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Old 09-25-2020, 05:51 AM   #281
Huinesoron
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Cur does have this hint of a smirk which makes him look slightly amused. I wouldn't call that expression happy, but it does seem like he is in a good mood. Given that he's facing the gloomy Cel, it's like he's amused but tolerant of Cel's attempts of wooing Luthien.
I was aiming for 'sneer', but am happy with 'smirk'.

Oh look, here's trouble:



I am cheating outrageously by keeping him in neutral pose, but I really enjoy the cloak-swoosh.

hS
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Old 09-25-2020, 01:10 PM   #282
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And

we have

a new video!

Galadriel's Lament: Remastered

With shiny new digital effects and also probably everything stays the right size (probably)! Yeah, it gave me a few problems along the way...

Have not made a new credits page yet, so that's not in there. But everything else is!

hS
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Old 09-25-2020, 01:31 PM   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
And

we have

a new video!

Galadriel's Lament: Remastered

With shiny new digital effects and also probably everything stays the right size (probably)! Yeah, it gave me a few problems along the way...

Have not made a new credits page yet, so that's not in there. But everything else is!

hS


Do you just have a lot of time on your hands these days or something?

...I love it. It was a very apt choice of effects. There were a few places where I mentally went "ooooooh". But my favourite has got to be the fading in and out of colour that you did for the portraits. They look excellent in both colour and greyscale, but the transition is something slightly surreal.

EDIT: here is the Oath touched up, and the second stanza repeated with slight differences. I think the second stanza is a bit more defiant than the first, so maybe that point is getting better as well. Thanks for the mood description - it actually helped a lot to look at specific words for direction. Any other direction tips for further improvement, before I move on to the middle part? ;-)
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Old 09-26-2020, 12:24 PM   #284
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Do you just have a lot of time on your hands these days or something?
I just get easily distracted while working at home. Shhh, don't tell anyone. (Though most of the drawing was done at lunchtime, fear not.)

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EDIT: here is the Oath touched up, and the second stanza repeated with slight differences. I think the second stanza is a bit more defiant than the first, so maybe that point is getting better as well. Thanks for the mood description - it actually helped a lot to look at specific words for direction. Any other direction tips for further improvement, before I move on to the middle part? ;-)
I was going to just talk about how singable it is, buuuuut I was sitting in front of the microphone, so: Oath, take 1

(I have made no attempt to separate the voices, or even to be particularly Feanorionish; this is just me in normal singing mode.)

hS
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Old 09-27-2020, 01:15 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I was going to just talk about how singable it is, buuuuut I was sitting in front of the microphone, so: Oath, take 1

(I have made no attempt to separate the voices, or even to be particularly Feanorionish; this is just me in normal singing mode.)
That... sounds good! I like it.

I got a little stuck on the actual Oath part. I was following V2 for this piece, but they do the middle section slightly differently, and somewhere there is a transition that I can't catch that shifts the music over - else it stops making sense. Or maybe they key change without telling anyone. Or I just can't hear it right. Dunno. I looked through the other versions, and for the most part they follow V1's music, which lies smoother on paper and makes sense and matches up. So I think I will go with that version for the middle section, because V2 seems to be doing something odd compared to all the rest and I can't quite grasp what. Most of last night and this morning was figuring out how to fit the melody back into the chords, no great progress there, but I hope that in a few days I'll have the whole thing finished, considering the number of repeats.
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Old 09-28-2020, 05:47 AM   #286
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Strictly speaking this isn't Zong news (though a preview might have snuck in), but it's definitely Zong-adjacent: when I went back to the office I started wearing a variety of pin-badges on my jacket, which finally gave me an excuse to order one of Jenny Dolfen's beautiful enamels. Of course, then I got sent back to work from home again, so it's not going to be used, but... it came!



There was literally no possibility that I wouldn't go for Finrod... The Maglor advert-card is a lovely bonus, and frankly a lot nicer than the Red Nasmith I had on my wall back at uni.

EDIT: Sneaky actual Zong update... I've transferred the Duel across to the new software, so we now have snazzy Art Finrod. We don't yet have Sauron, though, so there's nothing to post.

hS

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Old 09-28-2020, 03:13 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Strictly speaking this isn't Zong news (though a preview might have snuck in), but it's definitely Zong-adjacent: when I went back to the office I started wearing a variety of pin-badges on my jacket, which finally gave me an excuse to order one of Jenny Dolfen's beautiful enamels. Of course, then I got sent back to work from home again, so it's not going to be used, but... it came!

There was literally no possibility that I wouldn't go for Finrod... The Maglor advert-card is a lovely bonus, and frankly a lot nicer than the Red Nasmith I had on my wall back at uni.
This photo made my day. Honestly. I was having an absolutely foul morning, dreading the start of a new (disorganized, far away, not favourite by any means) rotation. And then you posted this, and both Finrod and Maglor were so on point that it just made everything better. Thanks for posting it!

Now I wanna get a pin like that. Except that all of my pins have a very short life, and usually end it by being brutally deformed and ripped from my bag after snagging on something. The Sil characters tend to already suffer enough, without a metaphorical re-enactment.



But in Zong-related news, you are not the only one who gets easily distracted! I was supposed to be preparing for my rotation yesterday. Instead...

Oath: the dress rehearsal, and sung for singability test, with no attempts to correct the off key bits. You can also tell that still my brain insists that blood in the veins can only turn anemic.

There are many variations in how exactly to sing it, even among the different performances. I think that the most difficult thing will actually be to agree on a timing/rhythm for each line for duo-ing if we can get someone to join you (possibly Legate again; no one else has responded to me so far - but if we're truly desperate, there is one more person I can try. I'll have to ask someone to ask someone to ask for his contact info though, I haven't seen him in a decade...).

