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Old 12-11-2009, 06:09 PM   #2201
Folwren
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I think if Lithor were really smart, he'd mostly be quiet and just speak when spoken to....and....practically say what he said to Thornden. But you'll probably find that in famous trials, they don't say much.

If I were you, I'd look up court martials.

By the bye, I do not feel sorry for Lommy's characters.

I am so looking forward to Saeryn's reaction to Athanar's idea. Hahahaha.

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Old 12-11-2009, 06:47 PM   #2202
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Originally Posted by Folwren View Post
I am so looking forward to Saeryn's reaction to Athanar's idea. Hahahaha.
That will be interesting indeed!

Heh, Groin: Ceterum censeo, Carthaginem esse delendam..., maybe Cato or Cicero would not be of Lithor's style?

I'm looking forwards to the next day!

In about 20-24 hours from the time stamp of this message I will post the new day to be opened. You have time that long to add anything you wish to add for this day (and of course things can be embedded there afterwards if you suddenly realise something should be added up).
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:00 PM   #2203
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Mwahahaha

I am so very pleased to be the originator of the distinct displeasure of all of Athanar's biological children.

Now why isn't there an evil smiley?
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:10 PM   #2204
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I considered posting for Lilige, going down to the kitchens, finding out the news, getting all confused again...but I decided that she would have had food sent up for herself and Aedre. She can get confused tomorrow. She just went to bed tonight.
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:16 PM   #2205
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Degas has too much food for thought. It's bed time. He'll have his Very Important Conversation in the morning.
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:54 PM   #2206
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Treason!

Alright, in the course of my browsing through books I found quite a few cases where Medieval law was put into practice. A lot of it is considered cruel to our modern minds; therefore, I don't know if we would use any of these punishments on Lithor or even Javan. *evil smile* Since ya'll know about the medieval world I am posting what I have found.

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In England, those in charge of law and order believed that people would only learn how to behave properly if they feared what would happen to them if they broke the law. Even the Ďsmallestí offences had serious punishments. The authorities feared the poor simply because there were many more poor than rich and any revolt could be potentially damaging - as the Peasants Revolt of 1381 proved.
By the time of Henry II, the system of law in England had been improved because Henry sent out his own judges from London to listen to cases throughout all Englandís counties. Each accused person had to go through an ordeal. There were three ordeals:

Here are some interesting superstitions I found. The first is called ordeal by fire. An accused person held a red hot iron bar and walked three paces. His hand was then bandaged and left for three days. If the wound was getting better after three days, you were innocent. If the wound had clearly not got any better, you were guilty. Ordeal by water. An accused person was tied up and thrown into water. If you floated you were guilty of the crime you were accused of (this I found particularly interesting because I know that they used this method in the 17th century all over the, then, thirteen colonies for Witch Trials). Ordeal by combat. This was used by noblemen who had been accused of something. They would fight in combat with their accuser. Whereas, the other options might prove ridiculous to our "sophisticated" modern minds, this one might prove interesting. Whoever won was right. Whoever lost was usually dead at the end of the fight.

In 1215, the Pope decided that priests in England must not help with ordeals. As a result, ordeals were replaced by trials by juries. To start with, these were not popular with the people as they felt that their neighbours might have a grudge against them and use the opportunity of a trial to get their revenge. After 1275, a law was introduced which allowed people to be tortured if they refused to go to trial before a jury.

If you were found guilty of a crime you would expect to face a severe punishment. Thieves had their hands cut off. Women who committed murder were strangled and then burnt. People who illegally hunted in royal parks had their ears cut off and high treason was punishable by being hung, drawn and quartered. There were very few prisons as they cost money and local communities were not prepared to pay for their upkeep. It was cheaper to execute someone for bad crimes or mutilate them and then let them go.

Most towns had a gibbet just outside of it. People were hung on these and their bodies left to rot over the weeks as a warning to others. However, such violent punishments clearly did not put off people. In 1202, the city of Lincoln had 114 murders, 89 violent robberies and 65 people were wounded in fights. Only 2 people were executed for these crimes and it can be concluded that many in Lincoln got away with their crime.
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Old 12-11-2009, 09:11 PM   #2207
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Groin, we're in Tolkien's Middle-Earth, not in the Christian Middle-Ages of Europe...

Even the Vikings were more civil.

