Riddles in the Downs

[Galadriel55]

Since no one posted for quite a while, I'll go.


Brother killed with Androg's fate;
Father broken with despair and regret.
I had to choose between
Approval and my heart that was keen.
A descendant of mine was named
After one by the miserable betrayed.
The one who was named after me
Has a relative that was dived for in the sea.

I hope its not too obvious!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Very nice one! And good to see this thread back up...

I would say the answer is Faramir.

Brother killed with Androg's fate; - Boromir, by arrows, like Andróg was
Father broken with despair and regret. - Denethor, of course
I had to choose between
Approval and my heart that was keen. - the question of Frodo and the Ring
A descendant of mine was named
After one by the miserable betrayed. - if I recall correctly, Faramir's son was named Barahir, who was betrayed by Gorlim
The one who was named after me
Has a relative that was dived for in the sea. - I am sort of wondering about this one. Obviously the person in question is Faramir, son of Peregrin; but whoever is his relative remains a mystery to me. There are those Tooks spoken of as going to the sea, but that does not really sound like the case, also the relationship is rather distant. Unless, I think there is some Took whose name was Pearl, so if it is metaphorical... I don't recall how distant such relationship would be, though, either.

[Galadriel55]

I new it would be too easy. The riddle didn't last one day....
Pearl is Pippin's sister, according to the faily trees. This clue was meant to confuse people and make them think that the person in question has something to do with the Sea.
And it was Faramir's grandson that was Barahir. I don't think that his son's name is even mentioned. It doesn't really matter, though, since the general idea stay the same.
Ask us, Legate of Amon Lanc

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And it was Faramir's grandson that was Barahir. I don't think that his son's name is even mentioned. It doesn't really matter, though, since the general idea stay the same.

Well, at least in the prologue to LotR it says that it was his son... (in my version at least)

Anyway, will post my riddle in a short time... need to come up with something worthwhile

[Pitchwife]

It wasn't too easy or obvious at all, G55 - Legate is just darn good at this kind of riddling. In fact, I think it was very nice, alluding to various parts of LotR from foreword to family trees and even the Silmarillion, I like that. Looking forward to your next one!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Pitchwife is right, Galadriel55. Just like he said, it was really well-created and in fact, at one point I felt almost sorry for answering it so early, but then on the other hand, you may find it as a positive sign that the reason why I came to answer it was because it caught my attention - because it was interesting. So I think you can take it positively I think riddles like this are nice to have around.

Here goes mine, then... I have found out that it is difficult to get back to the riddle-making business after a long time when I have not been doing it, but hope you are going to like it nevertheless

In twilight born my mother was,
her path did end by Western shores
after the mountains shook, before
the darkness came in times of yore
and after glory came the loss.

Close to the King was she of late,
but long before, in tide of fate
I have been thrown into the war
in blood I've seen the Dark One's fall
when Men of Light have earned his hate.

I've been a friend to all the guards
of light - of peace - till I betray'd
them in the vicious nightly raid
when fear was piercing all their hearts.

They came and went - I have remained.

Happy riddling!

[Galadriel55]

Now that's what I call a nice confusing riddle! There are so many (or at least it seems so) symbolical clues that its hard to tell what to take literally!

The first stanza reminds me of the Fall of Numenor. I have no clue who the "mother" can be, though.
The last stanza sounds like Maeglin - betrayal during a raid. But he didn't remain. That last line makes me thik this is not about any character, but rather a thing or concept. But then how can it have a mother?

Total nonsense, I know. But it might give some ideas to someone smarter.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I have found out that it is difficult to get back to the riddle-making business after a long time when I have not been doing it, but hope you are going to like it nevertheless

Well, your encrypting skills are obviously not diminished in the least!

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That last line makes me thik this is not about any character, but rather a thing or concept. But then how can it have a mother?