I had a few things I wanted to run by you. In no particular order:
- The middle part, with the Oath. Too quiet? I was going for something ethereal (holy?), not sure how that worked out.
- The versions differ in how they sing the middle part. There is the V2 "sing the whole thing on one note" option. There is the "have it go one note higher, one note lower" option. And a couple of performances alternated between the two. The way it's written it can be sung any way, but I tried to match it to the way I was singing it: single note for first and third stanzas, alternating on second stanza. The pros of this approach are that it emphasizes each part anew, there's no endless repetition, and it highlights "Breath of the West Wind" more if you hit it from the lower constant note rather than the alternating ones which are closer to it. On the downside, it's probably harder to sing this way. Let me know what you think is a good balance for you in terms of sings well - I can alter the music to put a bit more cues in to help match that, maybe.
- I used an un-dirged and slightly un-heroed version of the first attempt for the last stanza, "one by one seven Oath-bound warriors fall". I think that one can go with a bit of despair/heroism, especially if now Cel'n'Cur kinda take over Mae'n'Mag. But if you think it's too much, I can tone it down some more.
- Speaking of that verse, I played around with the rhythm on "those who... those still... Oath will still". Is there a version that you particularly like or dislike? Or should I just make it all in unison?
- Do you think "Swear to this Oath" should be sung by CelnCur, or by someone else (ie one or more of the female crew)? I vote for it to be recorded separately, at least, so that it doesn't cut off the previous phrases short to draw breath.
- Actually, with regards to that line: "swear to this Oath" vs "sworn is the Oath"?

Thanks to this song, I finally learned how to do the 3 note conclusion at the end, which many musical pieces use, but I didn't know which chords they use to make that effect. Now that I think about it, I've learned quite a few tricks while arranging the Zong. It's been quite educational. ^.^
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Old 09-29-2020, 03:37 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
This photo made my day. Honestly. I was having an absolutely foul morning, dreading the start of a new (disorganized, far away, not favourite by any means) rotation. And then you posted this, and both Finrod and Maglor were so on point that it just made everything better. Thanks for posting it!
^_^ Coping with work is essentially why I got the pin in the first place, though in my case it's More Paperwork I'm (always) dreading. What was yours? Because I bet it's more interesting to describe.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Now I wanna get a pin like that. Except that all of my pins have a very short life, and usually end it by being brutally deformed and ripped from my bag after snagging on something. The Sil characters tend to already suffer enough, without a metaphorical re-enactment.
She's got Beren and Luthien too! We could do a pin-based Zong video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
But in Zong-related news, you are not the only one who gets easily distracted! I was supposed to be preparing for my rotation yesterday. Instead...

Oath: the dress rehearsal, and sung for singability test, with no attempts to correct the off key bits. You can also tell that still my brain insists that blood in the veins can only turn anemic.
Hooray, hoorah! This is such a fun song.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
There are many variations in how exactly to sing it, even among the different performances. I think that the most difficult thing will actually be to agree on a timing/rhythm for each line for duo-ing if we can get someone to join you (possibly Legate again; no one else has responded to me so far - but if we're truly desperate, there is one more person I can try. I'll have to ask someone to ask someone to ask for his contact info though, I haven't seen him in a decade...).
I figure one of us can just sing along to the other; it's how I've recorded it as a duet with myself (yep, read on).

I may try and hunt down another vocalist elsewhere, though I'm not sure there are any over there. (Well, I am - if we needed more women!)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
- The middle part, with the Oath. Too quiet? I was going for something ethereal (holy?), not sure how that worked out.
It works. The one thing I'd query is the last two lines of it - "One single hope" etc. You've kept that in the same style, which means it's a very abrupt transition back to the rock parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
- The versions differ in how they sing the middle part. There is the V2 "sing the whole thing on one note" option. There is the "have it go one note higher, one note lower" option. And a couple of performances alternated between the two. The way it's written it can be sung any way, but I tried to match it to the way I was singing it: single note for first and third stanzas, alternating on second stanza. The pros of this approach are that it emphasizes each part anew, there's no endless repetition, and it highlights "Breath of the West Wind" more if you hit it from the lower constant note rather than the alternating ones which are closer to it. On the downside, it's probably harder to sing this way. Let me know what you think is a good balance for you in terms of sings well - I can alter the music to put a bit more cues in to help match that, maybe.
I think it works. 'Harder to sing' is not a problem; I can just rerecord random bits of lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
- I used an un-dirged and slightly un-heroed version of the first attempt for the last stanza, "one by one seven Oath-bound warriors fall". I think that one can go with a bit of despair/heroism, especially if now Cel'n'Cur kinda take over Mae'n'Mag. But if you think it's too much, I can tone it down some more.
- Speaking of that verse, I played around with the rhythm on "those who... those still... Oath will still". Is there a version that you particularly like or dislike? Or should I just make it all in unison?
I noticed no problems with any of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
- Do you think "Swear to this Oath" should be sung by CelnCur, or by someone else (ie one or more of the female crew)? I vote for it to be recorded separately, at least, so that it doesn't cut off the previous phrases short to draw breath.
- Actually, with regards to that line: "swear to this Oath" vs "sworn is the Oath"?
Yeah, I think it should be the chorus; I imagine it as being the only line of the other Sons of Feanor. I spent five minutes just now thinking about how it should go, but I do think "Swear to" is best - because it means "Sworn is the Oath though all Arda reject us" highlights the progress of time.

(I also flipped the first 'we vowed to you' back to 'vow', for the same reason; not that you can tell by listening...!)

... and!