And the "ordeal by combat" (I'm not sure what the actual historical term actually is as in Finnish it's called "God's verdict") was only between even persons by class... eg. two noblemen, two knights etc. and the winner was winner by God's favour - so if an "oldtimer" and a young "bodybuilder" met in a challenge (probably not initiated by the gaffer ) it was God's will the muscle-hero was more pleasing to him and had right on the issue.

But fear not, lord Athanar is not going to suggest to burn Lithor on the stake, mutilate him, or anything like that. Actually he's planning an overall deal between the nobles for all that happened- and Lithor will bear some blunt of it. But he will also have a chance to talk openly against W & W of the late evening's happenings...
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Old 12-11-2009, 09:41 PM   #2208
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Thanks!

And you should start piling up Aedre's anger when she will hear later on that your parents are conspiring for someone to preceed her in inheritance!
Hmmmm....

NŠin's reaction to all this has me curious--as far as he's concerned, Wulfric and Wilheard are probably lost causes, but he might approve in Aedre's case. On the other hand, Dwarves are ridiculously loyal to the "rightful" lord--I'm not sure how he'd deal with the (effective) disinheritance of Athanar's heir in favour of Saeryn--remember that he's not sure Scarburg's fixation on her alleged "rights" is a good thing.

Curious indeed.

Meanwhile, while I cogitate on the next episode of "Dwarven Commentaries: The Rohirrim Series", it occurs to me that there could be interesting interactions between the House of Athanar and NŠin over this. Athanar and Wynflaed on purely theoretical issues. The boys would likely get a round scolding to shut up and be Men. Aedre--she's interesting. Nienna, if Aedre needs a radical new philosophy on life from someone only a mite taller than her, she can run into NŠin at some point. He's shy enough around strange humans (especially their strange females) that he'll be as wary of her at first as she of him. Funny, I bet he'd try to talk her into learning an artisan's craft... can't see that going over very well with the Eorl.
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Old 12-11-2009, 09:44 PM   #2209
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$.02

Word up, Groin.

While I'm perfectly happy to be historically accurate, I feel like maybe our kids can temper their violence a bit?

I'm all for putting people in the stocks for days at a time, forcing them to fast as punishment, whipping, caning, hard labor...

A sentence to haul stone for masonry, for instance.

Or if we want brutality-lite, perhaps the hand that struck the girl might be broken? Then again, I feel like our characters are too pragmatic to cripple a valuable worker in a poor holding.

So I'd envision something more like a whipping (pain + humiliation) coupled with some hard labor (at least the Hall gets something out of all the trouble), rather than tossing Javan and Lithor into the Scar.

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Old 12-11-2009, 09:52 PM   #2210
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Great idea Form!

That friendship between NŠin and Aedre would be an interesting thing to read - and it would make Aedre into something quite special!
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:55 PM   #2211
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I, too, like your idea, Formy.

I do NOT like the mideival way of punishing people. It is so brutal and unfair and unjust. I think that in Rohan, the people might understand that punishment must be dealt out with some good end in mind, otherwise....it'd really be pointless. Thanks for your research, though, Groin.

k, I'm off to bed. I won't be back on until Sunday.

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Old 12-11-2009, 11:37 PM   #2212
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Quote:
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Only 2 people were executed for these crimes and it can be concluded that many in Lincoln got away with their crime.
I may as well mention that since (it sounds like) these laws were prescriptive rather than descriptive, it's also likely that they were not put into practice as consistently and formally as history textbooks might suggest. It's not as if every medieval authority figure was iron-fisted, stone-hearted, and blood-thirsty. They were humans and liable to be complex.
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Old 12-11-2009, 11:42 PM   #2213
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Heh, Groin: Ceterum censeo, Carthaginem esse delendam..., maybe Cato or Cicero would not be of Lithor's style?
Just noticed this! Ha ha. I had forgotten all about that.
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Old 12-11-2009, 11:58 PM   #2214
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I, too, like your idea, Formy.

I do NOT like the mideival way of punishing people. It is so brutal and unfair and unjust. I think that in Rohan, the people might understand that punishment must be dealt out with some good end in mind, otherwise....it'd really be pointless. Thanks for your research, though, Groin.

k, I'm off to bed. I won't be back on until Sunday.

