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Old 04-06-2005, 02:41 PM   #1
Findegil
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Narn i Chîn Húrin 3: The End of the Narn

This is the first draft of an expaned version ot the Story of Túrin Turambar NA. Our basis text is: Unfinished Tales; part 1; The First Age ; chapter 2: The Narn i Hîn Húrin (Narn). All additions from other sources are marked.

For a easier discussion the text will be devided into three parts:
1. The Fostering of Túrin: Reaching from the intro to the Narn until the end of Dor-Curathol
2. Beleg & Falivirn: Takes the story until the Fall of Nargothrond
3. The End of the Narn

Part 1 corrospondes more or less to the part of the Narn given in Unfinished Tales up to the big break at the end of Of Mîm including what is given in the Appendix to the Narn

Part 2 does fill the break in the Narn as given in Unfinished Tales. In this part only we will try to take up parts of the old Lay of the Children of Húrin.

Part 3 is the End of the Narn as given in Unfinished Tales. And there is not much to add or to change in this part.

In addtion one thread will hold the general changes.

We have 4 groups of changes:

NA-zz: General changes given and discussed in the list below. These changes are taken up in the text, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers"

NA-RG-zz: These changes are semi general. They are normaly forced by a change in the nomuclature but could within the lines of a poem that are added not dealt with by simple replacment. The changed nomuclature is listed but not numbered with the general changes below.

NA-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit to the later sources. These editorial markers are also sometimes used when a change was not made that could or should be considered and discussed in view of the stroyline of a later text.

NA-TI-zz For text that is takenin from other sources since it was left out in the version given in the Unfinisched Tales.

NA-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, and texts takenin which I marked for easier reference.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normaly only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.

There are not much changes in this last section. Therefore the amount of text given here is equally small.

Quote:
The Return of Túrin to Dor-lómin
At last worn by haste and the long road (for forty leagues and more had he journeyed without rest) Túrin came with the first ice of winter to the pools of Ivrin, where before he had been healed. …

Therefore Turambar laid his black sword by, and took it no more to battle, and wielded rather the bow and the spear. But he would not suffer the Orcs to use the Crossings of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] or draw near the mound where Finduilas was laid. Haudh-en-Elleth it was named, the Mound of the Elfmaid, and soon the Orcs learned to dread that place, and shunned it. And {Dorlas}[Darlas] said to Turambar: "You have renounced the name, but the blacksword you are still; and does not rumour say truly that he was the son of Húrin of Dor-lómin, lord of the House of Hador?"
And Turambar answered: "So I have heard. But publish it not, I beg you, as you are my friend."
The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond
When the Fell Winter withdrew new tidings of Nargothrond came to Doriath. For some that escaped from the sack, and had survived the winter in the wild, came at last seeking refuge with Thingol, and the march-wards brought them to the King. And some said that all the enemy had withdrawn northwards, and others that Glaurung abode still in the halls of Felagund; and some said that the Mormegil was slain, and others that he was cast under a spell by the Dragon and dwelt there yet, as one changed to stone. But all declared that it was known in Nargothrond ere the end that the blacksword was none other than Túrin son of Húrin of Dor-lómin. NA-EX-59<Ap Narn {In another place there is a note that it was}/And/ when Morwen heard in Doriath of the appearance of the Dragon-helm at the Battle of Tumhalad {that} she knew that the tale was true that the Mormegil was indeed Túrin her son.>
Then great was the fear and sorrow of Morwen and of Nienor; and Morwen said: "Such doubt is the very work of Morgoth! May we not learn the truth, and know surely the worst that we must endure?"

Now Turambar was in haste to go; but when he came to Níniel, to bid her farewell, she clung to him, weeping grievously. "Go not forth, Turambar, I beg!" she said. "Challenge not the shadow that you have fled from! Nay, nay, flee still, and take me with you, far away!"
"Níniel most dear," he answered, "we cannot flee further, you and I. We are hemmed in this land. And even should I go, deserting the people that befriended us, I could but take you forth into the houseless wild, to your death and the death of our child. A hundred leagues lie between us and any land that is yet beyond the reach of the Shadow. But take heart, Níniel. For I say to you: neither you nor I shall be slain by this Dragon, nor by any foe of the North." Then Níniel ceased to weep and fell silent, but her kiss was cold as they parted.
Then Turambar NA-EX-60<editorial addition based on Ap Narn set the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin on his head, and> with {Dorlas}[Darlas] and Hunthor went away hotfoot to Nen Girith, and when they came there the sun was westering and shadows were long; and the last two of the scouts were there awaiting them.

There now Glaurung lay, with jaws agape; but all his fires were burned out, and his evil eyes were closed. He was stretched out in his length, and had rolled upon one side, and the hilts of Gurthang stood in his belly. Then the heart of Turambar rose high within him, and though the Dragon still breathed he would recover his sword, which if he prized it before was now worth to him all the treasure of Nargothrond. True proved the words spoken at its forging that nothing, great or small, should live that once it had bitten.
Therefore going up to his foe he set foot upon his belly, and seizing the hilts of Gurthang he put forth his strength to withdraw it. And he cried in mockery of Glaurung's words at Nargothrond: "Hail, Worm of Morgoth! Well met again! Die now and the darkness have thee! Thus is Túrin son of Húrin avenged NA-EX-61<Ap Narn /by Turambar,/ a master of another name /wearing the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin/>." Then he wrenched out the sword, and even as he did so a spout of black blood followed it, and fell upon his hand and his flesh was burned by the venom, so that he cried aloud at the pain. Thereat Glaurung stirred and opened his baleful eye and looked upon Turambar with such malice that it seemed to him that he was smitten by an arrow; and for that and for the anguish of his hand he fell in a swoon, and lay as one dead beside the Dragon, and his sword was beneath him.


