The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-20-2003, 04:51 PM   #1
Lady Snickerdoodle
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Lady Snickerdoodle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: in the cookie jar
Posts: 256
Lady Snickerdoodle has just left Hobbiton.
Sting the mystery of mithril

Mithril is characterized by many things, like the fact that it can be beaten and formed easily, but can stop a spear thrust from a troll from skewering Frodo. Also, it reflects moon and starlight (i think, or am I making that up?) and its really expensive. Considering that it was real, what metal is it? the closest I can think of is titanium.
__________________
"Let me handle this, I'm British."
~hitchhikers guide
Lady Snickerdoodle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2003, 05:28 PM   #2
Manelwen
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alqualondë
Posts: 78
Manelwen has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I think that it is something like titanium. Although, titanium isn't as maleable as what I believe Mithril to be, maybe it is a bit like aluminum. It is light and flexible, but has the stength of titanium. Hum...now its got me thinking :P I don't like to think.
__________________
Victory favors neither the righteous nor the wicked. It favors the prepared.
Manelwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2003, 05:35 PM   #3
Bill the Pony
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 19
Bill the Pony has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

If I may, I'd like to point out that the spear-thrust was from "a huge orc-cheiftan, almost man-high"* rather than a troll.

Also, raw mithril itself wasn't armour by itself - it was the Dwarves who figured out how to make it into the famous armour metal - so armour-Mithril would seem to be an alloy of some sort. The elves made it into ithildin, which was on the door of Moria (that's the stuff that mirrors starlight and moonlight).

* p 317 of the Houghton-Mifflin ed. with movie pics on the covers.
Bill the Pony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2003, 11:54 AM   #4
Lost One
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 67
Lost One has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I always wondered if platinum wasn't an inspiration: the gleam of silver but untarnishable like gold. And rare. However, it would be no more use than gold in armour!
Lost One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2003, 02:39 AM   #5
Gorwingel
Beholder of the Mists
 
Gorwingel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now
Posts: 1,436
Gorwingel has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

At first I thought about platinum too, but then I realized that platinum is much heavier but stronger than gold. So probably mithril is a combination metal containing the best properties of all of these really precious white metals. Like the lightness and strength of titanium and the shine of platinum. It is completely imaginary though and I really think that there is nothing like it out there. Unless someone could find a way to single out these properties and combine them into some amazing super-metal.
__________________
Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance
Gorwingel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2003, 03:07 AM   #6
Iargwath
Wight
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 237
Iargwath has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Iargwath Send a message via AIM to Iargwath
Sting

Why don't we have a look at the actual properties of Titanium? Maybe we can conclude if this element is close to Tolkien's descriptions of Mithril?

Mithril:[*]Has a silvery lustre when polished[*]Does not tarnish[*]Strong and sturdy (as steel)[*]Lightweight[*]Could be bent into different forms (e.g chain mail)

Properties of Titanium (47.867 amu)
Pure titanium is a lustrous white metal with low density, high strength, and high corrosion resistance. It is resistant to dilute sulfuric and hydrochloric acids, moist chlorine gas, most organic acids, and chloride solutions. Titanium is only ductile when it is free of oxygen.
Titanium is as strong as steel, but it is 45% lighter. The metal is 60% heavier than aluminum, but it is twice as strong. Titanium metal is considered to be physiologically inert. Pure titanium dioxide is reasonably clear, with an extremely high index of refraction and an optical dispersion hgher than that of diamond.

Quote:
Pure titanium is a lustrous white metal...
Mithril:- Has a silvery lustre when polished

Quote:
with low density...
Mithril:- Could be bent into different forms (not too sure if low density enables flexibility in metals)

Quote:
...and high corrosion resistance.
Mithril:- Does not tarnsih

Quote:
high strength...Titanium is as strong as steel...The metal is 60% heavier than aluminum, but it is twice as strong...
Mithril:- Strong and sturdy (as steel)

Quote:
Titanium is as strong as steel, but it is 45% lighter...47.867 amu (very light)
Mithril:- Lightweight

I am thinking this metal is closest to Tolkein's descriptions of Mithril...other metals such as Silver and Platinum do not come as close...