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I'm not suggesting that we reinstate trial by various ordeals, but in dangerous environments, discipline is necessarily more strict. Since warfare featured rather prominently in the schedules of the medievals and since they had whole classes of people devoted to maintaining armies and fighting each other, they would have also had a martial-like system of laws and punishments in place much of the time. Probably not as much so when the threat of invasion, famine, or what have you, was not looming.

In our case, during the War of the Ring, the types of punishment that Groin mentioned above would probably have been practiced by the Rohirrim. But now, during a time of peace and prosperity? It's clearly unnecessary, because the stakes are lower.

(P.S. Since I can't really pass up an opportunity to put in a good word for the Middle Ages...considering how long the medieval monarchies lasted given the imbalance in classes, there was probably more rhyme and reason behind their legislation than they often get credit for.)
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Old 12-12-2009, 02:10 PM   #2215
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That is a fun idea Formy, Nogrod. Will Nain be invited to the council to watch, or is this strictly a human matter?

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Even the Vikings were more civil.
I'll bite my tongue with that remark.

But since you brought up Vikings, they used a method called Jernbyrd 'carrying of (hot) iron' (Old Norse: JŠrnburdr). The Christian church introduced the Vikings to ordeal by fire. The most common method was to grab a piece of iron from boiling water and walk 9 paces with it carrying it in ones hands. This way of deciding the truth outlived the Viking Age. Inga from Varteig in 1218 'carried iron' to prove her son HŚkon HŚkonsson (king of Norway 1217 - 1263) was the rightful heir to the throne of Norway. In a way it makes sense. Why would a dishonest man risk burning his hand in a boiling water? A man with the truth on his side will always be more willing to endure hardship than a lier. But this is somewhat irrelevant, unless this is used as a way to ensure who is right when two conflicting views come up.

Another punishment, however, which involves no physical punishment (in a way) is a temporary outlawment of the offender. Eric the Red was an outlaw (twice I think it was) for his crimes. I am just thinking out loud now. Do what you like.

Anyway, looking forward to Nogrod's post.

P.S. Thanks for you defence of the Middle-Ages, Gwathagor.
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:19 PM   #2216
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That is a fun idea Formy, Nogrod. Will Nain be invited to the council to watch, or is this strictly a human matter?
If by "council" you mean Athanar's court of justice in the morning, I doubt NŠin would be specifically invited to attend. The only people mandated to be there would be the accused, and anyone involved in the carrying out of justice. However, as a court is a public act of justice on the part of the eorl, I figure anyone in Scarburg could turn up, and given the way things are going, I think a lot might out of curiosity. Whether NŠin will, I'm not sure. He might think it a good idea to have another balanced head present, in case the punishment is severe and the old Scarburgians decide to get hotheaded--on the other hand, he might avoid it for that reason.
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:30 PM   #2217
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I can tell you this...

Lord Athanar will first call for a meeting of some people of status offering them a package-deal of sorts. That will be totally confidential between him, Wynflaed, Saeryn, Degas, Thornden and Coenred. You writers may sure read about that discussion but apart from the kitchen stuff who could eavesdrop there are no others summoned there.

After that there will be the hearings of a few people and decisions. That latter event would not be advertised too heavily but it would not be prohibited either (I'm expecting quite a turn-out there ).
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Old 12-12-2009, 04:33 PM   #2218
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If by "council" you mean Athanar's court of justice in the morning,
You make it sound so modern. But if it is the nobles who will be deciding the outcome I pictured it more of a council. If we did it Norse style twelve members, at least, would have to be summoned for a jury.
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Old 12-12-2009, 06:37 PM   #2219
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Okay. I'm too tired to write a post now and will turn to bed.

But anyone willing to start a new day, feel free to write it. I'll try to make a post tomorrow for Athanar calling for a meeting of the group of people he would like to hear before going forwards with the hearings & decisions.

If someome goes forwards and writes for the next day, the first post there should have a title: 12th of November, year 15 (fourth age)

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If we did it Norse style twelve members, at least, would have to be summoned for a jury.
Lord Athanar will not make a court with anyone else having a chance to decide on the issues that are for him to decide... and neither did lord Eodwine btw... The lord is there to rule and make the judgements. He may then listen to the people involved or people he chooses... or not listen to them.
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Old 12-12-2009, 08:42 PM   #2220
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Lord Athanar will not make a court with anyone else having a chance to decide on the issues that are for him to decide... and neither did lord Eodwine btw... The lord is there to rule and make the judgements. He may then listen to the people involved or people he chooses... or not listen to them.
Tyrant!

