the level of accuracy and imminence with which Aragorn suggested. The question remains unanswered. Aragorn could not have known without at least some inclination of truth that an ancient terror may be present in Moria powerful enough to kill Gandalf, and if he was to warn of the dangers of death in Moria, it would have been wiser to have expressed it for all the Company (Frodo nearly got killed by an orc spear, for instance, and Pippin could have fallen to his doom), and not just for the sake of Gandalf. He even suggested in Moria that Pippin should make use of Gandalf as the lead whilst they still had him to guide them. The level of accuracy in Aragorn's words is almost psychic.

Do you simply argue for argument's sake, without foundation or research? The Gift of Foresight. Tolkien. Used it all the time. Correct foretelling of events. By many different characters. Throughout The Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings. Accurate. Foresight. A lot.

Mandos. Eol. Melian. Finrod. Malbeth (callled "the Seer" for a reason). Andreth. Elrond. Glorfindel. Galadriel. Dirhael and Ivorwen. Boromir and Faramir's dreams. Aragorn. Saruman. These are just off the top of my head, because the list of characters that exhibit the gift of foresight is extensive.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Do you simply argue for argument's sake, without foundation or research? The Gift of Foresight. Tolkien. Used it all the time. Correct foretelling of events. By many different characters. Throughout The Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings. Accurate. Foresight. A lot.

Mandos. Eol. Melian. Finrod. Malbeth (callled "the Seer" for a reason). Andreth. Elrond. Glorfindel. Galadriel. Dirhael and Ivorwen. Boromir and Faramir's dreams. Aragorn. Saruman. These are just off the top of my head, because the list of characters that exhibit the gift of foresight is extensive.

If Aragorn's foresight was so strong and well respected, why did Gandalf not take heed? And what happened to Gandalf's own foresight? Aragorn had nothing more than gut feel to guide him to make his eerily accurate prediction.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

If Aragorn's foresight was so strong and well respected, why did Gandalf not take heed? And what happened to Gandalf's own foresight? Aragorn had nothing more than gut feel to guide him to make his eerily accurate prediction.

Perhaps Gandalf did take heed; maybe he deemed the possibility of his death in Moria an acceptable risk as compared to the greater possibility of the Ring's capture on any of the alternative roads.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

Perhaps Gandalf did take heed; maybe he deemed the possibility of his death in Moria an acceptable risk as compared to the greater possibility of the Ring's capture on any of the alternative roads.

That is not the impression I got through his mood for much of the journey in Moria. He seemed as though he was content that he made the right call, but he knew Moria was not free. That all changed when the drums started to roll.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

That is not the impression I got through his mood for much of the journey in Moria. He seemed as though he was content that he made the right call. That all changed when the drums started to roll.

Perhaps. We're really all delving into our impressions and personal interpretations of Gandalf's inner thoughts, decisions, and motives, at this point.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

Perhaps. We're really all delving into our impressions and personal interpretations of Gandalf's inner thoughts, decisions, and motives, at this point.

I think Novices and Newcomers allows for some fun along the way. The more serious letter of the law stuff is perhaps more evident in the other sections.

[Belegorn]

I'd like to know where Aragorn forecasted Gandalf's "imminent doom". I know Aragorn mentioned his misgivings to Gandalf about going into Moria, but where is the passage of Aragorn saying, "If you go into Moria Gandalf, you will die."

Originally Posted by FotR; A Journey in the Dark

I will follow your lead now - if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!

Foresight is of two kinds according to Tolkien. The one involves pre-vision, such as the gods who were allowed to see parts of the future by Eru. Then there is forecasting about a future not seen, "the deduction of the wise" by which "any mind, whether of the Valar or the Incarnate, may deduce by reason what will or may come to pass" [Osanwe-kenta, note 6].

I do not think Saruman's staff breaking was symbolic of his powers being lost. When Gandalf's staff broke he was still using his powers to fight the Balrog.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I'd like to know where Aragorn forecasted Gandalf's "imminent doom". I know Aragorn mentioned his misgivings to Gandalf about going into Moria, but where is the passage of Aragorn saying, "If you go into Moria Gandalf, you will die."



Foresight is of two kinds according to Tolkien. The one involves pre-vision, such as the gods who were allowed to see parts of the future by Eru. Then there is forecasting about a future not seen, "the deduction of the wise" by which "any mind, whether of the Valar or the Incarnate, may deduce by reason what will or may come to pass" [Osanwe-kenta, note 6].

I do not think Saruman's staff breaking was symbolic of his powers being lost. When Gandalf's staff broke he was still using his powers to fight the Balrog.

Aragorn also says,''Farewell, Gandalf! Did I not say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware? Alas that I spoke true! What hope have we without you?''

The Balrog did not break Gandalf's staff through supernatural power in the way Gandalf the White did for Saruman's staff. Of course a staff may fall and crack open if it is just made of oak. But neverthless it does symbolise the loss of power if broken through show of power, sending the bearer reeling.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I do not think Saruman's staff breaking was symbolic of his powers being lost. When Gandalf's staff broke he was still using his powers to fight the Balrog.

I actually do think there's a difference between the two; I interpret the breaking of Gandalf's staff as being less symbolic than Saruman's, because the breaking of Saruman's staff was, specifically, a punative action taken by Gandalf against the rebel Istar. I think Gandalf's increased authority, especially considering his statement that he was "Saruman as he should have been," was given him by Eru in part specifically to address Saruman's rebellion and betrayal. Gandalf took precedence over and above Saruman, gave him the chance to repent, and then punished him and voided his power and authority.