The Oath: Rough Cut

This is very rough. Once again I haven't differentiated the voices, and the video is missing its title and credits, plus one effect inspired by V1 that I haven't gotten round to. Also the transition on Curufin's emblem got reversed for some reason (whoops!). And Curufin has the wrong colour border... yeah, I know, but! It's something at any rate. Perhaps I can clean it up tomorrow.

hS
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Old 09-29-2020, 04:39 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
^_^ Coping with work is essentially why I got the pin in the first place, though in my case it's More Paperwork I'm (always) dreading. What was yours? Because I bet it's more interesting to describe.
Dunno if it's more interesting. It was the first day of a new rotation, at a new location, with no information about where I'm supposed to go - or even what unit I'm supposed to be at. With two orientations one right after the other at the start of the day - an online one for general things, and an in-person one immediately after on a different site from my placement. Documents and instructions not showing up where they are supposed to be. This in preparation for an in-patient (= usually more intense) rotation in a specialty I don't particularly like. And I only got a couple hours of sleep the previous night, for unrelated reasons, which didn't help matters. It was not a good morning. And then, between the orientations and heading over to where my actual placement is, I glimpsed at the Downs for moral support - and there were the pins, right on cue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
She's got Beren and Luthien too! We could do a pin-based Zong video.
A puppet show! :-D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I may try and hunt down another vocalist elsewhere, though I'm not sure there are any over there. (Well, I am - if we needed more women!)
Yeah, if we ever needed more women, I could probably get a whole handful. It's finding the male vocalists which is the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
It works. The one thing I'd query is the last two lines of it - "One single hope" etc. You've kept that in the same style, which means it's a very abrupt transition back to the rock parts.
Hmm. I think I can do a more gradual transition over "sworn is the oath". Or do you think these 2 lines need a style of their own entirely, rather than just transition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I think it works. 'Harder to sing' is not a problem; I can just rerecord random bits of lines.
I think it actually worked quite well in the rough cut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Yeah, I think it should be the chorus; I imagine it as being the only line of the other Sons of Feanor. I spent five minutes just now thinking about how it should go, but I do think "Swear to" is best - because it means "Sworn is the Oath though all Arda reject us" highlights the progress of time.
I did not think of that. Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
(I also flipped the first 'we vowed to you' back to 'vow', for the same reason; not that you can tell by listening...!)
I think both ways work, but I don't think it's a critical difference. The main parts are all in past tense, only the middle can be thought of as the present. Either way works for the "vow to you, Feanor" line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
The Oath: Rough Cut

This is very rough. Once again I haven't differentiated the voices, and the video is missing its title and credits, plus one effect inspired by V1 that I haven't gotten round to. Also the transition on Curufin's emblem got reversed for some reason (whoops!). And Curufin has the wrong colour border... yeah, I know, but! It's something at any rate. Perhaps I can clean it up tomorrow.
!!! !!!

I still can't get over the fading in and out of colour. And the flickering on "Vault of the Heavens etc" is perfect!

What is the structure in the background? It looks very fitting, but my Tolkien lore is not enough to identify it with certainty. Formenos?
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Last edited by Galadriel55; 09-29-2020 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 09-30-2020, 03:22 PM   #290
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Well, here is the tweaked version, with a somewhat smoother transition between the quiet and rock parts, and a few minor tweaks. I may have accidentally changed the slow-down timing at the end. I think I put it back to how it was before, but I can't be sure. I hope I haven't shifted it enough to mess up the graphics timing at the very end. Sorry.

But - is this a smooth enough transition, or does that phrase just need redoing in a style independent of both themes?
And - any other tweaks that I missed?
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Old 10-01-2020, 02:12 AM   #291
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A puppet show! :-D
The Muppets' Noldolante! Starring Michael Caine as an increasingly exasperated Finrod.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I still can't get over the fading in and out of colour. And the flickering on "Vault of the Heavens etc" is perfect!

What is the structure in the background? It looks very fitting, but my Tolkien lore is not enough to identify it with certainty. Formenos?
Well, it's meant to be the Mindon in Tirion (since that's where the Oath was sworn). It, uh... wasn't intended to look like a tormented evil monolith. The sketch looks quite light and airy, I promise!

And now, following a last-minute incorporation of the new instrumental:

The Oath of some Very Angsty Kids

I'm actually kind of regretting trying to vary my voice here - I think it distracted me from actually singing. So if you can pass me a recording or five of the chorus section (yes, I did five copies, because I Am A Geek), I might rerecord the song in a more natural voice. We shall see.

I really enjoyed this one. ^_^

hS
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Old 10-01-2020, 06:57 AM   #292
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Well, it's meant to be the Mindon in Tirion (since that's where the Oath was sworn). It, uh... wasn't intended to look like a tormented evil monolith. The sketch looks quite light and airy, I promise!
Oooohh! That makes sense!

I thought about Tirion, but discarded it as a possibility just cause I don't normally imagine it in Feanorian colours. The tower does look very elegant, so I thought it can't really be the fortress-like Formenos, or Himring or any other ME Feanorian structures. But I was fixated on the colours. And it does look a bit scary. Though, I suppose, being robbed of other forms of lighting except for angry torches, Mindon would unintentionally acquire the red and black, and the scariness too. Which is again even more fitting than I realized initially when I thought it was just a Feanor-themed tower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
And now, following a last-minute incorporation of the new instrumental:

The Oath of some Very Angsty Kids
Woohoo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I'm actually kind of regretting trying to vary my voice here - I think it distracted me from actually singing. So if you can pass me a recording or five of the chorus section (yes, I did five copies, because I Am A Geek), I might rerecord the song in a more natural voice. We shall see.
Absolutely! Will do, erm, for sure before the weekend is out, and hopefully earlier. I will need to catch a good voice day, is all. Maybe we can keep some of your recordings in whichever voice too, so that there is a deeper voice as well. Whatever you think sounds better. I'll send you 5 anyways to choose from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I really enjoyed this one. ^_^
I did too, once it started going the right way. ^.^ Thanks again for the help and feedback. You don't realize how much it helped to have it.
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Old 10-01-2020, 07:28 AM   #293
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And another video:

Galadriel's Lament: Remastered Edition

Complete to the present, and I've extended a couple of the opening slides to reserve the spaces for the other backdrops (I anticipate at least two: the outside of Tol Sirion, and a Valinorean interior).