No nonsense at all! I think you're on to something here, and the solution could perhaps be something like a geographical feature, like, say, a river or a road; in which case the 'mother' would be metaphorical (e.g. a river's source could be considered its mother), and the 'King' may be as well (not necessarily though). 'After the mountains shook' and 'the Dark One's fall' sound very much like the War of Wrath and the drowning of Beleriand, but beyond that, I'm groping in the dark. Very intriguing, this!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Now that's what I call a nice confusing riddle! There are so many (or at least it seems so) symbolical clues that its hard to tell what to take literally!

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Well, your encrypting skills are obviously not diminished in the least!

Thanks! Just don't let the initial puzzling character of the riddle chase you away. In fact, to give you some hope, among your conclusions (of both of you), there are some good points heading exactly in the right direction, and some at least partially (there are, of course, also some things in which you are totally off, but there is surprising amount of things in which you are "buzzing around" the right way of interpretation - usually people's first tries are totally off). Just keep going on

[Galadriel55]

The riddle also reminds me of Feanor.
Twilight - Miriel was born in ME when there were only stars
Her path did end by western shores - she died in Aman, ie in the West
After glory came the loss - Feanor brought the glory of Valinor to an end, and loss could refer to either the Trees, the Noldor going away, the dtolen Silmarili, or something else that I can't think of at the moment.
Close to the King was she of late - Miriel was Finwe's wife
I have been thrown into the war - Feanor started the war
in blood I've seen the Dark One's fall - I don't know how that works
when Men of Light have earned his hate - I don't know how this fits either, since Men didn't exist yet

I've been a friend to all the guards
of light - of peace - well, he was friendly to the Valar once, and he stored light in the Silmarili that are very hard to break - he put a "guarding wall" around the light
till I betray'd
them in the vicious nightly raid - he attacked the Teleri
when fear was piercing all their hearts - when Morgoth destroyed the Trees and killed Finwe
They came and went - I have remained - the Silarili still exist, although they are separated.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Unfortunately, yes, as you said yourself, there are things which wouldn't work. Nonetheless, a brave attempt. Also a note to the last verse, which I might bring to your attention (and perhaps it might be helpful for you if I say that), in your interpretation "I have remained" would suddenly mean switching from Fëanor to the Silmarils as his creation, but I can assure you that "I have remained" refers still directly and exactly to the "speaker" of the riddle.

But go on, go on, even unsuccessful attempts bring you closer to finding the answer...

[Galadriel55]

OK, then!
If the riddle is referring to a place, like Pitch said, I'd say it's Drengist, because it begins in Dor Lomen - the land of twilight, and it flows to the western shore of Beleriand.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, care to elaborate more about what exactly are all the events, Kings, Men, guards etc. in such case? Then I could show you more clearly why it is wrong But no, that was just a remark, it is simply not the right answer. Note at least one thing: if it was indeed Drengist, then if you look at the riddle, it actually says "my mother" was born in twilight, and likewise it was her path that ended by western shores, so - if it is Drengist that begins in Dor-Lómin and ends in the west, as you say, then Drengist would actually have to be the mother, and now the question is, who is the "child"? Because that is the answer we are looking for.

But anyway, I think you are somehow hovering around the right path to find the answer...

[Galadriel55]

just a free association without any reasoning behind it...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nope, not him either.

All right, a hint (or sort of, a suggestion): I recommend focusing on the first two posts you and Pitch have made, there in some of the speculations you were aiming in the quite right direction. Also be aware of the thing I said when you guessed Drengist, remembering that we are looking for the child of the mother, not really for the mother herself (although of course it is related...)

[Galadriel55]

Either the thing or the mother is a geographical location/feature, and that's the farthest that I got to. I have no clue how a place can betray, unless its something like someone good who's hiding being revealed or a ship going against the current of a river might be late... or something in the same spirit. I can't think of anything like that, though, that would remain. Any ideas, Pitchwife?

[Pitchwife]

OK, results of my brainstorming so far:

Originally Posted by the Riddler of Amon Lanc

In twilight born my mother was,
her path did end by Western shores
after the mountains shook, before
the darkness came in times of yore
and after glory came the loss.

