Legolas shooting stuff....

[Thengal]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but nearly every time Legolas shoots at something he shoots it through the throat. For instance, the hill where they get attacked by wolves and in Moria at Balin's tomb. Maybe this happens just in FOTR. Is this just suppose to show his marksmenship or what?

[Corwyn Celesil]

I am no expert in archery, but perhaps shooting someone through the throat is a more sure way of making sure he dies?

[VanimaEdhel]

Refresh my memory: do they mention this expressly in the books or are you just taking this from the movie?

Well, ultimately, either way, shooting someone in the throat would probably be a very proficient way to kill him/her. Although it's a smaller area than the chest, an expert marksman such as Legolas could be pretty sure of making the target if he had a shot. When you are hit in the throat, you tend to die pretty quickly, if not instantaneously. Even if you do survive for a time, there is almost no chance of ultimate survival, especially in Middle Earth (no emergency rooms). I would surmise that, when possible, Legolas would choose such a target. Also, it is a place that tended to have gaps in armor (between the helmet and the chestplate), so you could find a place to aim that would hit skin rather than metal.

[Thengal]

It's in the book, but what about the part with the wolves since they have no armor? Also, I mean every time, come on! Why not through the heart if he's such a good archer.

I'm not sure they would die so soon if you hit them in the throat. They wouldn't be able to talk and would eventually die of blood loss, but it's not as a quick a kill as other places.

[Finwe]

Hitting someone through the heart with the arrow is a lot harder than it seems. Believe me, I take archery, although I haven't tried to shoot anyone recently. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] You've got something called a ribcage, that gets in the way. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Whereas with the throat, there aren't any bones that could deflect the arrow, and since the jugular vein is at the throat, the likelihood of the victim dying is much much higher. You don't want to wound your opponents, when you're fighting like Legolas, you want to kill them. If you wound them, there is always the possibility of them making it back to their master, and reporting essential information. You don't want that.

[Thengal]

I really don't think it's a matter of what kind of damage the arrow will do, but don't you think it's interesting that it's always through the throat? I mean the wolf jumps at Legolas and his whole underbelly is exposed, but he shoots it through the throat and the Moria orcs are shorter than him so have smaller necks therefore wouldn't it be easier to shoot for a bigger target than downwards at a small target.

[Finwe]

Nope. It would still be much easier to shoot the opponent through the throat. In the case of the Orcs, they don't have armor over their throats. They have armor in all the other places.

As for the Wargs, like I said in my previous post, Legolas has a much better chance of killing the beast if he shoots it through the throat. Even if he nicks the jugular, the animal will bleed to death. If he nicks its underbelly, the only thing that will happen is that the hairy thing will go mad with pain, and start attacking even more fiercely.

When you're a warrior, the main thing on your mind during a fight is to inflict the most damage on your opponent. Legolas was a warrior, and Tolkien knew that. That's why it seems to be a coincidence that he constantly shoots things through the throat.

[Thengal]

I know what the idea of combat is and.....
Nevermind we'll just have to agree to disagree. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[doug*platypus]

Ribcage.

Skull.

There you go.

[The Dark Elf]

that still doesnt explain the original question. how does legolas manage to get every single shot right in the throat. im sure hes a great marksman but nobody's that good not even an elf.

[Finwe]

Oh, but they are. Legolas was at least 50 years old at the time of the War of the Ring. Let's say, that would give him about 30 or so years of practice with the bow and arrow. Anyone with 30-odd years of archery practice is going to be damn good. Even Olympic-level athletes haven't practiced for that long, and look how good they are. Elves have a natural advantage over Humans because they have much keener eyesight, better hearing, and they have much more time to practice.

[Kronos]

Nope. It would still be much easier to shoot the opponent through the throat. In the case of the Orcs, they don't have armor over their throats. They have armor in all the other places.

I think the history of warfare shows this not to be the case. Besides which if you have powerful enough a bow, like the English longbow for example, then the presence of armour is of less concern. The arrows will still be deadly at medium to short range.

In large scale battles an archer is not likely to target a specific body part, apart from maybe the centre of the body. Rate of fire is more important in that scenario than accuracy and aiming at the throat all the time would reduce that rate of fire.

Further to even be comfortably sure of hitting the throat you would need to be at quite close range, and as already described, the armour is less of an issue then. Far better to aim for a target that you are at least 5 times more likely to hit (on surface area alone), if you do hit it will nearly always puncture a vital organ and at the least incapacitate the man, and if you miss still has a good chance of hitting the legs, arms or head.