I also have Sauron drawn, and I think I did most of the animations for the Duel, so might be able to finalise that one tonight as well. Then I'll need to draw... either Beren and the Faithful, or Amarie, depending.

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Oooohh! That makes sense!

I thought about Tirion, but discarded it as a possibility just cause I don't normally imagine it in Feanorian colours. The tower does look very elegant, so I thought it can't really be the fortress-like Formenos, or Himring or any other ME Feanorian structures. But I was fixated on the colours. And it does look a bit scary. Though, I suppose, being robbed of other forms of lighting except for angry torches, Mindon would unintentionally acquire the red and black, and the scariness too. Which is again even more fitting than I realized initially when I thought it was just a Feanor-themed tower.
Yeah, I figure it's a white tower under a Shadow, lit only by burning torches (including some inside). But it also works as a generic Hey, These Guys Aren't Nice backdrop.

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Absolutely! Will do, erm, for sure before the weekend is out, and hopefully earlier. I will need to catch a good voice day, is all. Maybe we can keep some of your recordings in whichever voice too, so that there is a deeper voice as well. Whatever you think sounds better. I'll send you 5 anyways to choose from.
I probably will (so you can stop at three if you want); I've deliberately kept them separate so I can choose which to remove.

hS
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Old 10-01-2020, 10:52 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
And another video:

Galadriel's Lament: Remastered Edition

Complete to the present, and I've extended a couple of the opening slides to reserve the spaces for the other backdrops (I anticipate at least two: the outside of Tol Sirion, and a Valinorean interior).
Cool! I've updated the video link. I'll watch it in full when I get home.

Is the Valinorean interior for Heart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I also have Sauron drawn, and I think I did most of the animations for the Duel, so might be able to finalise that one tonight as well. Then I'll need to draw... either Beren and the Faithful, or Amarie, depending.
Yeah, speaking of Beren and the Faithful... the singers are both still up to doing it, but no clear timeline on when, it keeps being pushed back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Yeah, I figure it's a white tower under a Shadow, lit only by burning torches (including some inside). But it also works as a generic Hey, These Guys Aren't Nice backdrop.
Also, I sense a colour-scheme based revolt cross-over story.
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Old 10-01-2020, 01:59 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Is the Valinorean interior for Heart?
That's the plan. It may also appear in the Ballad to Amarie, since I designed it as a set of arches similar to the Nargothrond ones.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Yeah, speaking of Beren and the Faithful... the singers are both still up to doing it, but no clear timeline on when, it keeps being pushed back.
We'll get there, fear not. Plenty of time.

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Also, I sense a colour-scheme based revolt cross-over story.
[FEANOR:]
It is time for you all to decide who you serve
Will you stay in this cage, or will you summon the nerve
To come follow your king to the lands oversea?
Hunt the Enemy down, reclaim my jewels three?

The colours of my shield
Are yours now - follow me!

[MAEDHROS:]
Red!
The blood the Morgoth spilled!
[CARANTHIR:]
Black!
A heart consumed with hate!
[AMROD:]
Red!
The cup of strength we've filled!
[CURUFIN:]
Black!
The shadow of our fate!

[FINARFIN:]
If we stay here toNight, then the Valar will come
Clear the skies, clear the air, restore light to the boughs of the Trees!
If we follow the Foe, then the Foe will have won
Will have dragged us to doom, will have broken our peace

Aman is still our home
So listen to my pleas!

[FINROD:]
Red!
The vicious fire of rage!
[AREDHEL:]
Black!
The thought of staying chained!
[TURGON:]
Red!
This cursed and bloodstained age!
[GALADRIEL:]
Black!
The ancient night reclaimed!

[FINGOLFIN:]
Finarfin, you're no longer a child
You're grown too old for make-believe
The Valar can't avert this fate.
I promised once, and this I vow
I stand beside my brother now
Let Eldar march to iron gate!

[AMRAS:]
Red!
The blood the Morgoth spilled!
[CELEGORM:]
Black!
A heart consumed with hate!
[MAGLOR:]
Red!
The cup of strength we've filled!
[THE SEVEN:]
Black!
The shadow of our fate!


... was that about what you were thinking?

Coming back onto topic... yes, I've got another video completed!

The Duel of Song

(I'm tweaking the titles a little as I go; I think 'The Duel of Song' is better than the bland 'of Finrod and Sauron', dunno 'bout you.)

I also have Amarie drawn, but haven't started sorting Wind in the new video style. We'll see how long that takes.

hS
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Old 10-01-2020, 04:10 PM   #296
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... was that about what you were thinking?
...It's better than an opera!

And it's totally going into the appendices. ^.^

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Originally Posted by Hui
Coming back onto topic... yes, I've got another video completed!

The Duel of Song

(I'm tweaking the titles a little as I go; I think 'The Duel of Song' is better than the bland 'of Finrod and Sauron', dunno 'bout you.)
Sauron is magnificent!!!

Did you change the background picture for Valinor? It looks different somehow. Or is it just that there is more of it visible now?

I've updated both video links now, and changed the title to Duel of Song. I agree that it is more poetic. My nicknames for titles tend to be in the Not Poetic direction - like Bloodzoning or Tonguelashing. I don't think we'll use those. But in all fairness, I agree that some songs can use more poetic names rather than the somewhat austere and literal titles they are given in the Russian libretto.

In somewhat related news, I was thinking about what to tackle next, and decided that certain songs have prerequisites.
  • Hate - I would prefer to do both Bloodzoning and Aria first, so it flows better
  • Aria - in turn, would be following Quarrel, and to make the transition smoother they would ideally be written chronologically too
  • Showdown - I'd rather do the gentler version in Dream first before it gets all Song of Power again
  • Epilogue - I don't want to touch that one until all the themes it uses are actually in play. I want the songs to influence Epilogue, not the other way around.

