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Old 01-11-2004, 03:26 PM   #1
Lachwen
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Eye Why does Pippin cry?

Ever since seeing RotK the first time, I've wondered why Pippin cries after he sings for Denethor. I've come up with three possible reasons, but I'm not sure which one might be correct. What do you think?<P>Reason 1: He's thinking about Faramir and how Denethor has sent him on a suicide mission.<P>Reason 2: He's homesick and/or wishes Merry was there.<P>Reason 3: He's a Hobbit, watching someone else eat while he goes hungry.
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Old 01-11-2004, 03:32 PM   #2
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Sting

It could be all three.
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Old 01-11-2004, 03:37 PM   #3
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I think it's a mix of the first two. But maybe he's also feeling kinda guilty in a way because if Boromir hadn't died defending him and Merry, then maybe Faramir wouldn't be sent on a suicide mission.
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Old 01-11-2004, 03:44 PM   #4
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Perhaps he is sad because he is separated from all of his best friends and feeling small and inconsequential as part of the Guard of a city which is about to bear the brunt of a terrible assault upon the Free Peoples of Middle-earth.<P>Or maybe he just wishes he had a basket of mushrooms and some pipe weed.
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Old 01-11-2004, 04:52 PM   #5
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When he was a little hobbit boy, his mother sang that song to get him to go to sleep. He misses his mother!
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Old 01-11-2004, 04:53 PM   #6
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It's perhaps all of those and then some. What that "some" is I've no idea. I rememeber reading/hearng once a quote that said "It is a hard thing for a hobbit, to go hungry while others eat." I believe I just severly butchered that quote. But you get the point. <P>Watching that scene, I tried to put myself in it. A little fellow, in a place far from green hills and plentiful food, surronded by giants (or Big People if you prefer)and cold hard stone. No one here seems to understand the closeness of family. Everyone you know is either dead, or in very great danger of dying. And you can't help. You have to stay here, with the Cold Darkness. And you're alone. The only one of you're kind there. Scared, and hungry, and confused and hungry, and all torn up. <P>And hungry.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Or maybe he just wishes he had a basket of mushrooms and some pipe weed.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know, that sounds really good right now.
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Old 01-11-2004, 06:29 PM   #7
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Ah-Ha I remember. It was "It is a hard thing for a hobbit,to look on hungry while others eat." Still can't rememebr where its from though.
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Old 01-11-2004, 06:47 PM   #8
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Tolkien

I had always thought that Pippin cried because he was sad that Denethor cared so little for his son and because Faramir would probably die.<P>Edit: I think he had grown more mature over the journey to be concerned about his own lack of food.<p>[ 8:51 PM January 11, 2004: Message edited by: Imladris ]
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Old 01-11-2004, 07:29 PM   #9
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Sting

Yeah I think he was just feeling down and out and an evil father basically murdering his son didn't help the situation out any. at all.
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Old 01-11-2004, 07:51 PM   #10
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I would cry to if I were him. He is seperated from all his friends without knowing if he will ever see them again and is trapped in a city with a crazy man who is unfit to resist the attack of the enemy armies. The song he sings is rather depressing, the last line being "all shall fade". I think it really brings out all the feelings trapped inside him and adds a new level of despair.
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Old 01-11-2004, 07:58 PM   #11
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IIRC, the scene cut between Pippin singing, Denethor eating, and Faramir charging, so the tears were for Faramir.<P>Is the song he sang the same as was sung in the Old Forest?
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Old 01-11-2004, 08:07 PM   #12
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Sting

I don't think so. It seems...well... too despairing to be sung in the Old Forest, although I doubt that there can be such a thing as too much despair in Tolkien's mythos. <P><BR>Pippin was probably feeling a general sense of hopelessness, and that age-old "What am I doing here? This is too big for me!" feeling. I mean, it was his first trip out of the Shire, and what happened? He saw his mentor and friend die, got captured by Orcs, had a mental duel with the Dark Lord, and to top it all off, was stuck with a psychotic pyromaniac who treated his son like crap! I'd be feeling pretty hopeless too in that situation.
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Old 01-11-2004, 08:09 PM   #13
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Is the song he sang the same as was sung in the Old Forest?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmm...hard to say...my memories not very good as to when songs take place. I know that when I look for it it awlays comes up as Hobbit Walking Song. I believe it may have been a little bit before Old Forest. As I know Frodo sings to encourage them to go in, but that's another song entirely. This one is the last verse of the Hobbit walking song, tweaked a bit. I rememeber those lyrics well enough (it's "Away shall fade," folks, not "all shall fade")<P>Oh dear, I'm rambling aren't I? Sorry.
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Old 01-11-2004, 08:19 PM   #14
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Sting