This made me think of the River/Gulf of Lhûn, which I presume was one of the tributaries of Gelion before the drowning of Beleriand; in which case the 'mother' would be the tributary of the Lhûn which springs from the Hills of Evendim (which is another word for twilight). After the mountains shook (i.e. after the War of Wrath) the Lhûn issued directly into the Sea (=Western shores). Before the darkness came etc. could refer to the decline of the Kingdom of Arnor - which however didn't affect the course of the River, so ???

Originally Posted by the same

Close to the King was she of late
but long before, in tide of fate
I have been thrown into the war
in blood I've seen the Dark One's fall
when Men of Light have earned his hate.

Annúminas, the royal city of Arnor, was right on the other side of the hills; IIRC it was sacked by the Witch-King (=the Dark One) in his war against Arnor; the fall could refer to his overcoming in the Battle of Fornost, when Eärnur, Captain and later King of Gondor, earned his special hatred.

Originally Posted by still the same

I've been a friend to all the guards
of light - of peace - till I betray'd
them in the vicious nightly raid
when fear was piercing all their hearts.

They came and went - I have remained.

Here my first thoughts were the bridge of Osgiliath, or maybe the gates of Minas Tirith (building on the vicious nightly raid), but in both cases the guards survived while the object that was their friend didn't, so meh. In any case I find it impossible to reconcile this stanza with my interpretation of the first and second without an amount of stretching that would get me lynched if this was Werewolf - so I'm still pretty much lost.
Ah well, maybe this gives you some thoughts which will eventually lead us to the solution. Good luck!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Pitch

This made me think of the River/Gulf of Lhûn, which I presume was one of the tributaries of Gelion before the drowning of Beleriand; in which case the 'mother' would be the tributary of the Lhûn which springs from the Hills of Evendim (which is another word for twilight). After the mountains shook (i.e. after the War of Wrath) the Lhûn issued directly into the Sea (=Western shores). Before the darkness came etc. could refer to the decline of the Kingdom of Arnor - which however didn't affect the course of the River, so ???

Whatever this is, my guess is that "the darkness" and "after glory came the loss" refers to the fate of Númenor, which also changed the shape of the world. So in that case we would be looking for a geographical feature (the "mother") that reached the western coast only in the Second Age.

I haven't thought of what it could be, though.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think you are getting quite close.

Just a remark, related to what Nerwen suggested (and what Pitch mentioned too, only I didn't realise he might have meant it that way), if you are trying to make some timeframe out of what is said, the riddle is not supposed to mean that the path of the mother ended by the western shores between the time when the mountains shook and after the darkness came, there suddenly was another path appearning or anything like that. It was simply (perhaps in somewhat confusing way, I apologise) meant to say that the time when her path came to end by western shores is defined by two things: it was after the mountains shook, and before the darkness came; they are two descriptions of the same period. Sometime in this period, it came to be that the mother's path ended by the western shores, as in, a finished process (not like that it ended somewhere between these times and later it suddenly ended elsewhere - that even wouldn't make sense, especially if we take the mother literally). Hope it is clear what I mean...

[Nerwen]

Okay, thanks for the clarification, Legate.

[Blind Guardian]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I think you are getting quite close.

Just a remark, related to what Nerwen suggested (and what Pitch mentioned too, only I didn't realise he might have meant it that way), if you are trying to make some timeframe out of what is said, the riddle is not supposed to mean that the path of the mother ended by the western shores between the time when the mountains shook and after the darkness came, there suddenly was another path appearning or anything like that. It was simply (perhaps in somewhat confusing way, I apologise) meant to say that the time when her path came to end by western shores is defined by two things: it was after the mountains shook, and before the darkness came; they are two descriptions of the same period. Sometime in this period, it came to be that the mother's path ended by the western shores, as in, a finished process (not like that it ended somewhere between these times and later it suddenly ended elsewhere - that even wouldn't make sense, especially if we take the mother literally). Hope it is clear what I mean...

You make me think the mother is Arda.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

You make me think the mother is Arda.

Who knows? But even if it was, the question is who is the son/daughter.