Now, I don't believe the Istari's magical power came from their staves, but I do believe that (if you'll pardon the reference), as the wands in Harry Potter, the staves facilitated the exercise of their native power which, if you'll remember, had been restricted by their embodiment as material, biological beings, as well as by statute of the Valar. I think Saruman's power was lessened by the breaking of his staff, but that Gandalf's authority may have extended even so far as to actually limit Saruman's power further, as punishment for his crimes and to prevent him from using his considerable power to further damage the Free Peoples.

Keep in mind, this is just my personal interpretation.

The loss of Gandalf's staff, on the other hand, was as the result of no punative action, specifically meant to restrict or lessen his status, but likely as a result of Gandalf exercising such a great amount of power against his foe. It may very well have lessened his ability to use "magic," but I don't think it had the same effect as the loss of Saruman's staff had on him.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

I actually do think there's a difference between the two; I interpret the breaking of Gandalf's staff as being less symbolic than Saruman's, because the breaking of Saruman's staff was, specifically, a punative action taken by Gandalf against the rebel Istar. I think Gandalf's increased authority, especially considering his statement that he was "Saruman as he should have been," was given him by Eru in part specifically to address Saruman's rebellion and betrayal. Gandalf took precedence over and above Saruman, gave him the chance to repent, and then punished him and voided his power and authority.

Now, I don't believe the Istari's magical power came from their staves, but I do believe that (if you'll pardon the reference), as the wands in Harry Potter, the staves facilitated the exercise of their native power which, if you'll remember, had been restricted by their embodiment as material, biological beings, as well as by statute of the Valar. I think Saruman's power was lessened by the breaking of his staff, but that Gandalf's authority may have extended even so far as to actually limit Saruman's power further, as punishment for his crimes and to prevent him from using his considerable power to further damage the Free Peoples.

Keep in mind, this is just my personal interpretation.

The loss of Gandalf's staff, on the other hand, was as the result of no punative action, specifically meant to restrict or lessen his status, but likely as a result of Gandalf exercising such a great amount of power against his foe. It may very well have lessened his ability to use "magic," but I don't think it had the same effect as the loss of Saruman's staff had on him.

Well said, yet we need to stay with the thread question as much as possible.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

If Aragorn's foresight was so strong and well respected, why did Gandalf not take heed? And what happened to Gandalf's own foresight? Aragorn had nothing more than gut feel to guide him to make his eerily accurate prediction.

Seriously? Did anyone heed the Dooms of Mandos the Vala that all came horribly true? Do you think the gift of foresight is constant for every minute of one's day? The gift of foresight is a notable attribute of Elves and the Dunedain, including Aragorn's direct ancestors. It does not mean that such foresight will be heeded, or that every action comes with foresight. Cassandra was cursed with true foresight gone unheeded in classical mythos.

But you see, this is the aspect of your posting that I find insincere. You argue in circles without proper documentation or research, merely opinions -- even questioning the author himself.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Seriously? Did anyone heed the Dooms of Mandos the Vala that all came horribly true? Do you think the gift of foresight is constant for every minute of one's day? The gift of foresight is a notable attribute of Elves and the Dunedain, including Aragorn's direct ancestors. It does not mean that such foresight will be heeded, or that every action comes with foresight. Cassandra was cursed with true foresight gone unheeded in classical mythos.

But you see, this is the aspect of your posting that I find insincere. You argue in circles without proper documentation or research, merely opinions -- even questioning the author himself.

Most of the Company members showed some degree of foresight, in that they all feared the darkness of Moria, and wanted no part of it. Gandalf and Gimli were the exceptions.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Most of the Company members showed some degree of foresight, in that they all feared the darkness of Moria, and wanted no part of it. Gandalf and Gimli were the exceptions.

I'd actually say that Gimli was the only exception. Gandalf still didn't want to go through Moria, he simply decided to do so despite that fear. He wasn't the only one.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

I'd actually say that Gimli was the only exception. Gandalf still didn't want to go through Moria, he simply decided to do so despite that fear. He wasn't the only one.

Was Gandalf actually scared? Cautious and on guard yes, afraid, not so sure. He had been through Moria before, and spoke well of that accomplishment as though it was more than achievable second time round. Aragorn spoke of very evil memories in his visit to the mines, but he did not reveal what he saw.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

I'd actually say that Gimli was the only exception. Gandalf still didn't want to go through Moria, he simply decided to do so despite that fear. He wasn't the only one.

Tolkien said foresight had failed in him as to how the story should unfold after the Company were standing next to Balin's tomb in Moria. He did not pick up the story again for about another 2 years. He needed a way to get rid of Gandalf in order to have him used elsewhere, and not just as the guide for Frodo. I'm not even sure the words of warning from Aragorn before entering Moria were yet fully mapped out by Tolkien in terms of an outcome for Gandalf further down the line. What I do know is he wanted the Company to go through Moria and have Gandalf part ways with them. So Tolkien himself was not going to allow the characters to argue and get worked up so much as to cause mutiny and a break up of the Fellowship prior to entering Moria. Even Boromir was forced to go against his will into Moria thanks to the wolves.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Most of the Company members showed some degree of foresight, in that they all feared the darkness of Moria, and wanted no part of it. Gandalf and Gimli were the exceptions.

What has that got to do with what you were trying to argue about? Again, you are talking in circles. You questioned Aragorn's foresight, and I provided ample characters who at one time or another exhibited true, uncanny and accurate foresight. Also, trepidation or fear does not equal foresight.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

What has that got to do with what you were trying to argue about? Again, you are talking in circles. You questioned Aragorn's foresight, and I provided ample characters who at one time or another exhibited true, uncanny and accurate foresight. Also, trepidation or fear does not equal foresight.

Of course I see that Aragorn showed at least some insight and foresight on Moria, having been in there himself previously. But I don't believe he had a gift for it beyond his Ranger instincts and common sense. The Company feared the darkness of Moria, suggesting that they suspected great evil remained there. A form of low level foresight.