I've been sketching a couple songs, but don't have any completed sketches, so nothing I'm set on. If we still want to do a Luthien song, I would prefer to take a small break from the Bros, and then come back to them with renewed energy and angst. That leaves Meeting and Dream. I have ideas for both of them. BUT. Meeting is missing like half the chords - what it does have isn't something I can really work with. So it will be a nightmare to sketch, and will consequently take longer (also I think it's a longer piece just by length). Dream, at first glance, looks easier, and I would be finished quicker. So the only determining factor here is the timeline we are aiming for. If you are expecting more free time, I would probably go with something quicker on my end to match that (either Dream or any number of other songs, if Luthien is not to be involved - basically anything except for the "prerequisite songs"). My preference would be either the Luthien songs or any of the Nargothrond-set songs.
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Old 10-01-2020, 04:55 PM   #297
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The Meeting: it's missing chords? I know nothing, so I just glanced at it and went 'yep, chords on every line' and stopped there. There's also that comment at the end (Проигрыш - мелодия Лютиен из ее ęПоединкаĽ), which I'm not even sure which track it goes to!

Sauron: do you think the raised arm/wing works? I did a lot of tweaking to that, and I'm still not positive I shouldn't just remove it.

Valinor: No changes to the picture, but yeah, you can see a lot more, and the transition is different now.

Next song: totally up to you! I'm jumping around in who I'm drawing, and need to have most of them done to fix up the songs we've done already. The only video I expect to be complicated is Truth, though now doubt I'll come up with some brilliant stroke of stupid for one of the others.

hS
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Old 10-01-2020, 05:53 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
The Meeting: it's missing chords? I know nothing, so I just glanced at it and went 'yep, chords on every line' and stopped there. There's also that comment at the end (Проигрыш - мелодия Лютиен из ее ęПоединкаĽ), which I'm not even sure which track it goes to!
It has a good part of the chords written in the number code thing. I assume that the numbers stand for the finger position on guitar strings, with each number meaning one step=half-tone up on the string. But if it's a standard E-A-D-G-B-E guitar, 90% of these chords don't make any sense to me. They look like gibberish, and they don't sound right. In the past I have largely ignored them and written whatever made sense / sounded right instead, but in previous songs these chords were a rare occurrence, not the norm. So far I've only tried to map Beren's part of Meeting, and I am still missing a good chunk of the chords and melody. I'll have to listen to the different versions and try to reconcile them with the notes that come up with the number chords, see if I can make headway with that approach.

Unless you have another idea for how to interpret the numbers? If you know how to decode them, that will speed things up significantly.

The last line is actually easier to deal with. It says "musical refrain - Luthien's melody from her Duel", which is what they do in V2 anyways at the end of Meeting. I haven't actually looked at the chords for that part, but I don't expect that to be a stump.

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Originally Posted by Hui
Sauron: do you think the raised arm/wing works? I did a lot of tweaking to that, and I'm still not positive I shouldn't just remove it.
I think the "upswing" of the cloak definitely works. If you are on the fence about it, I would argue against removing it completely, because it's pretty cool. If you feel that it needs changing, maybe only at the tip, where it bends towards Sauron rather than swishing away as a swung cloak would. I would definitely argue against redoing all of Sauron: his face and head are right on - intense, arrogant, slightly amused/pleased, contemptuous. Beauty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Next song: totally up to you! I'm jumping around in who I'm drawing, and need to have most of them done to fix up the songs we've done already. The only video I expect to be complicated is Truth, though now doubt I'll come up with some brilliant stroke of stupid for one of the others.
Lol. I'll spin the lottery wheel tomorrow then and let you know where it lands. Not today because I won't actually be able to start it until tomorrow anyways.
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Old 10-02-2020, 02:51 PM   #299
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Okay... just sent you several options for Swear to this Oath. Not sure which ones are actually necessary though. Do whatever you want with them.

I think I will try to keep chipping away at Meeting. Luthien should come out into the light, and I'll have to do it sooner or later anyways. If I get too frustrated though I might just escape to Nargothrond for a bit before coming back to these darkened woods.
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Old 10-02-2020, 03:11 PM   #300
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Unless you have another idea for how to interpret the numbers? If you know how to decode them, that will speed things up significantly.
One!
And another One makes
Two!
And another One makes
Three (that's me!)
Five-four-three-two-one
Numberjacks!


Er, anyway...

The very first chord of the Meeting is given as Am(V-555775) . Searching around produces this page, which provides the same description (Am (V) - 555775), and also includes a picture of what "Am (V)" looks like:



Now, I didn't even know fifth chords existed until now (only sevenths), but luckily they also give some saner chords. Like D! D is cool. They give D as 232000.

Wikipedia has an article on this, which also provides D... as 000232.

...

Do they make more sense if you read them backwards?

Yep! Here's Am as 577555 from an English-language source. Apparently Russians just write their chords backwards from the English-speaking world.

Poking around the internet a bit, this means Beren's lines:

I had to flee the shadow that fell
The last out


Would be chorded Gdim - Gdim7 -//- Dsus - Dm.

I don't know what suspended or diminished chords are either, but G,G / D,D looks pretty sensible to me. ^_^

For further corroboration: that odd '7 10 9977' (or 7799 10 7 in English) is apparently Gsus, of which a random website says:

There's a bunch o' ways [you can play it]. you could do 320013 or 355533, just to name a few... I guess you could also do 7799107, but that's kinda stretchin' it...

So there it is. A real chord, but played weirdly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G55
I think the "upswing" of the cloak definitely works. If you are on the fence about it, I would argue against removing it completely, because it's pretty cool. If you feel that it needs changing, maybe only at the tip, where it bends towards Sauron rather than swishing away as a swung cloak would.
Oh, that's how you're seeing it? Hmm. I can work with that version... maybe. We'll see.

Art updates: I have Beren and Amarie drawn, and Captivity all ready to go when I get round to drawing the Faithful. I've also re-recorded my parts for it, so it'll actually sound good and all. ^_^ I tried adding Finrod to the choir, but it didn't work too well, so I've left him out for now.

