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Old 08-13-2002, 06:50 PM   #1
Thranduil
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Silmaril The other wizards......

Who were the other 2 wizards in LOTR? It says there were 5, but only 3 have been mentioned (Radagast, Gandalf, and Saurumon).

If you know if Tolkien wrote anything about the others (like whow they are, what they're colors are, and what they do), I'd be most appreciative.
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Old 08-13-2002, 08:35 PM   #2
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Ithryn Luin ("The Blue Wizards"), Alatar and Pallando.

They accompanied Saruman into the east. Saruman returned after 1000 years, but they remained. We don't know what happened to them after that.

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What success they had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were the founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.
from Letter No. 211
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Old 08-13-2002, 08:46 PM   #3
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Where did you hear/read this? Could you please cite the source?

I mean, is this from Tolkein himself or some kind of fan-fiction?
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Old 08-13-2002, 08:51 PM   #4
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Tolkien himself.

I don't do fan-fiction, and I wouldn't simply quote something as an answer to a serious question if I did.

Unfinished Tales is the most complete compilation of Tolkien's comments on the five Istari. You should read it yourself. You'll find out which Valar each Maiar served, how they were selected, the nature of each, name origins, etc. There's a whole chapter called "The Istari."

I shouldn't and shan't spoil it for you.

[ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]
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Old 08-13-2002, 08:55 PM   #5
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Cool! Thank you very much!

But despite what you said, I'm really really really hoping that they weren't just "blue" wizards, and that they didn't turn evil.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 08-13-2002, 09:53 PM   #6
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You're welcome.

I've always been a wizard fan and rather curious about these two also. Would've been nice to know their story, eh?
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Old 08-13-2002, 10:11 PM   #7
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it also says that they may have gone into the east because it was their 'destiny'; because their innate characteristics were like to Orome who would at whiles in the begining of days go all over middle earth hunting melkors beasts.
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Old 08-14-2002, 09:35 AM   #8
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In conjunction with this topic, were there any "lesser" wizards in middle-earth. Could Gandalf or any other members of the White Council taught what they knew?

And second, when they talk about the 9 rings given to men, they say that they (the ones with the rings) became great warriors, kings, sorcerrers, etc. Would there be any way to be a wizard and NOT be corrupted by evil?

Thanks again all of you
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Old 08-14-2002, 01:41 PM   #9
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Well, Gandalf was a wizard, and he was not corrupted. Remember, there is a difference between wizards (istari) and the men who had the 9 rings. Wizards are an entirely different race (Maiar). The Nazgul were mortal men (origionaly at least). There were only 5 wizards, and they could not teach what they knew (except share knowlege of events etc.) since their power came from being Maiar.
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Old 08-14-2002, 05:16 PM   #10
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The wizards are not men...they are Maiar who were sent to Middle-earth in 1000 of the Third Age, long after the twenty rings were forged and handed out.

Of those rings, only one was ever held by a wizard. Gandalf had Narya, the Elven Ring of Fire. Cirdan gave it to him upon his arrival in Middle-earth. Sauron had no power over the three Elven rings.

It was not a ring, but Sauron himself that ensnared Saruman.

They never taught any of their 'magic' to elves or mortals. They just aided those in Middle-earth with their own wisdom and power.

Though those with rings had enhanced stature, none were ever made into wizards. 'Wizard' was not just a title for someone who did magic, but a title used only for those five included in the race. So no, there were no lesser wizards.

