Would Gandalf - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

rudeboy · 02-06-2004, 06:55 AM

challenge Sauron one on one if Sauron had conquered ME, and they were all slaves? Would he try and sneak to Barudur and throw him down? I know he wasn't allowed at first, but desperate times call for desperate measures?

Kransha · 02-06-2004, 07:11 AM

Well, if the War of the Ring ended in Sauron's victory and he gained the ring, Gandalf probably would challenge Sauron, but he would lose, probably very badly. What exactly do you mean, "he wasn't allowed at first"?

Thorongil · 02-06-2004, 09:05 AM

When the Istari were sent to ME it was to raise the spirit of the people, or something like that. They were to travel around and get people to fight Sauron. But they were not allowed to challenge Sauron directly. I'm not sure why.

Potatothan · 02-06-2004, 09:23 AM

Because the valar did not see Sauron as their problem. They never cared much for those matters, which is proven because they would not accept the one ring in their midst. Gandalf said at the counsil that they would not accept it since it was the problem of middle-earth. That's why he couldn't challenge Sauron, he was there to aid men with counsil, not with strength.

~Potatothan

rudeboy · 02-06-2004, 12:12 PM

But say, Sauron didn't capture the ring and Frodo & Sam were killed by Shelob, and Gollum hid with it, and if the Captains of the West accepted the terms by Mouth of Sauron, and they were to be Slaves, do you think Gandalf could break away and challenge Sauron?

**The Saucepan Man** · 02-06-2004, 08:47 PM

In answer to the last question, unless the Ring was destroyed, it would have found its way back to its Master. It slipped Gollum's finger once, so it could do so again - with more terrible consequences if it did so in Mordor.

I agree that, if Sauron had regained the Ring, Gandalf would probably have been unable to defeat him, even using his full powers.

Which raises the question: would the Valar then have had no option but to intervene?

Kransha · 02-06-2004, 09:24 PM

That's the million-mithril question I suppose.

As they did in the days of Melkor, would the Valar intervene? I think not. Sauron, unlike Melkor, is maiar, considerably less powerful. Even though good versus evil isn't supposed to be fair, I don't think the Valar would stoop to flick aside a fly like Sauron to end a war that cost so many lives.

Firstly, as I said, Melkor was Valar, Sauron is not. The Valar could wipe Sauron from existence, but not Melkor. They wouldn't interfear in the affairs of men to clean up their mess of things. Let the greasy-haired king handle it.

Secondly, if Manwe jumped out of the sky, smote Sauron, and jumped back, I have to believe that the entire planey would be infuriated. If the Valar could've done that at any time, why did they wait until everyone heroic was dead?

lathspell · 02-07-2004, 03:51 AM

The Valar did not interfere with Melkor themselves. They sent their Maiar to take care of it, with Eonwë as their leader. They did not do this, because it just popped in their minds that... oh, yeah, Melkor still walks around somewhere, let's do something about it. No, They were persuaded by Eärendil's speech which he made before Manwë's throne. Tolkien mentions in the Silmarillion that only Eärendil and only at that time he could make such a speech that mastered the Ainur's minds. Personally I believe the Silmaril helped a lot. So the Ainur would not come, because there would be none to tell them the need.

Maybe Gandalf would challenge Sauron, but he would have lost. The Ring would have been found be Sauron's servants one day if Gollum took it for himself. No matter how you see it... if the Ring wasn't destroyed by Frodo, M-e would be Dark again.

greetings,
lathspell

Thorongil · 02-07-2004, 06:44 AM

Then, would the Valar deal with Sauron if anyone was able to repeat Earendils voyage? I know this isn't very likly, but would they?

lathspell · 02-07-2004, 08:26 AM

Could any man living at the end of the TA make a speech as powerful as Eärendil's and bring a Silmaril with him? That is what made the Valar send their Maiar. No, Tolkien spefically stated that in his books.
Ofcourse, for anyone except Elves, Ringbearers and Istari it is practically impossible to even go to Aman. The Valar, and I guess Ulmo and Manwë would take care of it, would not let them reach the shores or even come within sight.