Next up, my nemesis: wind-blown leaves.

hS
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Old 10-02-2020, 03:49 PM   #301
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Now, I didn't even know fifth chords existed until now (only sevenths), but luckily they also give some saner chords. Like D! D is cool. They give D as 232000.

Wikipedia has an article on this, which also provides D... as 000232.

...

Do they make more sense if you read them backwards?

Yep! Here's Am as 577555 from an English-language source. Apparently Russians just write their chords backwards from the English-speaking world.
You know, you might be onto something there. Because D can very much be played X00232. Whereas 232000 to me reads as F#-C-E-G-B-E, where literally the only note that belongs in D major is F#, maybe C if you make it into D7. And looking at these notes make me think of C major with an F# and a B natural slammed on top, or alternatively an E minor with an extra F# and a C, both of which make it sound like someone headdesked the piano (and what I really felt like doing after going through the cipher and getting similar gibberish). Let me try doing this backwards then:

Forest is worn line:
Am5 is fine
558775 = A-E-Eb/D#-A-E-A (which is much better than previous gibberish but E and Eb are still a weird combo)

I had to flee line:
323200 = G-Db-Bb-E-A-E (which actually makes Gdim7 with an A added on top)
656500 = Bb-E-Db-G-A-E (same thing: these are all notes of Gdim7 except for the A)


But this is a lot better than what I had previously, e.g. for the first "flee" chord: G-B-F-A-B-E - or, in other words, EFGAB, 5 notes in succession, which is a chord you might hear when someone headdesks the keyboard in frustration.

I think you fixed it. <3

(I will have to look up suspended chords, but diminisheds are beautiful things for resolutions into a minor key. I stuck them in several places previously because they made sense and sounded nice. That stuff is good stuff. I trust that stuff.)


ETA: what I now actually find amusing is that occasionally - very rarely, but just often enough to give me hope that I might be on the right track after all - there would be a chord that might have actually made sense as not quite harmonious but plausible thing, something akin to a X5 or X4 or something. Monkeys with typewriters do spell out "oksfordte dictoinnearie" without having to sit there an infinite amount of time, I suppose.

ETA #2: these flipped chords are a lot better to work with. So far I made it as far as "forthcoming death", with dissonance - but a more controlled sort of dissonance. I might not have to escape to Nargothrond after all, unless I jinx it.

ETA#3: Lol. Searched some of these chord-codes on google.ru to see if I can find confirmation of which notes are meant to be dissonant. First thing that comes up is a site with the chords for "Meeting". :/
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Old 10-05-2020, 08:04 PM   #302
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And here is the sketch all the way to the end, though with several places I know are not right, but I'll fix them when I get to them. Or cheat my way out of actually figuring them out. But I am now officially ready to begin the real thing. One of the iffy places is Beren's opening lines though. We'll see.

Your backwards chords idea was a lifesaver. I think I tried that a couple times before, back in Duel or something, but I wasn't impressed and gave up on the idea. I didn't think to try it again. This would have been infinitely longer and more difficult without the coded chords. I also found this thing, which allows me to see the notes indicated by the numbers without me having to count manually for each string. That sped things up a bit too.
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Old 10-06-2020, 01:45 AM   #303
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And here is the sketch all the way to the end, though with several places I know are not right, but I'll fix them when I get to them. Or cheat my way out of actually figuring them out. But I am now officially ready to begin the real thing. One of the iffy places is Beren's opening lines though. We'll see.
Hooray! And right back at you, the ten-minute, hS-sings-both-parts cut, complete with the bits where I utterly missed my cue. It at least shows you how well it works (which is well!).

Now I need to figure out how to draw Luthien... -_- The things I get myself in for.

hS
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Old 10-06-2020, 07:26 AM   #304
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Now I need to figure out how to draw Luthien... -_- The things I get myself in for.
There's no rush. This one will take a while, as there are pretty much no repeating parts that I can take shortcuts with.

But - I am hoping that with this weekend (or maybe early the following week) we'll get the Captivity recordings... That's the trouble with having multiple people involved, I suppose - it's difficult to coordinate.
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Old 10-06-2020, 07:53 AM   #305
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There's no rush. This one will take a while, as there are pretty much no repeating parts that I can take shortcuts with.

But - I am hoping that with this weekend (or maybe early the following week) we'll get the Captivity recordings... That's the trouble with having multiple people involved, I suppose - it's difficult to coordinate.
You're absolutely right: there's no rush. I coloured Edrahil and the Faithful this morning, there's certainly no need to press ahead with



-_-

[Edit: Picture changed for snazzier version.]

Luthien's costume is V2 Galadriel's, with a slightly different pattern. Actually Luthien is probably Tolkien's best-described character (go figure), and I've taken inspiration from that. The Lay of Leithian tells us:

Her robe was blue as summer skies,
but grey as evening were her eyes;
['twas sewn with golden lilies fair >] her mantle sewn with lilies fair,
but dark as shadow was her hair.


We later hear of her mantle blue with jewels bright, and excitingly, in the description of Daeron playing for Luthien, we have the statement there jewel gleamed and silver wan / and red gold on white finger shone, which (since Daeron was busy playing a flute) may imply that she habitually wore rose-gold rings. Given that she wound up wearing the Nauglamir around the house, I think our Tinuviel was secretly addicted to bling. ^_^

(I say 'excitingly' because this would mean Tolkien and Edith's inserts both have iconic rings. Given that Tolkien drew symbolic wedding rings on his device for Cheltenham ['Celbaros'] where they got engaged, that's all kinds of cute.)

hS

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Old 10-06-2020, 03:53 PM   #306
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Oooh, pretty! I like how Luthien's hair swoops around. Was it intentionally cloak-like?
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Old 10-06-2020, 04:20 PM   #307
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Oooh, pretty! I like how Luthien's hair swoops around. Was it intentionally cloak-like?
Oh, 100%. The plan is to have three Luthien pics: this one, one with her hair cut short and the swoosh converted into a cloak (which she's holding shut with that raised hand), and one with the Nauglamir for use in the epilogue or credits.