[Lalaith]

Fifty? He was a lot older than that - probably a couple of thousand at least. Remember at one point he calls the rest of the fellowship "children", even Aragorn and Gimli who were no spring chickens..

[Legolas]

Legolas was at least 50 years old at the time of the War of the Ring.

One would presume is at least twice as old as Aragorn because of the way he called the Fellowship (-Gandalf) children. Aragorn was about 90 at the time.

This is more of an N&N type thread. Moving there.

[Lalaith]

Hah! Found it! I knew there was some more specific reference to Legolas' age somewhere. When looking at the mounds of kings in Rohan, he calls 500 years "but a little while". So he must be considerably older than that. I'd guess he was born sometime at the end of the second or beginning of the third age. His father Thranduil fought in the battle of the Last Alliance alongside his own father...

[Leyrana Silumiel]

In regards to the original line of questioning--how Legolas could get whatever he was shooting through the throat every time? Well, Tolkien mentions (I can't remember in which book--could have been LOTR or one of the History of Lord of the Rings books) that Legolas is one of the best shots with a bow in Middle-Earth. And, add on all the practice he's likely had, and you definitely don't want to face HIM in a battle.

He was also surmised (I say "surmised" because I can't remember if Tolkien said this or not) that he was basically captain of the guards of Mirkwood, i.e. he fought for years against the dark, evil things in his homelands. I'm sure he had plently of practice with his weaponry to know enough of what he was doing.

And the sharp eyesight likely helps. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

How do we know he hit them through the throat every time? We only have a couple of examples.

And Finwe is right. Elves really can get to be that good. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Thengal]

I agree that elves can get very good, but not perfect.

Let's say that a warg is jumping towards you, and it's totally exposed to an arrow anywhere, do you take the shot that you can't miss and would definitly slow him down if not kill him? Or would you shoot at his neck, a shot that has a better chance of killing it IF it hits? If you shoot for the neck and miss, your left to wonder why you didn't take the easy shot as the warg mauls you.

[Legolas]

Remember, this is the elf that shot a Nazgul out of the sky. Shooting that warg must've seemed like point-blank range.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:35 PM January 14, 2004: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Thengal]

He didn't shoot the Nazgul through the throat though did he?

[doug*platypus]

elves can get very good, but not perfect

Based on... your extensive knowledge of elves, from some source other than Tolkien ?!?!

The elves were imbued with many qualities that may seem unnatural to boring old humans like us. Marksmanship was definitely one of them. Tolkien himself had something like an unexplained desire to shoot well with a bow [Letter #somethingorother], and so I daresay that if he wanted Legolas to be a perfect shot, then a perfect shot he could be!!

Besides, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Imrahil, Faramir, Éomer are all exceptional fighters. If they weren't, it would be unrealistic for them to survive so long and through so many battles. Legolas' precision shooting makes his character more believable, not less, IMHO. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

He didn't shoot the Nazgul through the throat though did he?

No, but had he been ten yards away (like I suspect the wolf was), it would have been just as easy. The Nazgul was very far off in the air which takes even more accuracy since a) the Nazgul was undoubtedly not stationary and b) he was shoot against gravity. He had been shooting a bow since he was old enough to hold one, I'm sure. That's quite a long time. At youngest, we presume he's twice as old as Aragorn, and he could've even been a few thousand years old.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 5:58 PM January 14, 2004: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[The Dark Elf]

I withdraw my statement.

[Thengal]

"Based on... your extensive knowledge of elves, from some source other than Tolkien ?!?!"

Doug Platypus,I don't think it's appropriate, or smart, to insult someone you don't even know over something I posted in the NOVICES area and didn't even realize I was going to have to aruge with someone over a really insignificant question that just popped into my head while reading those chapters in FOTR

[Finwe]

Easy. We don't need to get into any needless arguments. That's for the Movies forum. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Honestly, how do you know that Elves can't be perfect? As much as it hurts me to say ( [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]), Middle-earth is a fictional world, and its equally fictional characters ostensibly have fictional abilities, like being able to hit a running Warg in the throat at point-blank range, and bringing it down. Elves had thousands of years to practice. Do you honestly think that you can practice for thousands of years and still not be perfect?

[Thengal]

Good call Finwe, your right. My bad.