[Galadriel55]

Judging by Legate's second-last post, it does indeed sound like the Numenor. The time period was between the War of Wrath (mountains shook) and the time when Sauron arose and brought darkness - to ME in general, but also to Numenor specifically. After the glory came the loss - Numenor was very prosporous, but after Sauron came it was lost in a huge "natural disaster". Numenor was pretty close to Aman, so that is what's probably meant by here path did end by Western shores - but path???? As for the child, I really don't know. Elendil? when did he or his heirs ever betray? Something they brought from Numenor? Palantiri, White tree, the stone on Erech...none seem to fit. It culd also refer to Dark Numenorians, but they haven't remained. So maybe not Numenor after all.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Judging by Legate's second-last post, it does indeed sound like the Numenor. (...) So maybe not Numenor after all.

No; I didn't mean Númenor was the answer, I meant the period in which the "mother's" path "did end by Western shores" might be that between the War of Wrath and the Downfall of Númenor (i.e. the Second Age, more or less).

*sigh* This is a tricky one, Legate! I can think of many things which nearly fit– but never on all points. And knowing you, I expect the answer you have in mind will fit.

Might I beg you for a hint?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Surely, you may

I just have to think what sort of hint to give. Maybe there's been too much thinking about the mother, perhaps it might help to let her be for a while and try it from the other end. I would suggest looking more at the second half of the riddle, let's say the last part but also the thing about blood and how the Men of Light have earned the Dark One's hate. The words used there are deliberate, they are not merely a "random stuffing". Also, ask yourselves who are the guards "of light - of peace"... and also, you might want to think once again about Pitchwife's earlier thoughts regarding the third part.

[Galadriel55]

Well, you sure stumped us all with that riddle, Legate!
I think that "men of light" does indeed reffer to the Numenorians - doesn't Faramir call them that?
As for "guards of light - of peace" - could it perhaps be refferring to the people of Minas Tirith (guards), once Minas Anor (light)? I don't remember who said it, but they said that "we're just defending our land and our city; we do not want war" (peace)?
If that's true, the person/thing/place in question has to be very old.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, you are at the right track at least with the Men of Light, and with the guards somewhat too. Perhaps it will be even easier if you consider it like this: they are 1. guards. 2. of what? Of light, and of peace (I suggest putting more stress on the peace, it is clearer that way). What does it mean, effectively? "Peace" is rather abstract term. What are they guarding?

But Men of Light, yea, as I said, good track. Put together all the hints you had from before, try to combine it... take the separate answers for each of the parts, and where the lines cross, so to say, you'll find the answer...

[Galadriel55]

At first I was kinda leaning in the direction of Gondor, but the way you put it, it sounds more like the Rangers. They guard the "simple peaceful folk" from dark things. Makes any sense?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Possibly?

I would say just this; in general, you are thinking correctly, so now just focus on trying to come up with the final answer. Once you have the correct answer, you'll be also able to verify it, because you will be able to understand what the different parts of the riddle mean, and it will make sense.

Good riddlance!

[Galadriel55]

"when Men of Light have earned his hate" - If I'm right in thinking that the men of Light are Numenorians or their descendants, then the "war" was probably the one of the Last Alliance. Sauron started hating Numenor long before that, but then Ar Pharazon just took him prisoner, and there wasn't really any war where blood is really that involved. It says that when Sauron came back to ME and found out that the Elendili escaped, he hated them even more.
"Close to the King was she of late, but long before, in tide of fate I have been thrown into the war" - the mother was close to the King after the war? Am I really that stupid or is this just a really confusing part?
Also, if my last two posts are somewhat correct, the people who this person betrayed are the descendants of Numenorians, and it happened at night, and it was most likely unexpected, since s/he was a "friend". And s/he remained when they didn't. ???????????????
!IDEA!: s/he remained in memmory when the others were forgotten?
!IDEA#2!: "came and went" - could it be from Frodo's qoute "no, they never end as tales. The people in them come, and go...", and this person just remained for longer?
Geesh! So many guesses and none fully verified!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Very good thoughts, actually, very good thoughts, most of them... I think only the last two ideas are already getting too much on the speculative level, the start was better

And yes, it is really meant so that the mother was close to the King only later, and long time before that, there was this war thing. Or if you want me to formulate it in a different way: the King definitely was not close to the mother at the earlier time.

