The Significance of the Pumpkin

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The huge, bright orange-colored pumpkin at the Green Dragon really stood out to me while re-viewing the movie today. Why was it there? I thought. Then it dawned on me - the pumpkin was there to show how little the four hobbits were honored in the Shire after their return home. They sat at a table alone, and all the others flocked around the other table to see and touch the pumpkin.<P>Isn't that just typical Shire for you?! Four hobbits have been away to save the world, and their fellow citizens are more interested in a large vegetable!<P>Just a detail, perhaps, but one that Peter Jackson did very well - it brings the point across visually, much better and faster than a thousand words of script could have done. Bravo!

[Lord of Angmar]

That is a very clever observation, Esty! It does seem to fit well with the book in the idea that they are not revered by the Shire-folk, and that Frodo has "grown" beyond the Shire. It kind of goes along the same lines as when Rose says to Sam in the book, "If you've been looking after Mr. Frodo all this while, what d'you want to leave him for, as soon as things look dangerous?" They are a simple people, and don't understand or entirely care for the hobbit quartet's fair dress, "ironmongery" and stories of foreign lands. The gaffer sums it up best when he says, "Elves and dragons! ...Cabbages and potatoes [and pumpkins ] are better suited to the likes of us."

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Very well noticed. I had wondered about that myself. It's a very touching scene as we see the four Hobbits all alone and, while they are smiling at each other, it is still a very melancholy atmosphere.<P><BR>Edit to add; I just noticed that I used the word melancholy in a thread about 'pumpkins'. One hundred rock points to me! <BR> <p>[ 1:12 PM January 04, 2004: Message edited by: Eomer of the Rohirrim ]

[Silmiel of Imladris]

I think I am probably getting way too much into symbolism here but did anyone notice that the hobbit with the pumpkin was Andy Serkis (Gollum), or at least I heard he was. If that is true you notice how he was petting the pumpkin like Gollum stroked the ring. I take that as a symbol of Frodo moving on from the ring and taking up a better life. Too deep? I can't help it for I have taken so many literary analizsis classes that I am starting to 'read' into movies like books.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The Hobbit with the pumpkin was not Andy Serkis.

[Silmiel of Imladris]

Well then I feel dumb. Someone on this site I believe told me he was. :sigh: I can be so gullable.

[Lord of Angmar]

Don't feel dumb, Silmiel. I too was tricked. It was TheBladeThatWasBroken in the <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002548" TARGET=_blank>Peter Jackson in RotK</A> thread who said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>did you guys notice that the dude in the Green Dragon who had the big pumpkin was Andy Serkis?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Most of the people in that thread believed him. Just goes to show how a rumor or a lie can easily become accepted (hear that George Bush?).<P>At any rate, your pumpkin-stroking thesis may have been just a bit over the top. I should know, since I am the master of reading too far into things and overanalyzing to the point of ludicrousness.<P>Cheers,<BR>Angmar

[HCIsland]

I thought the scene at the Green Dragon was brilliant. A lot of emotion and information being conveyed, without a stitch of dialogue.<P>H.C.

[Lathriel]

I always thought that the pumpkin kinda showed how down to earth the hobbits are and how they never realized how close their beloved shire was to destruction.<BR>That scene in gerneral kinda showed that the hobbits had no idea what went on in the outside world and that they didn't want to know.

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

Good point, Estelyn. The pumpkin thing is definately a good device, although we missed out on some priceless lines that never would have fit into the movie (like Rosie's comment about having wasted a year). <P>Eomer's right, the scene was happy and yet at the same time very melancholy. When things are being conveyed without dialogue, I always try to narrate the feelings of the characters, and both times I've seen ROTK, it's been something along the lines of "We've done it, and we're home, but this isn't the same. We don't fit in anymore." And then Sam finally builds up enough resolve to <B>do</B> something about it. <P>I'll never look at a pumpkin the same way again!

[Isilmëiel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Andy Serkis plays the hobbit carrying the pumpkin in the inn where Sam goes after Rosie.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is from <BR><A HREF="http://imdb.com/title/tt0167260/trivia" TARGET=_blank>The Internet Movie Database</A>. It may very well be true. The hobbit did look like Andy, though I didn't really notice him until the last time I saw RotK.<P>There's a lot of other nifty things on there, like goofs and such. Check it out. Cheers!

[aleesa]

I agree with Luthien_Tinuviel. The scene at the Green Dragon was happy and melancholy at the same. That scene made me wanted to laugh and cry.<BR>In the movie, the Shire was saved and yet its inhabitants did not know the danger that could have befallen them if Frodo and Sam failed. All around the four hobbits people were laughing and the hobbits were glad. But at the same time, we feel sad for hobbits because no one knew the part they had played in saving ME. They had changed and Frodo especially was unable to fit in again. He didn't quite recover from the injury he had received at Weathertop and he was alone whereas the others had families of their own. Even in the book, Frodo was alone and wasn't able to fit in the community.

[Jjudvven]

I thought that scene was very well done, with no dialogue and all. I didn't even notice the pumpkin the first or second time through. I'll have to watch out for that next time I see it, which will hopefully be soon.