Precise lyrics (with the exception of puncutation):<P>Home is behind, the world ahead<BR>And there are many paths to tread.<BR>Through Shadow, to the edge of nihgt.<BR>Until the stars are all alight.<BR>Mist and Shadow<BR>Cloud and Shade.<BR>Away shall fade<BR>Away shall...<P>....Fade.<P>Tinker, who has a nasty habit of remembering lyrics when she hears them 10 times in a row.
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Old 01-11-2004, 08:23 PM   #15
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Sting

Well, that answers that question I suppose. I did feel upon looking at the Old Forest song that it was far less solemn and dirge-like than Pippin's song (though this could conceivably have been accounted for by the fact that there is no accompanying music to go by in the books).<p>[ 9:24 PM January 11, 2004: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]
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Old 01-11-2004, 08:26 PM   #16
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Tinker, I think it was "All shall fade" not "Away shall fade" at the end. <P><BR>*says the truly pathetic Finwe who's seen RotK nearly 7 times so far*<P>*sheepish grin*
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Old 01-11-2004, 08:39 PM   #17
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Silmaril

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Ah-Ha I remember. It was "It is a hard thing for a hobbit,to look on hungry while others eat." Still can't rememebr where its from though.<P><BR>I think that may well be the very same song that Pippin sings in Return of the King. I did not notice that before. Does anyone have the precise lyrics to Pippin's movie song?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Pippin is with Beregond on the battlements of Minas Tirith on the dawnless day (<I>The Siege of Gondor</I> in RotK) when he says: "And I'm not used, Master Beregond, to waiting hungry on others while they eat."<P>The film lyrics are: <UL TYPE=SQUARE>Home is behind<BR>The world ahead<BR>And there are many paths to tread<BR>Through shadows to the edge of night<BR>Until the stars are all alight<BR>Mist and shadow<BR>Cloud and shade<BR>All shall fade<BR>All shall fade</UL> This is a slightly modified version of the last part of the hobbit walking-song from <I>'Three is Company'</I> in FotR: <UL TYPE=SQUARE>Home is behind, the world ahead,<BR>And there are many paths to tread<BR>Through shadows to the edge of night, <BR>Until the stars are all alight.<BR>Then world behind and home ahead,<BR>We'll wander back to home and bed.<BR>Mist and twilight, cloud and shade,<BR>Away shall fade! Away shall fade!<BR>Fire and lamp, and meat and bread,<BR>And then to bed! And then to bed!</UL>
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Old 01-11-2004, 08:56 PM   #18
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Tinker, I think it was "All shall fade" not "Away shall fade" at the end. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'd argue the point Master Finwe, But <P>1: You've got a good many more posts than I do<P>2: Everyone else seems to think as you do. So I shall keep with what I heard and not press the issue further. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Pippin is with Beregond on the battlements of Minas Tirith on the dawnless day (The Siege of Gondor in RotK) when he says: "And I'm not used, Master Beregond, to waiting hungry on others while they eat."<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There's that Ala (I won't write out the full name, else I'll really mess it up.) Yet I could swear I've heard or read the quote as I posted it. ::shrugs:: Ah well, I probably just mixed my own thoughts with Pippin's line and can up with it. Thank ye.<P>Tinker, who is even more pathetic than Finwe, having seen it only RotK but once in the movie theatres and 12 times in her mind.
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Old 01-11-2004, 10:13 PM   #19
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Sting