Properties of Silver (107.8682 amu):
Pure silver has a brilliant white metallic luster. Silver is slightly harder than gold. It is very ductile and malleable, exceeded in these properties by gold and palladium. Pure silver has the highest electrical and thermal conductivity of all metals. Silver possesses the lowest contact resistance of all metals. Silver is stable in pure air and water, although it tarnishes upon exposure to ozone, hydrogen sulfide, or air containing sulfur.

Properties of Platinum (195.078 amu):
The metal is a beautiful silvery-white when pure, and malleable and ductile. The metal is corrosion-resistant. The catalytic properties of the six platinum family metals are outstanding (hydrogen and oxygen explode in the presence of platinum). Platinum's wear- and tarnish-resistance characteristics are well suited for making fine jewelry.
Other distinctive properties include resistance to chemical attack, excellent high-temperature characteristics, and stable electrical properties. All these properties have been exploited for industrial applications. Platinum does not oxidize in air at any temperature but can be corroded by cyanides, halogens, sulfur, and caustic alkalis.

Platinum comes close. However, it is not lightwieght (195.078 amu as opposed to Titanium's 47.867 amu) and strong? Platinum is more likely used for coating other metals, since it has performs well at high temperatures...

Any further thoughts?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:09 AM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Iargwath ]
__________________
'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40

My M-e Forum
Iargwath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2003, 03:32 AM   #7
Gorwingel
Beholder of the Mists
 
Gorwingel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now
Posts: 1,436
Gorwingel has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Yes it would be good to look at the actual data of the metals. Just to add on to information that Iargwath has...
According to my Periodic Table...
Titanium: Density: 7.13 g/cm^3
Silver: Density: 10.50 g/cm^3
Platinum: Density: 21.45 g/cm^3

And just to compare it to something else
Gold: Density: 19.3 g/cm^3

Titanium does have the much, much, much lower density. It is even much lower than silver than I expected. And I do know that if you want something to be lightweight and strong you would use Titanium (they make bikes too out of Titanium). Platinum is much too heavy, and it is hard to bend, and is actually quite dull. I heard somewhere that most Platinum jewelery is actually plated with Rhodium to give it increased shine and brilliance.

The reason that we have probably never seen a Titanium chain mail is that would be extremely expensive (much like Mithril), so the strength of it in a mail like application has probably never been tested.

But I still think the price of platinum is much higher per ounce than Titanium, but I am not sure.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:36 AM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Gorwingel ]
__________________
Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance
Gorwingel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2003, 06:18 AM   #8
Iargwath
Wight
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 237
Iargwath has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Iargwath Send a message via AIM to Iargwath
Sting

Quote:
The reason that we have probably never seen a Titanium chain mail is that would be extremely expensive (much like Mithril), so the strength of it in a mail like application has probably never been tested.
I thought this was also the case Gorwingel [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] However, Titanium is now being sold as spool wire, in order to be transformed into chain mail. It is evident that Titanium is one of the most expensive chain mail that is available today (Anodized Titanium-grade 5 hard 0.020" 24Ga, being the most expensive).

Quote:
There are two main options available to the apprentice armorer for making mail. The first is to buy rings that are already formed, the second is to form the rings from wire. A mail shirt requires 5000 to 9000 rings, depending on ring size and shirt size. Making rings from steel wire is the cheapest means of producing mail, but involves considerably more work than buying pre-formed rings. Spools of steel wire are available from hardware stores in either galvanized (zinc) or unplated varieties. 300 series stainless steel (wire or rings) is also a good choice. It is more expensive and may be hard to find, but is softer to work with and easier to maintain. Another metal option available to today's Armorer is titanium. Titanium is desirable for its high strength to weight ratio. Both stainless steel and titanium alloys are available from welding supply houses as spooled wire. Source

And i also found a website which distributes wire/spool. There you can see that Titanium is being sold, and is one of the most expensive wire/spool being sold...

