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Old 01-14-2002, 02:27 PM   #1
Adariana
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Sting What is Gandalf?

What race is Gandalf?
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Old 01-14-2002, 02:41 PM   #2
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Maia, a Demi-God. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 01-19-2002, 03:59 PM   #3
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????
I thought that valar created the wizards under 2nd age to help the people in middle-eart in the war against sauron. But maybe he was a maia, i dont know.
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Old 01-19-2002, 11:06 PM   #4
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They were called Istari. They were sent out of the west to help battle Sauron.
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Old 01-19-2002, 11:07 PM   #5
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P.S Sauron was a Maia.
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Old 01-20-2002, 02:39 AM   #6
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Read Unfinished Tales, there's a whole chapter on Istari, where you'll find out aboud Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast.
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Old 02-06-2002, 07:28 AM   #7
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Quote:
I thought that valar created the wizards under 2nd age to help the people in middle-eart in the war against sauron.
Maeglin, the Istari weren't created per se by the Valar. The Istari were Maia who were told to go to ME by the Valar. The Istari were sent in corporeal bodies, which could die (as evidenced by Gandalf and Saruman), age, and they could forget their duty, which was to help the Elves and Men defeat Sauron. After their duty was done, the Istari were free to return to Aman.
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Old 02-06-2002, 01:04 PM   #8
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Not to mention they were sent in the Third age not Second, [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 02-07-2002, 07:55 PM   #9
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Gandalf was indeed one of the Istari. They are a race, closest to what would be called a Wizard. They were created by Illuvitar (who created everything else), and are like arch-angels; sent to Arda to help with the problems and people of Middle Earth.
I'm not really sure if they are a type of Maiar, though.

Just so you know, Adariana: the Valar are the protectors and maintainers of Middle Earth. The Maia serve the Valar. As I said, I'm not quite sure if the Istari are a type of Maiar. They could be, but I always imagined them to be an independant race. Sauron and Tom Bombadil are two examples of the Maiar.
Does anyone know what Goldberry is?
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Old 02-07-2002, 08:12 PM   #10
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Arwen, the Istari are definitely Maiar, in the Sil, it mentions Olorin, wisest of the Maiar. As to Tom Bombadil and Goldberry - Tolkien never said that either of them were Maiar, in fact he never said what they were at all.
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Old 07-15-2002, 09:14 AM   #11
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Gandalf was Maiar and an Istar [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
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Old 07-15-2002, 09:20 AM   #12
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Question

<font color=white> It has never been clear (nor ever will be in my opinion) what Tom and Goldberry are. If you are curious Arwen I would reccomend searching this site for the various threads on the topic.

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Old 07-15-2002, 09:25 AM   #13
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Olorin, the wisest of the istari, is another name for Gandalf. Just as Mithrandir is his elvish name, and Tharkun his name among the dwarves, Olorin was his northern name (if I remember correctly). Check the index of LOTR.
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Old 07-15-2002, 09:31 AM   #14
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Olorin was his name in Aman. In the north he was simply known as Gandalf, as far as I recall.

Quote:
Mithrandir we called him in elf-fashion,' said Faramir, 'and he was content. Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.'
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Old 07-15-2002, 09:41 AM   #15
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Thanks, *Varda*! *curtsies graciously* I am a bit careless about remembering which name is which.

This might mean that Gandalf's 'original' or 'real' or 'personal' name is Olorin, perhaps?

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Old 07-15-2002, 09:45 AM   #16
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if you think about does it matter what we call him if they are "gods" (lesser ones kinda) are they not above names.
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Old 07-15-2002, 09:54 AM   #17
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I wouldn't say they were 'above' names [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Yes they are englished: 'gods' but as Tolkien says that is not entirely accurate they were more accurately: 'angelic beings'

Indeed it does seem they had names in their own language from which Quenya forms were extracted. This according to the Linguistic essay 'Quendi and Eldar' published in The War of the Jewels

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Fingolfin of the Noldor ]
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Old 07-15-2002, 11:13 AM   #18
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*waves cheerily to Fingolfin of the Noldor*

Good point, to refer to the Linguistic essay. Names personalize people and istari, and grant them the respect of being individuals. Even the Bible names Raphael, Gabriel and Michael, the three greatest angels.