P.S. I got up a post for Lithor and Erbrand. It is extremely mundane and rather cliche but fun to write. I could not wait to begin with my characters now that toMorrow is finally here!
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Old 12-13-2009, 08:10 AM   #2221
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Hm, I think everybody wanted to take their character out in the morning

I was thinking that Hilderinc could meet Lithor on the way back, but then I realised that it actually makes sense if he meets Erbrand. Groin, hope that's fine with you. (And there is still this misunderstanding in the background where Hilderinc thought because of the bruise that it was Erbrand who was fighting yesterday...)
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Old 12-13-2009, 02:43 PM   #2222
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That was a funny way to end a post, Legate. I'll get a response up for Erbrand later today, he will remember Hildernic from the kitchen. Glad to see that he is warming up to Scarburg.
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:51 PM   #2223
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Groin,

I just read your post....I also just got home (less than an hour ago). I'll have Thornden meet your character as soon as I can write a post, which may be tonight...

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Old 12-14-2009, 11:02 AM   #2224
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I have continued the misunderstanding, Legate. You can take this in many comical directions. Love to see what you come up with. Plus, Folwren, I have a response up for Lithor.
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Old 12-14-2009, 11:12 AM   #2225
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Lithor was in search of Thornden, was he not?
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:27 PM   #2226
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I have continued the misunderstanding, Legate. You can take this in many comical directions.
Good! I shall see. I now have to study for tomorrow's exam, but if I feel like needing a break, I might try to write something - or tomorrow, if nothing else
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"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."
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Old 12-14-2009, 02:12 PM   #2227
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Lithor was in search of Thornden, was he not?
Yes. *tags Folwren*


P.S. I have posted for Lithor. Let us see what Thornden thinks of Javan's actions.
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Old 12-14-2009, 02:30 PM   #2228
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P.S. I have posted for Lithor. Let us see what Thornden thinks of Javan's actions.
He's really cranky, but I fear that I would have disappointed you, for I didn't put too much of his inner thoughts into the post. I had him show a little annoyance...but not much. He's a pretty controlled sort of guy, usually.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:52 PM   #2229
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Hey, sorry I got a busy day and the few next ones look no less so. But I'll try to post something tomorrow. You're doing great!

Foley, if you have any ideas for the Javan-case let me know. We could actually work up something via PM first...
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:35 AM   #2230
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Hey, sorry I got a busy day and the few next ones look no less so. But I'll try to post something tomorrow. You're doing great!
Oh, dear. Okay. And I was so looking forward to your posts, too. Oh well. We can wait.

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Foley, if you have any ideas for the Javan-case let me know. We could actually work up something via PM first...
Sure, I'll start a post by PM, if that's what you mean. Anything, just so I can be writing.

-- Foley
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:17 AM   #2231
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Posted! The ball is on your side, Groin. I think this is really quite fun Looking forward to what we are going to make out of this... (and as for Erbrand's plans, for the record, I think Hilderinc would be a good person to tell this to - just for your, player's information. It doesn't have to be rightaway, but in any case, I think it would work. Still we can keep some of the misunderstandings unresolved even until later, though )
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:42 AM   #2232
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I have posted for Lithor, Foley. If Athanar does decide to call Javan forward, I really have a defense for him.

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Posted! The ball is on your side, Groin. I think this is really quite fun Looking forward to what we are going to make out of this... (and as for Erbrand's plans, for the record, I think Hilderinc would be a good person to tell this to - just for your, player's information. It doesn't have to be rightaway, but in any case, I think it would work. Still we can keep some of the misunderstandings unresolved even until later, though)
I'll start on a post as soon as I have a free moment!
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:53 AM   #2233
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Ha. Lithor amuses me.

