Myths Transformed, part of the Canon, yea or nay.

[Mithadan]

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Myths Transformed is the most difficult segment of HoME to incorporate into the Sil, etc. I'm on the fence re: using it in the Canon. If I read prior posts correctly, Saulotus favors including it and Lindil would prefer not to. Lets hash this out and decide now.

As with any portion of this effort, everyone's invited. This shouldn't just be Lindil, Saulotus and Mithadan's pet project. Lets hear it !!!

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Orald]

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Re: Myths Transformed, part of the Canon, yea or

I sorry but I haven't even read it. What is it on? Is it on the different race histories or what?

</p>

[lindil]

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Re: Myths Transformed, part of the Canon, yea or nay.

Lindil says let's leave canon aside for the moment and go for a Gondolin chapter. There are only a few ways MT would possibly impact that story at all so we can easily do both versions as , there will be only the most minor differences in the twain.

I propose leaving formal canon discussion to such time as there are more than say at least 12. I would hope that a few good chapters such as Gondolin. A new OF THE COMING OF MEN TO THE WEST [w/ Finrod and andreth from X and dwarves and men from XII] and 1 or 2 others[ perhaps a MT sun and moon and the hiding of Valinor a non MT would be enough for people to look at and then we could have a far less hypothetical debate.

But if I Had to give a straight yea or nay now I would say Nay.
I have procedded w/ plans and proposals because I got the distinct impression Saulotus while favoring MT was willing to work out side of the framework for awhile and see what came up and that you were highly sceptical to the point of a no vote. My apologies if I over read into the posts.

As another option we can look for chapters that require no decision on MT [such as Maeglin] for the time being.
But I want to reiterate that I formally think we should postpone bigger discussions such as canon till there are more of us and until through working on a few chapters we get a visceral sense of just how it will [ or could ] effect the Silm.

lindil

</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Myths Transformed, part of the Canon, yea or nay.

For Durelen: Myths Transformed is a segment of HoME 10, where JRRT started to rethink several core concepts of his mythos. Issues addressed include changing the mythos from flat earth to round earth, changing the origin of orcs and the timing of the arrival of men, etc. Interesting stuff and potentially tough to reconcile with the existing Sil.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: Myths Transformed, part of the Canon, yea or nay.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Interesting stuff and potentially tough to reconcile with the existing Sil.<hr></blockquote>
I think this is untrue.

As an example:
For Mithadan; who I know has access to Pictures by JRRT please look at the illustration Taniquentil Plate #31 and describe for me another answer as to how my earlier statement long ago concerning the retention of the Two Trees is perfectly acceptable; as is the construction of the New Sun and Moon from them, while also keeping the Myths Transformed concept of the Sun and Moon created at the beginning.

Looking at the picture; several facts come to light:
From MT and SIL; there is heavy cloud cover which the newly created Sun and Moon burn away.
This agrees with the picture in that heavy clouds are shown.
From SIL; the Sun and Moon are in the atmosphere (aka Ilmen)and agrees with the picture.
From MT; the Sun and Moon are above the Ilmen.

I have suggested earlier that the Sun and Moon creatd from the Two Trees were created for Valinor, not ME as replacement lights. There is simply put; TWO sets of Suns and Moons, one exzclusively for Valinor, and one for ME.
BTW: this also addresses the concept of 'tainted' light and the pure light of the Sun and Moon from Melkor's assault on Arien.

There is text concerning views looking at the Calicircya concerning lights of Valinor.

The 'Dome of Varda' was constructed for Valinor as an upper defense and was adorned with representations of the stars outside.

From this; one essential concept of MT is laid to rest, using knowledge and text (and pictorial study) as a further defense of the MT concepts as valid.

With this I see no need to even alter\omit text that would seemingly cause contradiction.

Just one example of how MT concepts can be integrated without difficulty.

</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Myths Transformed, part of the Canon, yea or nay.

I don't suggest that Myths Transformed can't be reconciled with the Sil; it can. However, MT does change Sil. in many ways and this can be very difficult to accept for those who have been reading Sil. for 23 years. This is what I meant by &quot;tough to reconcile&quot;. I agree that JRRT definitely planned on making many or perhaps even all of the changes contained in MT.

One of the reservations which I adverted to when starting is that its not entirely clear what would have been changed and what would have been retained. Examples: I think JRRT wanted to go with the Round Earth conception; I think JRRT was unhappy with orcs deriving from elves and wished to change that idea; I think JRRT had to retain the two trees. MT represents his attempt to brainstorm these issues. But consider the difficulties he had with the opening chapters of LoTR. The Hobbit had to be changed to &quot;make it fit&quot;. The storyline went through various shifts until he was happy. Its the details or holes in MT that may have shifted one way or another. Dome vs. clouds or mirk; Maiar mating with beasts to make orcs; these are details which may or may not have been final conceptions. Anyway, enough, they are substantially the only MT conceptions we have (with some variants).