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]
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Old 08-14-2002, 09:34 PM   #11
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This is all very interesting. I think that I'll hurry up and finish The Silmarillion in the next few days and go buy Unfinished Tales....I have a friends who works at the book store and I get discounts...hehehe [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
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Old 08-15-2002, 02:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
There were only 5 wizards,...
Actually, we don't know that. It says in the Unfinished Tales something to the effect that the 5 main ones were sent to northern Middle Earth, and anything south of Harad was simply unknown. Like I said, something to this effect. I don't have my copy her at work but when I get home I'll find the quote.
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Old 08-15-2002, 03:14 PM   #13
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Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dunedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs was five. The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order. 1 Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and one in earthen brown; and the last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.
True enough about not knowing the number. There are only five that we know about, but these five are also the only we are to be concerned with (maybe not even five...just the three that come into the tale), because the term, regardless of their number, is only used to refer to these five emissaries that came to Middle-earth as these languages would not be spoken elsewhere in the world. It also seems rather odd that Tolkien would state that he was unsure of the number, but the account of the five being chosen seems to be complete. Any that, if they actually existed, appeared in other regions of the world are unimportant because there was not as much hope left in those other regions, and their accounts are never written. I'm not sure I worded that to reflect my exact thoughts, but nonetheless, those looking on might also take into account this quote.

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The translation (through suitable in its relation to "wise" and other ancient words of knowing, similar to that of istar in Quenya) is not perhaps happy, since Heren Istarion or "Order of Wizards" was quite distinct from "wizards" and "magicians" of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.
[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]
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Old 08-15-2002, 03:28 PM   #14
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1420!

Thank you Legalos. I consider this discussion the most informative one I have heard in years!

I read the Unfinished Tales, but I shall need to read it again, evidently! I am humbled by your knowledge.
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Old 08-15-2002, 06:36 PM   #15
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See this thread for a v. similar discussion (and my musings on the matter)
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Old 08-18-2002, 10:25 PM   #16
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In the special features of the dvd, Ian McKellen calls the Wizards "Maiar" but I was under the impression they were Istari, which are different...? He also says they are immortal, which would make sense for Gandalf as he survived the balrog, but Saruman's fate seemed ended in ROTK. Are they immortal Maiar?
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Old 08-18-2002, 11:39 PM   #17
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ok, it's getting late at night, and I'm too tired to go look for my books, so I'm going to give a bit of an answer out of my head. you can correct me if I mess up [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I am confused about the Istari/Maiar thing myself, although at the moment I would speculate that "Istari" is just the name of the Maiar that came to Middle-earth as the wizards (i.e. Gandalf, Saruman).
as for Saruman's fate and Gandalf "surviving" the balrog, I believe that I read in one of my books that after one of the Istari's mortal bodies was destroyed, they went back to wherever they came from (I don't remember from whence they came). it also said that Gandalf was sent back after his battle with the balrog; I suppose that Saruman wasn't sent back after his body was killed.
that's all I can speculate. my eyes are starting to blur over. it's time to turn off this stupid machine and go to bed...
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Old 08-19-2002, 08:51 AM   #18
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'Istari' is the name for the 5 Maiar sent to Middle-earth to aid the peoples there in their fight against Sauron. All Maiar are immortal. Their physical being in Arda can be wounded/killed, but they live on, like when Saruman dies and his spirit wanders but does not have the strength to take physical shape anymore; when Gandalf's spirit is sent back to Middle-earth and given shape; when Sauron falls at the end of the Second Age and must wait until the end of the Third Age when his strength is regained...
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Old 08-19-2002, 09:15 AM   #19
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Saruman's spirit looked to the west [ i.e. valinor] when he was killed by wormtounge but a wind blew it away [ to the east] the implication being that he was not [ at that time at least]allowed to return.

Istari means I think wizard or the wise, and was a specific name for the 5 maia who came to M-E in the 3rd age.

Could Gandalf teach others to become wizards or wizardish?

in the normal sense - no.

Did he teach others 'lore' or wisdom - yes, Faramir comments on this in the 'windows on the west' chapter. I also do not doubt that Gandalf taught all manner of things to Aragorn who he hoped/knew [?] was destined to 'replace ' him if you will in the overseership of the NW of M-E.

[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 08-19-2002, 11:01 AM   #20
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Thank you all for your input/answers. Real quick, I found something interesting while I was rereading the Two Towers.

Now the 2 blue wizards are never talked about in the book and from other threads I learned (chiefly in thanks to Legolas for all his info.) that they had gone into the east and no one knows what happened to them. Some people think that they also turned evil and started cults or what not. But maybe not...

