Um Plot Loophole - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Arathiriel · 12-21-2003, 12:23 AM

Okay, the movie has been on my mind since I saw it and I think I have come up with a slight plothole. Okay you know at the beginning of the movie how Gandalf says to Aragorn "How do we know Frodo is alive?" Yet later in Minas Tirith after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, when they're all talking Gandalf said something about "Frodo has moved beyond my sight..."So my question is: If Gandalf could "see" Frodo right up he and Sam entered Mordor, then why did he ask Aragorn "How do we know Frodo is alive?"

12-21-2003, 12:38 AM

I thought that the RotK movie was a big dissapointment at first because i thought that PJ would end it in the same way as the books. He didnt. They were similar, but he left out key parts. However, I think that he will do the books justice when he releases the extended version. It has been told that it will include the scouring of the Shire, Saruman's death, and the House of Healing. If I had not read the books beforehand I would have thought the movie a bigger success than it was. So, if you havent read the books, watch the movies first. Then read the books.

12-21-2003, 12:38 AM

Hmmm... maybe Gandalf's sight is limited, and blocked out when Frodo is in mortal peril so Gandalf doesn't stray from his purposed path...

Oroaranion · 12-21-2003, 07:04 AM

Maybe Sauron has some kind of dark magic protecting Mordor, which blocks out the vision of the Wise. This would prevent Gandalf from seeing Frodo as he entered the dark lands, as you have pointed out.

Lord of Angmar · 12-21-2003, 08:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It has been told that it will include the scouring of the Shire<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, the Scouring of the Shire was never filmed.

Olorin_TLA · 12-21-2003, 10:41 AM

Actually, when Gandalf comes back in Fangorn he says in the Book that Frodo has moved beyond his sight. He doesn't even know Sam is travelling with Frodo until Aragorn (or one of the others) tells him in Fangorn.I doubt it's the enemy blocking him, as Frodo was only in the hills of the EMyn Muil then, quite a distance from Mordor...more likely it's simply that Frodo os physically too far away from them for them to be able to help or tell what is going on anymore.

Cinderella · 12-21-2003, 11:25 AM

I noticed this too and have been wondering about it. The conclusion that I came to was that Gandalf was just musing to Aragorn, even though he felt Frodo's presence his sense for him was weakened due to the lands in which he was traveling, he was just thinking out loud to Aragorn and when asked what he thinks, Gandalf immediatly says that, yes, he does believe Frodo is still living. Then later when Frodo has passed completely into Mordor Gandalf cannot sense him, maybe due to how dark and evil the place is. That's my theory anyhow...

Kalimac · 12-21-2003, 01:25 PM

The two statements aren't necessarily inconsistent. When Gandalf says that "Frodo has moved beyond my sight" it doesn't have to mean that it only happened *just then* and that up till now he did have Frodo in his sight. At the beginning, when he says that they don't know if Frodo is alive, it's implied that he's out of Gandalf's sight. Later on, the second line just reiterates that fact for emphasis, it's just phrased a somewhat different way.

doug*platypus · 12-21-2003, 04:21 PM

Yes, movieGandalf was still able to sense that Frodo was alive and well. But he forgot to check his heart before Aragorn told him . It's like when you lose your car keys and someone reminds you to check your pocketses. Of course the fact that Gandalf didn't need to worry anymore completely undermined the later scene when Faramir confirms he has seen the hobbits. Surely PJ could have left Gandalf in doubt just a little while longer. But then, I suppose the 28 takes they did of the shot with Aragorn speaking to Gandalf would have been wasted.PJ stated that he wanted Gandalf to be a bit unsure in this film, a bit worried and not completely perfect. Why he chose to shoot himself in the foot and give Gandalf the ability to sense Frodo in South Ithilien, I shall never know.