[balrogman]

ummm actually i heard on TORN(i think) that it was the dude who played deagol, its definitly not andy serkis

[Diamond18]

In addition to Esty's observation, the great pumpkin ( )could also be a way of showing the abundant period the Shire was entering. In the book its because of Sam's Lothlorien seeds, but here it could be viewed as a general consequence of the rejuvenation of Middle-earth. Of course, I may only be remembering the pumpkin as bigger than it was (and I'd have to take a look at the FotR EE again to see how big the vegetables looked before the Quest) but that seems like a good way to give a nod to the way the Shire bloomed after the War of the Ring.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Slightly off the main question, but I think it is related....<P>OK, at the risk of taking a totally different stance than anyone else, this was actually one of the points in the movie that gave me fits once I began thinking more about it later. (As a whole, I loved RotK.)<P>This is where we get into a book versus movie thing. It is quite true that Frodo was never awarded the respect that he deserved from the Shire. But, according to Tolkien, the same was not true of Merry and Pippin or even Sam. Merry and Pippin were hailed as the heroes of the Scouring. Sam used to grumble about too much honor being awarded to the two of them and not enough to Frodo who had taken a very "passive" role in the Scouring, counselling caution and making sure no one did anything too drastic. But, since there was no Scouring in the film, PJ could not show how Merry and Pippin were regarded as the new leaders of the Shire. Instead we get the morose scene in the Inn.<P>Another thing that made me uncomfortable was that, according to PJ, the Shire had been totally isolated from the troubles and was thus wholly unchanged. Yet this was not the Shire that JRRT depicted. As Gandalf said to the hobbits, they had grown up and could go home and lead their own people to defend themselves. The folk in Tookborough were already resisting the incursions from outside even before the four hobbits returned within the borders of the Shire.<P>So I do have mixed feeling about the scene at the Inn. Hobbits are certainly insular, and the picture PJ presents at the Inn is superficially enticing and melancholy. Yet this isn't the Shire that JRRT depicts. Things have changed, and that simply doesn't come over at all at the end of PJ's movie.<P>I mean within a short space Sam would be mayor, Pippin the new Thain, and Merry the new master of Brandy Hall. The Shirelings and Bucklanders revered them not for the Ring quest, but what they'd done after returning home in defeating Sharkey. If the place was as unappreciative and uncaring as PJ insinuates, the Shire would never have accepted the hobbits in these important positions.<p>[ 2:40 AM January 05, 2004: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Happy endings bring in <B>dollars.</B>

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yet this isn't the Shire that JRRT depicts. Things have changed, and that simply doesn't come over at all at the end of PJ's movie.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>In the end though, this wasn't what Jackson was trying to portray. He was trying to show The Shire is the same but the four hobbits are different. I know this doesn't gell with what is in the book, but I for one don't have a problem with that.<P>I can't remember who said it, but someone described their brother's reaction to how he felt after returning from war and he greatly identified with the scene at the Green Dragon. I think that's the greatest compliment Jackson could have received because that is what he was going for.<P>H.C.

[mark12_30]

Sharon, I see your point, but I also agree with HC; and yet further, to me the pumkin held a third meaning. <P>What it brought to my mind was the phrase, often used by American soldiers when speaking to anti-war protestors, was, "I may not agree with what you are saying, but I will give my life to protect your right to say it."<P>To me, the pumpkin brought to mind both the solidarity of returning veterans, and the thought, "Although prize pumpkins may no longer astonish us, we went there and back again to protect that innocence-- that very delight over that simple pumpkin. And we did it."<P>Like you, Sharon, I would rather have had the Scouring of the Shire; but scouring withheld, I found the pumpkin poignant in and of itself.<P>Kirk and Picard... both worth keeping.

[Cinderella]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What it brought to my mind was the phrase, often used by American soldiers when speaking to anti-war protestors, was, "I may not agree with what you are saying, but I will give my life to protect your right to say it."<P>To me, the pumpkin brought to mind both the solidarity of returning veterans, and the thought, "Although prize pumpkins may no longer astonish us, we went there and back again to protect that innocence-- that very delight over that simple pumpkin. And we did it."<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I completely agree, and what an eloquent way of putting it! This also relates to Frodo's inability to still enjoy the Shire but his comfort in knowing that he saved what he went out to save. <BR>All in all, the pumpkin scene has many meanings, some intended, some probably not, either way it's quite touching, and though the Scouring is missed, I found this scene a v. good way of depicting the Shire at the end of the War of the Ring in the film.<p>[ 2:55 PM January 05, 2004: Message edited by: Cinderella ]

[Eothain Elfwine]

Mark 12_30, I completely agree with you, as well. Despite the fact that the Scouring was not in the movie (about which I was very disappointed), that part of the movie said something quite strong. It is for the simple, innocent, peaceful places and times that the hard ones take place. One goes to war so that the Shire or wherever one is from will remain the Shire and not be overrun. That the Hobbits (in the movie) knew nothing and cared nothing about what Frodo and Co. did was a tribute to what Frodo and Co. did. Frodo didn't set out to destroy the Ring to rid the world of Sauron; he did it to be able to have a place like the Shire to return to, even if he was never to return. (And I, too, thought that Hobbit with the pumpkin was Andy Serkis.)

[Knight of Gondor]

I always thought the pumpkin was the simple portrayal of the large harvest that was mentioned in the Return of the King.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Just goes to show how a rumor or a lie can easily become accepted (hear that George Bush?).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dude, this ain't a political forum, but if it was, I'd go on and on about the banned weapons we have found. PM me, if you would please. <P>Mark 12_30, I agree about the soldier's point of view concept too. Good insight!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

You are right. This is not a political forum, so there was no need to try and get the last word in regarding the real life "war".<P>I for one do not see a likeness between the two.