The dead faces

[TealDude3]

What exactly are the faces in the water in the Dead Marshes?

[eleanor_niphredil]

"Many faces proud and fair, and weeds in their silver hair.But all foul, all rotting, all dead. A fell light is in them." Frodo hid his eyes in his hands. " I know not who they are; but I thought I saw there men and elves, and orcs beside them"
"Yes, yes" said Gollum "All dead, all rotten. Elves and Men and Orcs. the Dead Marshes. there was a great battle long ago, yes, so they told him when smeagol was young, when I was young before the precious came. A great battle. tall men with long swords, and terrible Elves, and Orcses shrieking. they fought on the plain for days and monthes before the black gate. But the Marshes have grown since then, swallowed the graves; always creeping, creeping"

So now you know.

[TealDude3]

Yes, but what causes them to be there?

[eleanor_niphredil]

according to Sam, some devilry [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] hatched in the dark land. My guess is that it's just one of those increadibly creepy things that just happens.

Perhaps some kind of preserving acid in the water? [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Jurion]

I believe I read somewhere that the dead faces are the faces of those who fought, and died, in a battle during the Last Alliance, at the end of the Second Age. It was there that they forced their way into Mordor and that campaign eventually ended with the taking of the Ring by Isildur at the battle on the slopes of Mount Doom.

[Gorwingel]

I think it is just one of those things in the stories of Middle Earth that you just have to go with [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] , it also makes for a dramatic part of the story.

[eleanor_niphredil]

Where would we be without lives little mysteries?

[Lalaith]

This is quite an interesting link. http://www.lordoftherings.4mg.com/battlesomme.htm
(precis: Tolkien's daughter believes that the Dead Marshes chapter draws on Tolkien's own experience at the Battle of the Somme.)

[Inderjit Sanghera]

There were also warrior from various battles between Gondor and the Wainriders in the Third Age to keep the toll count rising, so to speak.

[hobbit punk]

The people who lie for eternity in the dead marshes are the men, elves and orcs who fell in some great battle long ago as was previously mentioned. And it has been scientifically proven that certain gases and chemicals found in marshes are excellent mummifiers!
Archeologists have found some bodies that are thousands of years old preserved in marshes which historians believe were people who were sacrificed or murdered for some reason or sometimes just clumsy [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
In LOTR it is used more for effect I think. Just to set the mood and tone of the story. The dead marshes seem to provoke a feeling of desperation but also one of determination for they are a reminder of why it is so very important for the ring to be destroyed.

[ January 27, 2003: Message edited by: hobbit punk ]

[Ultimatejoe]

The images in the water are not just the physical remains of the armies of the battle of Dagorlad.

"You cannot reach them, you cannot touch them. We tried once, yes, precious. I tried once; but you cannot reach them. Only shapes to see, perhaps, not touch."

[Pukel-Man]

I always thought they were apparitions haunting the place of their death. Perhaps they were in fact tortured spirts held in thralldom by the dark lord, forever fighting a battle that ended ages ago.
That was way too metaphysical for me-I need a pint.

Well, besides being perserved for whatever reason, what about the "tricksy candles".

[Ultimatejoe]

That would appear to be a plain allusion to a will-o-wisp. This definition came from Everything2.com

A will-o'-the-wisp is a faerie that is more often seen as just a pale floating light, something that attracts a traveler's attention and then leads the traveler off the path and into a thick wood or otherwise unfamiliar place, where it is easy to get lost irrevocably. Often they will continue to tease the traveler until they get their intended result. Will-o'the-wisps are also known as merry moon dancers or ignis fatuus.

[The Saucepan Man]

The description of the Dead Marshes seems to me to be a brilliant combination of the real and the unreal. It is perfectly feasible that the bodies of those who fell in battle were preserved in the boggy conditions and that the "tricksy lights" were the result of the ignition of swamp gases (which is the origin of the will o' wisp myth).

At the same time, they are described in terms that suggest that there is more to them than this. As has been pointed out, Gollum says that the faces cannot be touched, and he also warns Frodo and Sam not to follow the candles of the corpses (just as will o' wisps were not to be followed since they were said to lure people to their death).

[The Silver-shod Muse]

I was under the impression (I say it so because I have no solid proof of this) that those faces were the visual manifestations of spirits like the barrow-wights; evil creatures that had inhabited and preserved the bodies of those fallen at Dagorlad.

[Deathwail]

In the Unfinished Tales in the story of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin Ulmo said to Tuor the waters and spings of Middle Earth where becoming poisoned so maybe the Dead Marsh is some of Meklor's handy work that still remains. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Ultimatejoe]

Melkor left a bit of his "influence" in all the material of Arda, but it is unlikely that he could have thoroughly corrupted any body of water, let alone so long after his ejection.

[Arwen_Evenstar]

I thought it was from the battle that first overthrew sauron, the last alliance, when Isildur first took the ring...am I wrong? [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

They were from the Battle of Dagorlad, in which huge numbers of Silvan and Sindarin Elves were slain, due to the stupidity of Oropher and there were also one or two battles between Godnor and the Easterlings there as well.