She shares this honour with Finrod, who has that removable crown; the rest of them may wind up with a special epilogue portrait, but only these two get three.

hS
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Old 10-06-2020, 04:37 PM   #308
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She shares this honour with Finrod, who has that removable crown; the rest of them may wind up with a special epilogue portrait, but only these two get three.
Hey, that's nice!

I was also thinking - you know, like a year from now, when we get through the actual musical - I might do a bit of a medley of each character's melodies as a sort of "bow" at the end. So the portraits might each also get a couple seconds center stage at the end without competition.
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Old 10-07-2020, 02:26 AM   #309
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I was also thinking - you know, like a year from now, when we get through the actual musical - I might do a bit of a medley of each character's melodies as a sort of "bow" at the end. So the portraits might each also get a couple seconds center stage at the end without competition.
Ooh, credits music! That would be much nicer than just slapping it all on one black page over silence.

... I'm now heading down a possible mental side-alley and wondering whether I should use Galadriel's songs to tell the before and after. The intro to the Lament, where I've currently got previews of the Zong backgrounds, could instead be a series of pictures telling the backstory:

-Awakening of the Elves
-Making of the Silmarils
-Death of the Trees
-Oath of Feanor
-Building of Nargothrond
-Finrod meeting the Edain
-The Bragollach
-The death of Barahir / Beren in Dorthonion

Then the Epilogue/Ballad... well, if I'm reusing the Lament Overview for Truth, I don't have any plans for the Epilogue, so I could do a Where Are They Now.

-Finrod's grave (In the hour when slumber calls)
-Thingol facing down the dwarves (Tell the truth, O Heart, tell me why)
-Melian's farewell (Why did my fair brother go)
-Beren and Luthien in Ossiriand (Did he reach a final accord)
-Cel'n'Cur in the Second Kinslaying (An ancient Oath that brings ruin to those it holds fast.)
-Sauron with a Ring (But stronger is time.)
-Finrod with Amarie and Finarfin (Ours - the havens grey with sky-ship sails!)

And then finish the song from 'sea-spray' onward as a rendition of the quote from the end of RotK:

Quote:
And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed on into the West, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise.
The main issue? I'd need to draw 14! pictures, not just as backgrounds but with actual figures and staging and stuff. Not impossible! But still a fair bit of work.

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Old 10-07-2020, 06:46 AM   #310
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That sounds very impressive. I would not know how to even approach half of these pictures. So I think I will limit myself to general comments about themes and stuff, and let you work out how/if to turn that into art.

For G's Ballad - the quick history of the world would be cool, but sounds like a lot of complicated pictures, so I will leave that in your judgement. Thematically, the one thing I might suggest is ending on a "future note". Galadriel begins by saying that Finrod is dead. Would that merit a "now we are in the future" transition? Or do you think Ballad could be in the near enough future that it's still the same chunk of time as the Zong (perhaps taking place right afterwards)?

For the Epilogue, the sailing ship would be so wonderful! And it is good to have ll the characters say their "goodbye". The one image I might argue about is Sauron woth the Ring. I feel like it takes away from time as the unbeatable enemy - I think the Zong's point is that the Elves were doomed to fade in Middle-earth regardless of what they did. I would suggest the 3 Elven rings instead, referencing Galadriel herself and Celebrimbor, the ones carrying the ancient Noldor pride and seeing not trials vast, believing they can raise a power or a kingdom in spite of all, exist despite the fading... and then Galadriel accepting her fate, and humbling her pride, and ceasing trying to recreate what once was again in new kingdoms and new lands. On the flip side though, Sauron needs a goodbye too. Maybe the One vs the Three, to represent both the Elven ambitions, and Sauron's ambition of mastery that lead to his ultimate downfall? Just thoughts - I will leave that up to you.
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Old 10-07-2020, 06:55 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
That sounds very impressive. I would not know how to even approach half of these pictures. So I think I will limit myself to general comments about themes and stuff, and let you work out how/if to turn that into art.
I can sort of picture all of them; whether that will translate into decent drawings is always a coinflip though.

Quote:
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For G's Ballad - the quick history of the world would be cool, but sounds like a lot of complicated pictures, so I will leave that in your judgement. Thematically, the one thing I might suggest is ending on a "future note". Galadriel begins by saying that Finrod is dead. Would that merit a "now we are in the future" transition? Or do you think Ballad could be in the near enough future that it's still the same chunk of time as the Zong (perhaps taking place right afterwards)?
I do sort of see it as 'right afterwards' - it has the feel of Galadriel's immediate reaction (especially the 'unavailing grief' verse). One thing I could do is put the History before the logo and title, so that the last element in the retrospective is "Finrod-Zong".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
For the Epilogue, the sailing ship would be so wonderful! And it is good to have ll the characters say their "goodbye". The one image I might argue about is Sauron woth the Ring. I feel like it takes away from time as the unbeatable enemy - I think the Zong's point is that the Elves were doomed to fade in Middle-earth regardless of what they did. I would suggest the 3 Elven rings instead, referencing Galadriel herself and Celebrimbor, the ones carrying the ancient Noldor pride and seeing not trials vast, believing they can raise a power or a kingdom in spite of all, exist despite the fading... and then Galadriel accepting her fate, and humbling her pride, and ceasing trying to recreate what once was again in new kingdoms and new lands. On the flip side though, Sauron needs a goodbye too. Maybe the One vs the Three, to represent both the Elven ambitions, and Sauron's ambition of mastery that lead to his ultimate downfall? Just thoughts - I will leave that up to you.
How about Sauron lurking around behind Celebrimbor in his forge? It'd be fun to drawn an "Annatar" who still evokes Bat-Sauron (perhaps a 'lacier' version of the crown?), and would draw in all those themes. If 'Brim wears some Feanorian colours, it would even serve as an endcap to their story. I could even sneak Disgruntled Galadriel in there, since hey, we're mangling the canon already, and maybe she was just visiting. ^_^