The timeline appears faithful to MT/Sil. Hard work pays off. I note you have adopted the Celeborn/Galadriel variant where they take ship to ME. Do you also adopt the variant that they do not ever reside in Beleriand?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Myths Transformed, part of the Canon, yea or n

MT sounds to much like UT and all of the different variations that it had in it. By this alone it should be left out of the main part of the new Silm. and kept to at most an Appendices.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Myths Transformed, part of the Canon, yea or n

Maybe, maybe not. It is where JRRT wanted to go, at least at that time. Its in HoME 10 if I didn't mention it.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Myths Transformed, part of the Canon, yea or n

He may have wanted to go there, but he didn't quite get there, that is why it is only in his notes and not in the material that he wanted to be published

</p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: Myths Transformed, part of the Canon, yea or n

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> He may have wanted to go there, but he didn't quite get there, that is why it is only in his notes and not in the material that he wanted to be published<hr></blockquote>
No offense (really!); but I think you need to SERIOUSLY reconsider this statement.

</p>

[lindil]

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Re: Myths Transformed, , yea or nay

to Saulotus:
I am not agaist using LETTERS,PICTURES ,ADV OF T. BOMBADIL OR P. BAYNES MAP OF ME or any other relatively obscure source to support or even decide the canon issues.However having the support of any source for JRRT's final conception is still very different from having enough of JRRT's words to include it in the Silm. and this is were I wonder [ I say wonder because I have not studied the manifold issues enough to say oneway or another] if the MT ideas would have enough textual support to leave a tale as rich and beautiful as what we have in 77 or even more than vaugely worded hints.

All that momentarily aside , I propose again the strategic compromise of postponing the canon decision by revising : Fall of Gondolin, Of the Sun and Moon and the hiding of Valinor, and one other {maybe beren and luthien or earendil or Of Men or ? }.each IN TWO VERSIONS [ a MT and a rev. 77] [although I think it would Fall of Gondolin would only need one version w/ footnote or 2 to explain the possible differences.

W e could then take the texts send them [or notices] far and wide on the net in order to let anyone who is interested have time to digest it and then summon all interested parties to a Folkmoot, and hash out the major decisions from a forum that is somewhat larger than 4 <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> .

I further propose that Saulotus be given cheif editorial responsibility for Sun and Moon [or whatever chapters/texts are acceptable ] . If we are as a group willing to go forward w/ a few chapters [ and 1 or 2 in 2 versions] , then I am definitely willing to pitch in on a MT chapter or 2 , even though I [being one of those for whom 77 has been canon for 23 years] am dubious on the MT issue , as never100% ratified by JRRT [ then again alot of things were not <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> .

what say ye?

lindil


</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Myths Transformed, , yea or nay

The MT choice is unavoidable for some of the chapters you have selected, particularly Of the Sun and the Moon and the Hiding of Valinor, and Of Men. MT impacts those chapters directly. Unless I misunderstand and you propose we create &quot;test&quot; MT versions of those chapters.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Orald]

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Re: Myths Transformed, , yea or nay

To Saulotus, I considered it the first time, but all I said was that Tolkien did not publish them because he didn't want too. Ok, maybe he did wnat to publish it, but he didn't because it conflicted too much with what was already out. So he obviously tried to change the story even more so it would work out more the way he wanted it to. It just seems that he never quite finished.

I think the basic problem with taking stories from different books is running into inconsistencies. It may not be noticed right away, but they are there. But I like this idea of prototype versions.

</p>

[lindil]

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Re: Myths Transformed, , yea or nay

To Durelen, there will be no perfect canon of the Silm in JRRT's words we can only do as well as the texts and our judgement allow. It could be [although I have my doubts , that incredibly good inspired forgeries [to use M. Martinez's phrase] can be created by groups or individuals over time. But this is not canon in any currently accepted sense of the word. It is fan-fiction or at best an eclectic blend of FF and canon - this is not a bad thing , I doubt however that it would be accepted as Canon by the greater tolkien internet community unless a large # of folks worked together on it's creation , and prob not even then.

That is why I [ the great proponent of canon I have been ] am suggesting as the best thing I thing I think we can do now is prepare samples of the 2 major types of potential canon [traditional - if you will and MT or perhaps better stated as early and late]

Hopefully Mithadan I have finally cleared any remaining fog away from my suggestion, of 5 drafts as a prelude to soliciting wider GTIC [greater Tolkien Internet Community]:

+++ Upon considering Mithadan's suggestion from another thread, that FoG is perhaps too big a peice to start chewing on I formally recommend switchingFog w/ Of the darkening of Valinor [w/ an eye to using the material from I [BoLT I] so the proposal is now :

1 &amp; 2 ?] Of the Darkening ofValinor [ DoV] would be nice as we could incorporate another lost tales gem [the procession to the feast of the three houses of the eldar to Tanique til ] which I recall as being quite beautiful , though I havn't read it in a while w/ that thought in mind.
+++Saulotus wouldMT have much effect on this chapter ?

3 &amp; 4 ] Sun and Moon [ or some other chapter that will graphically display just what a MT and non MT version * * * * * * * * would look, read and feel like ].


5 ] Fall of Gondolin [ 1 version w/ footnotes to show any nec. alternate readings for MT ]

Anyway , if we can finish DoV Gondolin or some other 1 st chapter we can reward ourselves by having a mini-moot/feast to pick the next effort.

At this stage we seem to have 2 yea's for the above proposal [in it's FoG as the first attempt form at least] from Durlen and Lindil , what say the esteemed Saulotus and Mithadan ?

lindil

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/10/01 1:09:32 pm

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Myths Transformed, , yea or nay

Yea as to 1 - 4. As to 5, see my suggestion in the other thread re Beren and Luthien rather than FoG. Discuss?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>