12-21-2003, 12:23 AM	#1
Arathiriel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Blessed Realm Posts: 284	Um Plot Loophole Okay, the movie has been on my mind since I saw it and I think I have<BR>come up with a slight plothole. Okay you know at the beginning of the<BR>movie how Gandalf says to Aragorn "How do we know Frodo is alive?"<BR>Yet later in Minas Tirith after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields,<BR>when they're all talking Gandalf said something about "Frodo has<BR>moved beyond my sight..."<P>So my question is: If Gandalf could "see" Frodo right up he and Sam<BR>entered Mordor, then why did he ask Aragorn "How do we know Frodo is<BR>alive?" __________________ 'I love him. He's like that, and sometimes it shines through, somehow. But I love him, whether or no.' - Samwise Gamgee

12-21-2003, 12:38 AM	#2
randomhobbit42 Guest Posts: n/a	I thought that the RotK movie was a big dissapointment at first because i thought that PJ would end it in the same way as the books. He didnt. They were similar, but he left out key parts. However, I think that he will do the books justice when he releases the extended version. It has been told that it will include the scouring of the Shire, Saruman's death, and the House of Healing. <BR>If I had not read the books beforehand I would have thought the movie a bigger success than it was. So, if you havent read the books, watch the movies first. Then read the books.

12-21-2003, 07:04 AM	#4
Oroaranion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Dol Amroth Posts: 94	Maybe Sauron has some kind of dark magic protecting Mordor, which blocks out the vision of the Wise. This would prevent Gandalf from seeing Frodo as he entered the dark lands, as you have pointed out. __________________ I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

12-21-2003, 08:59 AM	#5
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It has been told that it will include the scouring of the Shire<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, the Scouring of the Shire was never filmed. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

12-21-2003, 10:41 AM	#6
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Actually, when Gandalf comes back in Fangorn he says in the Book that Frodo has moved beyond his sight. He doesn't even know Sam is travelling with Frodo until Aragorn (or one of the others) tells him in Fangorn.<P>I doubt it's the enemy blocking him, as Frodo was only in the hills of the EMyn Muil then, quite a distance from Mordor...more likely it's simply that Frodo os physically too far away from them for them to be able to help or tell what is going on anymore. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

12-21-2003, 12:38 AM	#3
Tricia Guest Posts: n/a	Hmmm... maybe Gandalf's sight is limited, and blocked out when Frodo is in mortal peril so Gandalf doesn't stray from his purposed path...

12-21-2003, 11:25 AM	#7
Cinderella Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Arda Unmarred, MA Posts: 173	I noticed this too and have been wondering about it. <BR>The conclusion that I came to was that Gandalf was just musing to Aragorn, even though he felt Frodo's presence his sense for him was weakened due to the lands in which he was traveling, he was just thinking out loud to Aragorn and when asked what he thinks, Gandalf immediatly says that, yes, he does believe Frodo is still living. Then later when Frodo has passed completely into Mordor Gandalf cannot sense him, maybe due to how dark and evil the place is.<BR>That's my theory anyhow... __________________ These violent delights have violent ends... "Live fast, die young, and have a beautiful looking corpse." -J. Dean

12-21-2003, 01:25 PM	#8
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	The two statements aren't necessarily inconsistent. When Gandalf says that "Frodo has moved beyond my sight" it doesn't have to mean that it only happened just then and that up till now he did have Frodo in his sight. At the beginning, when he says that they don't know if Frodo is alive, it's implied that he's out of Gandalf's sight. Later on, the second line just reiterates that fact for emphasis, it's just phrased a somewhat different way. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

12-21-2003, 04:21 PM	#9
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Yes, movieGandalf was still able to sense that Frodo was alive and well. But he forgot to check his heart before Aragorn told him . It's like when you lose your car keys and someone reminds you to check your pocketses. <P>Of course the fact that Gandalf didn't need to worry anymore completely undermined the later scene when Faramir confirms he has seen the hobbits. Surely PJ could have left Gandalf in doubt just a little while longer. But then, I suppose the 28 takes they did of the shot with Aragorn speaking to Gandalf would have been wasted.<P>PJ stated that he wanted Gandalf to be a bit unsure in this film, a bit worried and not completely perfect. Why he chose to shoot himself in the foot and give Gandalf the ability to sense Frodo in South Ithilien, I shall never know. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.