If anyone could do all these things again, go to Valinor, bring a Silmaril and speak to Manwë, there might have been a chance... but it could not be done!

greetings,
lathspell

Kransha · 02-07-2004, 08:58 AM

Well, Saruman was probably considering challenging Sauron, not necessarily one-on-one. Of course, his intention was to break the rules. He would've lost, though, just like Gandalf. If someone motivated the heralds of the Valar to come on down and do some smiting, the problem's solved, but I don't think anyone was capable of such a thing in that age.

Phervasaion · 02-07-2004, 04:08 PM

hmm... This made me think of another question. What if Gandalf had joined Sauron along with Saruman? Would anyone have even attempted to destroy the Ring? And, would Arangorn still reclaim the throne of Gondor?

Elassar 516 · 02-07-2004, 10:48 PM

Gandalf would Never join Sauron, he would rather have died. If he had joined Sauron attempting to destroy the ring would have been futile because even though Sauron wouldn't suspect it, Gandalf would. And I doubt Aragorn would have become king because he wouldn't take his rightful place until the enemy had been defeated. Also if Gandalf had joined Sauron what would be be? I can just see him saying "Behold I am not Gandalf the Grey/White, I am Gandalf the slightly lighter shade of black!" If

Amrod the Hunter · 11-28-2004, 06:34 AM

Gandalf would challenge Sauron only with permission of Valars.Just like that,if everything was lost maybe Valars would interfere,but not to crush Suoron,but to make some great force wich would gather the remaining humans,hobbits,dwarves and elves and help them to create a new peaceful home for themselves.They would battle Sauron directly only if he would attack them.

02-06-2004, 06:55 AM	#1
rudeboy Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Flitwick, Beds Posts: 47	Would Gandalf challenge Sauron one on one if Sauron had conquered ME, and they were all slaves? Would he try and sneak to Barudur and throw him down? I know he wasn't allowed at first, but desperate times call for desperate measures?

02-06-2004, 07:11 AM	#2
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	Well, if the War of the Ring ended in Sauron's victory and he gained the ring, Gandalf probably would challenge Sauron, but he would lose, probably very badly. What exactly do you mean, "he wasn't allowed at first"? __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies

02-06-2004, 09:05 AM	#3
Thorongil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The Elvenpath Posts: 780	When the Istari were sent to ME it was to raise the spirit of the people, or something like that. They were to travel around and get people to fight Sauron. But they were not allowed to challenge Sauron directly. I'm not sure why. __________________ To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. ~Sun Tzu

02-06-2004, 09:23 AM	#4
Potatothan Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Traveling from one warm bed to another Posts: 52	Because the valar did not see Sauron as their problem. They never cared much for those matters, which is proven because they would not accept the one ring in their midst. Gandalf said at the counsil that they would not accept it since it was the problem of middle-earth. That's why he couldn't challenge Sauron, he was there to aid men with counsil, not with strength. ~Potatothan __________________ Are we humans or are we called humans?

02-06-2004, 08:47 PM	#6
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	In answer to the last question, unless the Ring was destroyed, it would have found its way back to its Master. It slipped Gollum's finger once, so it could do so again - with more terrible consequences if it did so in Mordor. I agree that, if Sauron had regained the Ring, Gandalf would probably have been unable to defeat him, even using his full powers. Which raises the question: would the Valar then have had no option but to intervene? __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

02-06-2004, 12:12 PM	#5
rudeboy Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Flitwick, Beds Posts: 47	But say, Sauron didn't capture the ring and Frodo & Sam were killed by Shelob, and Gollum hid with it, and if the Captains of the West accepted the terms by Mouth of Sauron, and they were to be Slaves, do you think Gandalf could break away and challenge Sauron?