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Old 10-07-2020, 07:43 AM   #312
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I can sort of picture all of them; whether that will translate into decent drawings is always a coinflip though.
I will humbly stick to the music. The idea sounds grand though!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I do sort of see it as 'right afterwards' - it has the feel of Galadriel's immediate reaction (especially the 'unavailing grief' verse). One thing I could do is put the History before the logo and title, so that the last element in the retrospective is "Finrod-Zong".
*applause*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
How about Sauron lurking around behind Celebrimbor in his forge? It'd be fun to drawn an "Annatar" who still evokes Bat-Sauron (perhaps a 'lacier' version of the crown?), and would draw in all those themes. If 'Brim wears some Feanorian colours, it would even serve as an endcap to their story. I could even sneak Disgruntled Galadriel in there, since hey, we're mangling the canon already, and maybe she was just visiting. ^_^
I mean, Galadriel is already tied in because she wears Nenya. But that does tie in all the threads neatly. ^.^
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Old 10-08-2020, 04:20 AM   #313
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So remember that thing I said I would never do?

Wind: Remastered

I tried four or five different ways of handling the leaves, but eventually had to admit defeat and restrict each to a single shape. They still get to tumble though, and they move so fast it's not really noticable.

I've also added slight stellation effects to the two constellations which show up, so at least Orion's Belt stands out now.

That makes four fully remastered songs, with Captivity waiting in the wings to be fifth. I still need to redraw Thingol and Melian, and will have to sort out the backdrops for the Meeting at some point, but once those are done we'll have seven songs finished - out of 22. That's very nearly a third!

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Old 10-08-2020, 06:21 AM   #314
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Yay! Menelmacar and Wilwarin!

I cannot see any fault with the leaves. So whatever you're talking about - they turned out perfect. It is a super cool effect.

I like Amarie 2.0, she fits very well with Celebestel's beautiful voice.

7 songs! Wait - there is also Oath which is nearly ready. If we count the unfinished ones, surely Oath counts too. Make that 8. ^.^
Edit - wait, no, Oath is one of the four you counted, right? I am losing track.

Speaking of Oath, what is the final say on Swear?
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Old 10-08-2020, 07:06 AM   #315
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wait, no, Oath is one of the four you counted, right? I am losing track.
We have:

01 - Galadriel's Lament
02 - Oath of Feanor (missing the chorus)
03 - First Dance (in the works)
04 - Menegroth Duet (not yet remastered)
14 - The Duel of Song
17 - Captivity (not remastered; awaiting final voices)
19 - Wind

Speaking of Oath, what is the final say on Swear?[/QUOTE]

Uh... that I forgot you sent the files to me. I might be able to slot them in tomorrow.

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Old 10-08-2020, 07:27 AM   #316
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Making it a round 7 will be motivation to get going on Meeting. I have been very distracted lately, and basically only have 4 bars of intro. I made one brief foray into Beren's lines, but it sounded like church organ musoc, so I scrapped it.
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Old 10-08-2020, 07:33 AM   #317
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Making it a round 7 will be motivation to get going on Meeting. I have been very distracted lately, and basically only have 4 bars of intro. I made one brief foray into Beren's lines, but it sounded like church organ musoc, so I scrapped it.
And Meeting/First Dance (maybe Meeting in Neldoreth? I'm just trying to find something to use as a better title) is a great one to do, because it'll give us a run of four from the start of the musical. I can string them all together and see how it looks!

I've also conceded defeat on another point: the recordings do incline more towards putting Melian's quartet as the beginning of the Aria rather than the end of the Quarrel, so I've moved them.

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Old 10-08-2020, 07:42 AM   #318
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What? Not "The Title That Describes In Miniscule Detail Exactly What Happens In The Song And Names All The Characters Involved"?

I think for Aria that I will just do it in sequence right after Quarrel. They could be separated any way we choose - for administrative purposes, and ease of writing, etc - but I'll also write them so that they can blend in seamlessly as a single piece. And all the problems with the quartet will be solved.
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Old 10-08-2020, 08:15 AM   #319
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What? Not "The Title That Describes In Miniscule Detail Exactly What Happens In The Song And Names All The Characters Involved"?
Look, I'm reading "Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor" right now, don't push it.

... I've found some more Zong videos. Some from a 2012 performance:

Oath
Showdown, played over clips from the entire performance

And some with audio from ca. 2011:

Oath
Hatred
Truth
?Medley?

And this, from 2014, by... good grief, V1 Finrod changed a bit:

Truth, by Роман Сусалев

Aaaand a 2008 rehearsal clip:

Renunciation

And a whole new 2019 show-- look, I'm going to have to put them on the doc, this is getting silly. Essentially this search is just a list of Zonging. I think 2017's Santa Concert may be the winner.

And I still haven't seen hide nor hair of the purported Daeron songs.

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Old 10-08-2020, 10:24 AM   #320
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... I've found some more Zong videos. Some from a 2012 performance:
Ooh, neat! Something to watch next week. I think Roman Susalyov might be my favourite Finrod overall, so looking forward to more of his performances.

Took a brief look at the search - I see quite a few repeats from stuff you've found previously, but also a few new ones. There's a Prison Duet, and I think the only version I've seen of that was the V2 one. That would be nice to compare!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
And I still haven't seen hide nor hair of the purported Daeron songs.
Well, there was a hair, I guess... He appears in that abbreviated play that has Aria right after the Domestic (because "duet" is too non-specific ^.^), where they have the two Elvish dancers in turquoise costumes. I don't think he speaks though.

Also, pretty sure that some photos I saw on the Temple's VK gallery were tagged as Daeron and Edrahil. But yeah, no songs to accompany these folks, though they should each have lines in the musical at this point.
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