Wire/Spool Page
__________________
'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40

My M-e Forum
Iargwath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2003, 11:52 AM   #9
drigel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
drigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
drigel has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I always thought mithril was the one element in ME unsullied by Morgoth. So, by that fact, it had some inherent quality that cannot be quantifyable... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
drigel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2003, 02:45 PM   #10
Lady Snickerdoodle
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Lady Snickerdoodle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: in the cookie jar
Posts: 256
Lady Snickerdoodle has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

umm... wow.. I am humbled by your brilliance... My teacher never made us learn the periodic table so I am kind of confused, but I get everything else.
Just out of a further need to bewilder myself beyond oblivion, what is the Ring made out of? (disclaimer: i can not offer any opinions or thoughts on this because i seriously do not know what im talking about...
[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )
__________________
"Let me handle this, I'm British."
~hitchhikers guide
Lady Snickerdoodle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2003, 06:17 PM   #11
Lost One
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 67
Lost One has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

In defence of platinum's appearance - it isn't dull. I have access to 19th century Russian platinum coins, which have nver been treated with anything, and they are beautifully bright and shining.
Lost One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2003, 07:49 PM   #12
Gorwingel
Beholder of the Mists
 
Gorwingel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now
Posts: 1,436
Gorwingel has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
In defence of platinum's appearance - it isn't dull
Well Lost One that is just what I had heard. I don't have access to platinum in my home because my mother is a gold fan. Thank you for correcting me and giving me the proper information though [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

29 dollars per pound!!!! That is expensive! (the other metals are only going for a few dollers a pound). Iargwath that does surprise me that they are selling supplies to make mail out of Titanium. It would make an amazing mail shirt, and it would be light. I wonder if there is anyone out on the internet who has made one or has had one made?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:51 PM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Gorwingel ]
__________________
Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance
Gorwingel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2003, 08:05 PM   #13
doug*platypus
Delver in the Deep
 
doug*platypus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 963
doug*platypus has just left Hobbiton.
The Eye

Interesting to hear about the platinum coins. I've never been a fan of platinum rings, though. I do think they look plain compared to silver or gold.

I'd rather have a mail shirt of mithril than titanium or platinum. Dunno. Maybe Middle-Earth is just more fun than science. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
__________________
But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.
doug*platypus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2003, 09:30 PM   #14
Lady Snickerdoodle
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Lady Snickerdoodle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: in the cookie jar
Posts: 256
Lady Snickerdoodle has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

Quote:
Maybe Middle-Earth is just more fun than science.
Yeah, I'm beginning to come to that conclusion too...
But in a purely hypothetical sense.
__________________
"Let me handle this, I'm British."
~hitchhikers guide
Lady Snickerdoodle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2003, 09:32 PM   #15
Lady Snickerdoodle
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Lady Snickerdoodle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: in the cookie jar
Posts: 256
Lady Snickerdoodle has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Oh yeah, by the way, I want titanium chain mail too! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Except for it would be really expensive, wouldnt it... Well, maybe I could just get a chain mail tank top...
__________________
"Let me handle this, I'm British."
~hitchhikers guide
Lady Snickerdoodle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2003, 09:54 PM   #16
Finwe
Deathless Sun
 
Finwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos
Posts: 2,609
Finwe has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Finwe
Sting

Perhaps an alloy of Titanium and Platinum would give the finished product both the look and feel that it should have.
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
Finwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2003, 01:48 AM   #17
Iargwath
Wight
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 237
Iargwath has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Iargwath Send a message via AIM to Iargwath
Sting

Quote:
It would make an amazing mail shirt, and it would be light. I wonder if there is anyone out on the internet who has made one or has had one made?
I am thinking of contacting the webmaster, who sells the spool wire to make the mail shirts...I am sure he/she has knowledge about Titanium mail shirts [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
__________________
'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40

My M-e Forum
Iargwath is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:59 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.