I need you to change something...your post said:

Quote:
ďNow if Athanar and Wynflaed have enough sense about them, which in this case I doubt, they will keep the fact that Javan was the bully quiet; however, if they do not, then dealing with Wulfric and Wilheard is punishment enough. They will break your brotherís hand if they have half the chance.Ē

The effect of his rambling came to him quickly. Thornden was no longer looking at him but was staring away and breathing hard the way men do when aggravated. Lithor would have laughed if he had not known that Thornden would be seriously offended at this.
Although upset, Thornden really wouldn't show such obvious signs of anger. Well, maybe he would, but not that kind. So...stick this in:

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They will break your brother's hand if they have half the chance."

The effect of his rambling came to him quickly when Thornden lifted his head sharply to look him in the face. His lips tightened in a hard line and his eyes flashed as he glanced about the hall for either of the eorl's sons. "Wulfric or Wilheard, you mean?" Thornden said, looking back at Lithor. Lithor nodded. (or whatever you want) Thornden shut his mouth and clenched his jaw, reverting his eyes to the fire once again.
And then I can see Lithor going ahead and asking why Javan did what he did, maybe to distract Thornden from the idea of the two young-men breaking Javan's hand. (By the way, Lommy, if you happen to read this - if you want your two characters to survive with all their limbs in tact, do not have them do anything like that to Javan. I would be furious, much less Thornden...and Saeryn...)

I'll see about posting before going to school today.

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Old 12-15-2009, 03:33 PM   #2234
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Still frantically busy in RL... prolly a day or two more.

I had time to read up though and it looks good as ever.

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Originally Posted by Foley
Sure, I'll start a post by PM, if that's what you mean.
Yup!

Hoping to join the fray sooner than later.

Mnemo & Nienna, if you have any time to think what Aedre would tell her parents in the morning about the incident & whether she should join the hearing (and what would be Wynflaed's stance on that), please PM about it.
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:14 PM   #2235
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Sorry I've been scarce. I'll be busy till the end of this week and then I'll have more time.

I cleared my PM box, sorry! I'll look at things and write as soon as possible.
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:12 AM   #2236
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The misunderstanding continues! Did you want Erbrand to stay Gwath? I can easily change my post, I just did not know what to write. As for Hildernic's misconceptions of Erbrand, I say we leave it as it is and not go out of our way to correct it. Misunderstandings are common in life and in this case Hildernic is not too far off.
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:17 AM   #2237
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Either I don't write Thornden well, or he is an unfortunate man who is often misunderstood.

That's an interesting suggestion you had Lithor make, Groin. I'll have to think about how I respond. Will post later...after I've written this paper for school.

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Old 12-16-2009, 10:30 AM   #2238
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Quote:
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The misunderstanding continues! Did you want Erbrand to stay Gwath? I can easily change my post, I just did not know what to write. As for Hildernic's misconceptions of Erbrand, I say we leave it as it is and not go out of our way to correct it. Misunderstandings are common in life and in this case Hildernic is not too far off.
I don't care. Whatever you want to do.
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:37 AM   #2239
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The misunderstanding continues! Did you want Erbrand to stay Gwath? I can easily change my post, I just did not know what to write. As for Hildernic's misconceptions of Erbrand, I say we leave it as it is and not go out of our way to correct it. Misunderstandings are common in life and in this case Hildernic is not too far off.
Okay, I have some time I can dedicate to posting now again at last, so I am going to read what happened and possibly post
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:05 AM   #2240
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By the way, Gwath (or anybody), just a note - Hilderinc is not a totally "looks like all others" Eorling (you can read his description) - notably his hair is not blonde, but more like light brown, and it is not long, but shorter (whatever cultural implications long hair might have among the Rohirrim, his is just considerably shorter than usual), and his eyes are simply dark (I think, however, that might be common even among some of the fair-haired Rohirrim). He is also not so overtly tall, may be even shorter than Crabannan? (Probably if so, then not by much, but still?)

It is not that he would be so strikingly different or anything (he is far from looking like a half-Dunlending or anything like that), and he is definitely an Eorling (he likely has some "typically Rohirric" features discerneable easily especially by an outsider), it just seems that the recessive genes have somehow lost the battle in his case (Hmm... I may as well edit his bio with this somehow "advanced explanatory stuff".)

That's not to say, Crabannan still can percieve him like a "Rohir like all the others", as to the outsiders things can seem a lot different (to some Haradian, for example Hilderinc's hair would still seem incredibly fair), depends on what features they focus in, but anyway, this is just to say that "tall with long blonde hair" stereotype won't exactly work here.
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