02-06-2004, 09:24 PM	#7
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	That's the million-mithril question I suppose. As they did in the days of Melkor, would the Valar intervene? I think not. Sauron, unlike Melkor, is maiar, considerably less powerful. Even though good versus evil isn't supposed to be fair, I don't think the Valar would stoop to flick aside a fly like Sauron to end a war that cost so many lives. Firstly, as I said, Melkor was Valar, Sauron is not. The Valar could wipe Sauron from existence, but not Melkor. They wouldn't interfear in the affairs of men to clean up their mess of things. Let the greasy-haired king handle it. Secondly, if Manwe jumped out of the sky, smote Sauron, and jumped back, I have to believe that the entire planey would be infuriated. If the Valar could've done that at any time, why did they wait until everyone heroic was dead? __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies

02-07-2004, 03:51 AM	#8
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	The Valar did not interfere with Melkor themselves. They sent their Maiar to take care of it, with Eonwë as their leader. They did not do this, because it just popped in their minds that... oh, yeah, Melkor still walks around somewhere, let's do something about it. No, They were persuaded by Eärendil's speech which he made before Manwë's throne. Tolkien mentions in the Silmarillion that only Eärendil and only at that time he could make such a speech that mastered the Ainur's minds. Personally I believe the Silmaril helped a lot. So the Ainur would not come, because there would be none to tell them the need. Maybe Gandalf would challenge Sauron, but he would have lost. The Ring would have been found be Sauron's servants one day if Gollum took it for himself. No matter how you see it... if the Ring wasn't destroyed by Frodo, M-e would be Dark again. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

02-07-2004, 06:44 AM	#9
Thorongil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The Elvenpath Posts: 780	Then, would the Valar deal with Sauron if anyone was able to repeat Earendils voyage? I know this isn't very likly, but would they? __________________ To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. ~Sun Tzu

02-07-2004, 08:26 AM	#10
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	Could any man living at the end of the TA make a speech as powerful as Eärendil's and bring a Silmaril with him? That is what made the Valar send their Maiar. No, Tolkien spefically stated that in his books. Ofcourse, for anyone except Elves, Ringbearers and Istari it is practically impossible to even go to Aman. The Valar, and I guess Ulmo and Manwë would take care of it, would not let them reach the shores or even come within sight. If anyone could do all these things again, go to Valinor, bring a Silmaril and speak to Manwë, there might have been a chance... but it could not be done! greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

02-07-2004, 08:58 AM	#11
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	Well, Saruman was probably considering challenging Sauron, not necessarily one-on-one. Of course, his intention was to break the rules. He would've lost, though, just like Gandalf. If someone motivated the heralds of the Valar to come on down and do some smiting, the problem's solved, but I don't think anyone was capable of such a thing in that age. __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies

02-07-2004, 04:08 PM	#12
Phervasaion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: The wilderness of Middle-Earth Posts: 306	hmm... This made me think of another question. What if Gandalf had joined Sauron along with Saruman? Would anyone have even attempted to destroy the Ring? And, would Arangorn still reclaim the throne of Gondor? __________________ Phervasaion

02-07-2004, 10:48 PM	#13
Elassar 516 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Sailing into the West...I wish Posts: 58	Gandalf would Never join Sauron, he would rather have died. If he had joined Sauron attempting to destroy the ring would have been futile because even though Sauron wouldn't suspect it, Gandalf would. And I doubt Aragorn would have become king because he wouldn't take his rightful place until the enemy had been defeated. Also if Gandalf had joined Sauron what would be be? I can just see him saying "Behold I am not Gandalf the Grey/White, I am Gandalf the slightly lighter shade of black!" If

11-28-2004, 06:34 AM	#14
Amrod the Hunter Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dol Amroth Posts: 54	Gandalf would challenge Sauron only with permission of Valars.Just like that,if everything was lost maybe Valars would interfere,but not to crush Suoron,but to make some great force wich would gather the remaining humans,hobbits,dwarves and elves and help them to create a new peaceful home for themselves.They would battle Sauron directly only if he would attack them.