[Alchisiel]

I would like to quote from the movie if I may and I believe also this line was in the Two Towers book. As Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas were chasing after the Urukhai, they stopped for a moment and Aragorn put his ear to the ground and could hear the footsteps of the Urukhai. He says that they are half a day away from them. In another scene (and in the book) Legolas scouts ahead a bit and Aragorn asks him "What do your fair elf eyes see? Which Legolas replies "They are taking the hobbits to Isengard. Now that's pretty good eyesight folks, to be able to see a half day's travel away from you. I think that's how he always hit his target. Even in the movie at the Battle for Helm's Deep the other elves always hit what they were aiming at. I just think that the elves are that doggone good.

I know in mid-evil times little boys began training with a bow and arrow as soon as they were able to work it. It was probably the same with the elves.

He doesn't ALWAYS shoot things through the throat. If anyone here saw ROTK then you know that he tried to shoot one of the dead soldiers on the "Paths of the Dead" through the head. Just thought I'd add my thoughts to this thread.

[Rider of Rohan]

Maybe the fact that the throat shot is mentioned is that it was an exceptionally good shot...even for Legolas. The throat is a really good place to hit someone why not mention it whenever a character scores a critical hit so to speak. Also it would be nice to here from someone who has medical or combat experience to shed light on this issue.

[Alchisiel]

I have found something Thengal that may help you understand why Legolas was a good shot. It's a paragraph from The Hobbit. I believe that Legolas was from Mirkwood is that right? If so this paragraph would explain things then:
Chapter 9-Barrels Out of Bond-
"There was no thought of a fight. Even if the dwarves had not been in such a state that they were actually glad to be captured, their small knives, the only weapons they had, would have been of no use against the arrows of the elves that could hit a bird's eye in the dark...."
The elves mentioned here are the Wood-Elves from Mirkwood. So it is possible that's why he could off all the fantastic throat shots.

[Earendilyon]

If humans can do such things as experts in the martial arts can do, I think Elves could hit someone/something in the throat with an arrow any time they wanted.
I can't remember though, having read that Legolas shot someone/something through the throat. Could someone provide a quote for this?

[Amariden Ravenhill]

Hmmm...this is interesting. I'm a Hobbit....but I know quite a bit about elvish folk. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta. Hannon le, mellon-nin. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Arwen Evenstar]

Yes, shooting them through the neck is a pretty sure way of making it die.
I have a bow, and my family is really into bow hunting, though I just like shooting targets and stuff. By-the-way, do you know what`s really fun? Getting a picture of The Eye of Sauron, taping it to a target, and shooting at it! Pictures of Saruman, orcs, Gollum, and the Nazgul are fun, too. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

The interesting thing is, that is the only way that I can shoot a bull's eye. I have to visualize the Eye of Sauron on the target, with the exact center of the eye right on the bull's eye. Rather interesting...


Rider of Rohan, see some of my previous posts. I don't consider myself an infallible medical authority, but I do have a considerable knowledge about the matter, especially knowledge about "old-fashioned" combat. A shot through the throat gives you the best chance of killing someone, because, even if you don't get them precisely through the throat, you still have a good chance of grazing or slicing their jugular vein. Once your jugular vein is cut, you're pretty much done for, except maybe if you get extremely quick and advanced medical help, which, I daresay, Orcs and Wargs didn't have.

[rutslegolas]

i guess you are right finwe

but then he could also have shot people through their head that could have killed them instantly or atleast damaged them

and shooting on the head he could get a larger surface area to shoot at and thus he could be more accurate

hope i am not wrong?

[Eorl of Rohan]

As far as I can see, this topic is going in circles.

rutslegolas, your questions were already answered by Finwe.

[Kransha]

Actually, just to affirm Finwe's point, I will comment.

After a bit of medical studies, I can say that the "shoot-through-the-heart-means-death" thing is highly overexaggerated. The chance of death is more likely when shot through the throat. If Legolas shot at the heart, he might hit a rib or other organ, even with his perfect aim. The throat only has skin to protect it and would instatly kill most. That should answer your question.

[Finwe]

I'm getting slightly ticked off here. How many times do I have to repeat that Orcs and Wargs have things called BONES?!?! If you shoot something in the head, there is a very good chance that it will glance off the bone. In the throat, there is next to no bone, compared to other areas.

[rutslegolas]

soory finwe you are tottaly right

i think i jsut missed the point about the skull bones