Bethberry

PS. How do you think the avatar you made for me looks here?
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Old 07-15-2002, 11:44 AM   #19
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Hi, Bethberry! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I think it looks really great here, better than I expected, actually. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 07-15-2002, 12:20 PM   #20
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Gandalf is a wizard...I don't think he is/was any specific race. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 07-15-2002, 12:52 PM   #21
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Telemundowen, did you read any of the above posts? Gandalf was a member of the Maia, sent to middle earth by Manwe to aid in the fight agains Sauron.
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Old 07-16-2002, 03:07 PM   #22
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Telemundowen, the wizards are the Istari, who in tern are Maiar who are sent to Middle Earth to assist in the fight against Sauron. The show up about 1000 years into the third age.
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Old 07-19-2002, 12:09 PM   #23
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Bethberry says "Olorin, the wisest of the istari, is another name for Gandalf."

Help me out here because I thought Saruman was the head wizard before he became power-mad. Didn't Gandalf say "Saruman the White is the greatest of my order" and look to him for council in "The Council of Elrond" chapter of FotR? So did Gandalf get the name Olorin after Saruman's fall?
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Old 07-19-2002, 01:50 PM   #24
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Greyhavener: Gandalf is indeed the wisest of the Maiar, and very much acknowledged as it after Sarumans treachery was discovered. The reason, I think, that Saruman became Head of the Order, was that he was the most intelligent of them, and in addition he knew a LOT about Sauron... Though both Galadriel and Elrond wanted Gandalf to be the greatest of the Order instead...

Arwen Undómiël: I think Goldberry was an elf, but Tom Bombadil; concerning him, Tolkien has stated that his race is one of the mysteries of Middle-Earth [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. There is an article here, though, if you look up Tom Bombadil. Some even thinks that he's a Vala, or Eru himself.
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Old 07-20-2002, 08:36 AM   #25
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Greetings Greyhavener,

Quote:
Help me out here because I thought Saruman was the head wizard before he became power-mad. Didn't Gandalf say "Saruman the White is the greatest of my order" and look to him for council in "The Council of Elrond" chapter of FotR? So did Gandalf get the name Olorin after Saruman's fall?
Here are the sources which I relied on when I called Gandalf the wisest of the istari.

From the chapter "Valaquenta" in The Silmarillion:
Quote:
Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin. He too dwelt in Lorien, but his way took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience.
Of Melian much is told in the Quenta Silmarillion. But of Olorin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Illuvatar, and took pity on their sorrows and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.
In LOTR, just after the passage which *Varda* quotes above ("The Window on the West", TTT), Farmair says to Frodo:
Quote:
'Mithrandir was lost! ... An evil fate seems to have pursued your fellowship. It is hard indeed to believe that one of so great wisdom, and of power--for many wonderful tings he did among us--could perish, and so much lore be taken from the the world.... This Mithrandir was, I now guess, more than a lore-master: a great mover of the deeds that are done in our time. Had he been among us to consult concerning the hard words of our dream, he could have made them clear to us without need of messanger.
There's also a little bit more on "Gandalf-Olorin" and Glorfindel in "Last Writings" in HOME 12.

As for the deference which Gandalf showed Saruman, I would think that comes from Gandalf's natural respect for proper order and authority, since Saruman was the eldest or first istari. (Gandalf the Grey on a thread here at BD has discussed this in some detail; if I remember correctly, the thread was started by Child of the 7th Age, and was about whether Gandalf should have been more suspicious of Saruman. If you PM GtG, I'm sure he could direct you.)

A brief explanation of the differences between Saruman and Gandalf, and of the affair of who led the White Council, can be found in the chapter "Of the Rings of Power" in The Silmarillion.

The issue resolves around the distinctions of meaning between "great" and "wise", which to me are not synonymous. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Bethberry
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