I think a lot of things contribute to Pippin's breaking down at that point, but I think it's at least partly because he realizes the magnitude of his oath to Denthor. He offered his allegiance before he knew anything of Denethor's character or state of mind. He was then bound to serve Denethor even if he disagreed with him or found his actions appalling (i.e. sending Faramir back to Osgiliath). It's part of his maturation process. It may seem very romantic and noble to swear allegiance to someone in "payment" of a kind of life debt, but such an oath has very real, and possibly harsh, consequences. That kind of realization could be very overwhelming, especially given everything else that is going on for Pippin at that point.
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Old 01-12-2004, 04:46 PM   #20
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Sting

Heh, skipping the "then to bed" part really changes the mood of the song, doesn't it?<P>I think that in this part of the story, Pippin is scared to death. Sauron thinks he's the Ringbearer, he's been separated from his best friend, Frodo and Sam might be dead, the world as he knows it (or maybe just period) might be coming to an end, and he's in a bigger city than he had ever imagined existed, stuck in front of a grumpy but very powerful old man whose son gave his life to save Pippin. He's singing a very sad song (which contradicts his statement that they didn't have songs for dark times, but that's neither here nor there), and it's driving home the thought that he's been trying not to think: he might not make it, or if he does, things will never be the same, and the Shire that he's trying so hard to save might "fade" anyway.<P>That's my two cents, anyway.
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Old 01-12-2004, 07:20 PM   #21
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Is the song he sang the same as was sung in the Old Forest? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The song in the Old Forest was:<P><I>O! Wanderers in the shadowed land<BR>despair not! For though dark they stand,<BR>all woods there be must end at last,<BR>and see the open sun go past:<BR>the setting sun, the rising sun, <BR>the day's end, or the day begun.<BR>For east or west all woods must fail...</I><P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Tinker, I think it was "All shall fade" not "Away shall fade" at the end. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Both are correct, depending on whether you are going by the film or the book. "All shall fade" is the line from the film, "Away shall fade" is the line from the book.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> He's singing a very sad song (which contradicts his statement that they didn't have songs for dark times, but that's neither here nor there), <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It can be a sad song, or it can be a 'hope' song. It depends on your interpretation. "Mist and shadow, cloud and shade, all shall fade, all shall fade" could mean that the shadows shall fade, or it could mean that everything will fade into shadows. (Pippin probably heard it the first way, Denethor probably heard it the second way.)<P>I can definately understand Pippin crying, I cried watching that scene, all three times I saw it. Whatever the reason, it is a very sad scene.<p>[ 10:07 PM January 13, 2004: Message edited by: Elennar Starfire ]
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Old 01-12-2004, 08:01 PM   #22
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Although I'm sure that this point has already been confirmed by now, I think it's because he's sorry for Faramir. He's sorry that his father treated him so badly, & I think that, for once, Pippin seems to understand the circumstances uncommonly well & he realizes that there's a good chance that Faramir will die.
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Old 01-12-2004, 08:10 PM   #23
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Sting

Does the poor bloke have any reason <I>not</I> to cry?
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Old 01-13-2004, 08:03 AM   #24
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Sting

In suppose PJ and crew meant the tears to be for Faramir. (One way to show why Pippin is later obsessed to save the guy from flames. He feels for him.) But actually he might be crying foe a world of reasons, all the bad and sad things that have lead him to that point.
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Old 01-15-2004, 08:15 AM   #25
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Silmaril

I always figured Pippin was crying because he realizes the kind of man he's sworn to serve, and fears that Gondor cannot hope to achieve victory under the rule of such a man. Also I'm sure he's quite lonely, with no one he really knows in the city except Gandalf (who's always calling him a 'Fool of a Took'), and separated from his best friend and all. Basically I'm willing to agree with pretty much everything that's been suggested so far here - the poor hobbit really has no reason not to be crying at this point in time.
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Old 09-29-2011, 08:54 PM   #26
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Silmaril

I think he's crying for Faramir and because to death of whats happening to him and all his friends
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:08 AM   #27
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I think he's crying for Faramir and because to death of whats happening to him and all his friends
Good point!
I haven't read the book series, I only watched the movies and they are my favorite movies of all time. I noticed hobbits always cried at different tough situations and thought it was rather cure they weren't suppress their feelings. Even Gendalf said in the end: "I will not say, do not weep, for not all tears are an evil."
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