The sentence which you end by many questionmarks is entirely correct

And as for earning the hate, good thoughts as well, or at least on the right track... and the blood was really that involved.

[Nerwen]

Is it Sarn Ford, the crossing of the Brandywine/Baranduin?

In twilight born my mother was,

–The Brandywine (the "mother") originates in Lake Evendim.

her path did end by Western shores
after the mountains shook, before
the darkness came in times of yore
and after glory came the loss.

Following my earlier reasoning, this refers to the Second Age: the river did not flow into the sea before this.

Close to the King was she of late,

The Brandywine arises by the royal city of Annúminas.

but long before, in tide of fate
I have been thrown into the war
in blood I've seen the Dark One's fall
when Men of Light have earned his hate.

Refers to the earlier defeat of Sauron by Tar-Minastir's forces– he was "driven away south-east after great slaughter at Sarn Ford", and after further battles completely routed– this caused him to vow revenge on Númenor.

I've been a friend to all the guards
of light - of peace - till I betray'd
them in the vicious nightly raid
when fear was piercing all their hearts.

Sarn Ford is on the borders of the Shire, which the Rangers guarded. However, they proved unable to hold it against the invading Nazgûl on the night of 22 September.

They came and went - I have remained.

*shrugs* Well, it did.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Indeed, absolutely correct answer. Well, now perhaps somebody can objectively tell me how difficult it was

Your turn, Nerwen!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Indeed, absolutely correct answer. Well, now perhaps somebody can objectively tell me how difficult it was

Difficult indeed!

Only now I realise I should have got it ages ago– I had the correct "mother", "Dark One's fall" and "nightly raid" on my list of possibilities for each, but it wasn't until I did some re-reading just now that I made the connection.

[Pitchwife]

*applauds*
Congratulations, Nerwen! I actually considered Sarn Ford myself when Galadriel55 brought up the Rangers, but I'd never have thought of the role it played in Tar-Minastir's war, and therefore discarded it 'cause I couldn't make it fit the second stanza. Great riddling!

To answer your question, Legate, I think it was quite tough indeed, but beautifully woven with its allusions across two Ages of history, and once you know the answer, it's perfectly logical. Loved it!

[Galadriel55]

Wow! Such a simple answer for such a complicated riddle! Great job, Nerwen! And great job, Legate, for such a riddle! I'm looking forward to your riddle, Nerwen!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, thanks, everybody!

I think somehow, whenever I start making a riddle, I start thinking "Hey, this is really too simple, this is rather obvious, am I not making it too transparent and easy...?" Obviously, always the truth is the opposite... but it happens to me every time, because I think "this time I might be trying to make it too easy". Well...

But anyway, looking forward to Nerwen's riddle

[Galadriel55]

Well, I didn't do that bad on this riddle, if I reconsider. If it wasn't for me bringing up the Rangers, we'd be stuck on it for another few days...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Well, I didn't do that bad on this riddle, if I reconsider. If it wasn't for me bringing up the Rangers, we'd be stuck on it for another few days...

As you see I built on both your guesses and Pitchwife's, so you could say it was a joint effort, really. That's what it took– Legate is the prince of riddlers.

*sigh* I've just been reading this thread, and my goodness! you're a hard act to follow, Legate!

Oh, well, perhaps you'll all be glad of something nice and easy this time:

Faithful I, yet I my lord betrayed
To serve the one who wielded shadow;
Shadow I helped defeat.

Patient was I, but rash move I made.
Madness tore me; now at last I
Know what it is to sleep.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Oh, well, perhaps you'll all be glad of something nice and easy this time

Not as easy as you think it is! At least for me. I can think of lots of people who fit into one half of the riddle but not the other, and none of them really fit into both! I'll just have to keep trying, then...