You see, in the Two Towers, when Gandalf goes to talk to Saurumon at Orthanc (after the ents have destroyed or rather flooded Isengard), Gandalf says that Sarumon can go wherever he wants to but first he has to give up his staff and the Key of Orthanc. They "shall be pledges of your conduct, to be returned later...." Then Sarumon says in his refusal, "...have the Keys of Barad-dur itself, the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards..."

I take it to mean that the other 2 are still out there. Sarumon could just be ranting, buyt still...the other 2 blue wizards may be alive and kicking.
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Old 08-20-2002, 01:46 PM   #21
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Silmaril

Do you maybe have some links for me to find out more about the wizards of Middle-Earth. Because, I'm in an RPG and I chose the character of a female wizard or sorceress as you might say (it's a freestyle rpg, as you might like to know). Have there been any female wizards or sorcerers in Middle-Earth anyways?

I hope you can help me,

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Old 08-20-2002, 09:25 PM   #22
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ummmm melian was a female maiar who lived in doriath she wasn't a wizard or anything

there were not any female wizards or sorceresses
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Old 08-21-2002, 12:15 PM   #23
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Silmaril

thanx anyways
Love,

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Old 08-27-2002, 01:05 AM   #24
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Actually, it is possible that Gandalf and the other Chiefs of the Order of Wizards could have taught 'magic' to non-Maiar. In The Hobbit, it is stated that 'the Dwarves of Yore wove mighty spells',or words to that effect. Also, it is plausible to say that Feanor, Eol, Telchar, Celebrimbor and a host of others used magic to help them. Its subtle and nothing like D&D Wizards, thats for certain.

There has been a heated discussion on the Decipher Lord of the Rings RPG board about this issue. Professor Tolkien left enough ambiguity by stating that the Chiefs were 5 and the exact number was unknown.

Also Istari is Sindarin for Wise, if I remember right, not Sindarin for Wizard. Technically, all of the named members of The White Council: Elrond, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Galadriel, Celeborn and Cirdan could be classified as Istari.
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Old 08-27-2002, 08:07 AM   #25
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Don't have the book with me, but I'm quite sure that Istari means Wizard, not wise. Anyway, in UT it says specifically what the Istari are: Maiar that are sent from the west as messengers. to combat Sauron. Elves are not Istari.
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Old 08-27-2002, 08:09 AM   #26
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Also, Elvish magic was different than the magic practised by the people of Valinor (Ainur or something is the general classification... anyway Valar and Maiar). In my copy of the Silmarilion there is an essay from JRRT that says as much. Also, see the thread on magic.
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Old 09-25-2003, 05:13 PM   #27
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Silmaril

There were obviously 5 wizards as has already been mentioned, the other two are the Ithyrn Luin: the Blue Wizards who were Alatar and Pallando. They passed out east with Saruman and did not return.What happened to the Blue Wizards? Did Saruman kill them, maybe not because he had turned evil at that point but what happened???

The fact that interested me is that it is claimed that Gandalf alone remained true to his tack, given that Yavanna chose Radagast maybe by interesting himself in nature he was fulfilling his personal mission...sorry to wander off the original question but it interests me. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 09-25-2003, 07:50 PM   #28
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"Istari" = "The Wise; The Knowledgeable" (In Quenya)


Alatar and Pallando could have been sent to Middle-earth to fulfill Oromë's own agenda, just as Radagast may have been sent to Middle-earth to fulfill Yavanna's own agenda, whatever it may be. Oromë could have wanted the Ithryn Luin to "check on" the lands in the East, the same lands that he had discovered the Elves in.
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Old 09-26-2003, 05:07 AM   #29
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Something is kind of bugging me. Does anybody else thing that Ragfast and Tom Bombadil are one and the same???
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Old 09-26-2003, 05:31 AM   #30
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How could they be? Bombadil never left his land. And he certainly didn't seem very "brown."

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Old 09-26-2003, 05:42 AM   #31
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Exactly he was only concerned with the nature of his land, never bothering himself in any outside affairs. Now i might be a bit off but that sounds like the brown wizard to me [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 09-26-2003, 05:42 AM   #32
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I believe the Wizards had a mission shared by all of them as well as a personal mission,that is,an adaption of the common mission for that Wizard specifically. For Radagast it would have been to be in close contact with nature and maybe serve as a spokesman between animals and humanoids.
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Old 09-26-2003, 05:46 AM   #33
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And did he not talk to the tree's???
And wat about the ability to see through the ring??
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Old 09-26-2003, 06:38 AM   #34
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Something is kind of bugging me. Does anybody else thing that Ragfast and Tom Bombadil are one and the same???
As burrahobbit might put it ...

No.
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Old 09-26-2003, 07:07 AM   #35
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And did he not talk to the tree's???
So did Merry and Pippin. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Quote:
And wat about the ability to see through the ring??
Who, Tom or Radagast? Tom was not affected by the Ring, true. But Radagast would have been had he ever come into contact with it. The Istari were not immune to its power. That's why Gandalf refuses to take it.
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Old 09-26-2003, 12:18 PM   #36
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Any personal mission was beyond what Manwe sent them for. Their purpose was explicitly stated and to be carried out by all five. Gandalf was the only one to fulfill that mission.

Even Radagast, despite what people like to think...

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Radagast neglected the purpose for which he was sent
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Old 09-27-2003, 01:50 PM   #37
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Yes Legolas we all know that is explains that Gandalf is the only of the 5 to remain true to the mission but the Ithyrn Luin do not figure in any serious detail and their purpose in Middle-Earth remains unknown...yes to counter Sauron but i cant help feeling that as Yavanna begged Saruman to take Radagast that she might have had her own agenda that was based on nature as well as combating Sauron.

The personnal agenda of the Blue Wizards i believe, as was mentioned was the personnal agenda of Orome in the East of Middle Earth as he had most interest in that field.

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Old 09-27-2003, 06:45 PM   #38
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I posted two much later essays on the two other Istari a while ago, in another thread (you can read them here), which tell that the other Wizards actually helped in the war(s) against Sauron, trying to make the eastern tribes of men oppose Sauron. I'm just going to quote the end of the last essay here (their names were in this text Romestámo and Morinehtar):
Quote:
They [the two other Istari] must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East... who would both in the Second Age and the Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.
On the last essay Christoffer Tolkien notes:
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At the words in the citation from this text in Unfinished Tales (p. 394) 'Of the other two nothing is said in published work save the reference to the five wizards in the altercation between Gandalf and Saruman' my father wrote: 'A note made on their names and functions seems now lost, but except for the names their general history and effect on the history of the Third Age is clear.' Conceivably he was thinking of the sketched-out narrative of the choosing of the Istari at a council of the Valar (Unfinished Tales p. 393), in which the Two Wizards (or 'the Blue Wizards, Ithryn Luin) were named Alatar and Pallando
-HoME XII, The Peoples of Middle Earth ("Last Writings")

...which tells a quite different story from the one given in UT.

[ September 27, 2003: Message edited by: Falagar ]
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Old 09-30-2003, 04:45 PM   #39
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I always feel inclined to stick up for Radagast. Tolkien had this tendency in his later, unpublished writings to 'talk up' his favorite characters, so Gandalf and Galadriel especially got considerably built up, as we see in things like 'Unfinished Tales'. But in LOTR itself there is not a hint of Radagast failing. Gandalf speaks warmly of him ('the honest Radagast'), he does Saruman's bidding as head of the White Council, coming to find Gandalf; he does what Gandalf asks, and sets his animal friends to watch for news, and thus was responsible for Gandalf escaping from Isengard. Elrond sends messages to him after the Council, but he isn't sitting around at Rosghobel, but is presumably off still helping out. Perhaps he helps the Beornings, who knows? He is treated as an active member of the forces of good.
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Old 10-22-2003, 11:36 PM   #40
Westerly Wizard
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 72
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Sting

You might want to check this webpage, it kind of discusses the final sources from HoME listed above in perspective of all other sources on the Blue Wizards.

http://www.lotrlibrary.com/agesofarda/bluewizards.asp
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