Then they lifted up Túrin, and saw that his sword was broken asunder. So passed all that he possessed.
With toil of many hands they gathered wood and piled it high and made a great burning, and destroyed the body of the Dragon, until he was but black ash and his bones beaten to dust, and the place of that burning was ever bare and barren thereafter. But Túrin they laid in a high mound where he had fallen, and the shards of Gurthang were set beside him. And when all was done, and the minstrels of Elves and Men had made lament, telling of the valour of Turambar and the beauty of Níniel, a great grey stone was brought and set upon the mound; NA-EX-62<editorial addition based on WH and the Men of Brethil call it Talbor, the Standing Stone,> and thereon the Elves carved in the Runes of Doriath:

TÚRIN TURAMBAR DAGNIR GLAURUNGA

and beneath they wrote also:

NIENOR NÍNIEL

But she was not there, nor was it ever known whither the cold waters of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] had taken her.

Thus ends the Tale of the Children of Húrin, longest of all the lays of Beleriand.

NA-EX-59: It might be better to skip the sentence right before that insertion but I am not sure if that is really needed.

NA-EX-60: This is the only place were I did insert the wearing of the Dragon-helm into the later story. This might be to conservative but I sought it would work together with NA-EX-61.

NA-EX-61: The additions made here are risky since we have no clue how Tolkien would have dealt with the scene. But I followed the note in the Appendix of the Narn as good as I could.

NA-EX-62: We have already discussed the need of this change in WH were Aiwendil did remark that the word Talbor would not be understand if it is nowhere defined. Here now is the place to define it, but I found my self cheated by my memory. I thought that in WH we had an actual statement how this would have been done here but all I could find was this:
Quote:
An isolated slip, headed Names, has the following notes:
The Haladin name of people directly descended from Haldar Haleth's brother (by male or female line), a family or 'nothlir' from which the Chieftains or Halbars of Brethil were chosen by the Folk.
For halad sg. 'chieftain'..... halbar.
The Chieftain after Brandir was Hardang.
His evil-counsellor friend to be Daruin.
Dorlas > Darlas
Dar = mastery, lordship
bor = stone. The Stone in the Ring was the halabor. The Standing Stone was the Talbor.

The word halbar 'chieftain', to be substituted for halad, appears in a note pencilled on the genealogical table of the Haladin, where also the name Haldar was apparently altered to Halbar: see p. 238. The name Talbor of the Standing Stone appears also in an addition to the Narn plot-synopsis (p. 257), but the stone in the Moot-ring is named Angbor 'Doom-rock' in additions to the typescript text of WH (see p. 283). These new names, and Darlas for Dorlas, Daruin for Avranc, must represent a further group of substitutions subsequent to the final text of WH, although it is odd in that case that Hardang should be included.
It is clear, that the named plot synopsis is relatively late, but it is unknown how it is related to the edited text which Christopher Tolkien gave in UT. So if we think that the change is overbold here we would leave it out and would see how we can define the name Talbor in WH.

In addition to the numbered points there is a further case that must be considered: “Then they lifted up Túrin, and saw that his sword was broken asunder. So passed all that he possessed.”
This sentence isn’t quite correct if the Dragon-helm is considered. The Helm could be considered as not in Túrins possession but only a item loan by his elder to be given to his heirs. But that is very artificial. If we name the Helm here (“Then they lifted up Túrin, and saw that his sword was broken asunder. So passed all that he possessed NA-EX-61.5<editorial addition save the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin>.”) it would be very strange not to mention its further placement.
We know that Tolkien planed for a time to return the Helm to Húrin while he came in contact to Brethil. But in Wh we decided that this is an unworkable plan or was skipped by JRR Tolkien while writing the text of WH. Thus on the one hand we cannot say that it was buried with Túrin and we can not say it was left in Brethil since we saw no way to in cooperate that into WH. I do not know any good way out of this dilemma that would not be a fan-fic. (I can envision a nice story-line were the helm was taken to Menegroth by Mablung in the hope that Morwen might be found and were Húrin received it there from Thingol or from Mablung himself. But that is pure fan-fic.) The more I think about this the more tend to try again to in cooperate the Helm into WH.


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Old 01-18-2006, 06:30 PM   #2
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NA-EX-61: I don't doubt that Tolkien would have re-written this dialogue quite differently; but we are constrained to make the minimal change. I think that perhaps we could just leave it at:

Quote:
NA-EX-61<Ap Narn /by Turambar,/ a master of another name>."
I think that the reference would be clear. If not, we might also try:

Quote:
NA-EX-61<Ap Narn /by Turambar, for the Dragon Helm has found/ a master of another name>."
. . . only because that phrasing sounds a little more natural to me. But these are just minor details; in principle, your line is fine.

NA-EX-62: I think it's fine to put the name here. After all, we must artificially insert it either here or in WH, and I don't see any reason to prefer one over the other. So it seems to me that putting it in at the first reference to the stone is more natural.


Quote:
In addition to the numbered points there is a further case that must be considered: “Then they lifted up Túrin, and saw that his sword was broken asunder. So passed all that he possessed.”
This was one of my reservations about extending the history of the Helm past Amon Rudh. I'm still not inclined to add the Helm into WH. Would not the simplest solution be:

Quote:
Then they lifted up Túrin, and saw that his sword was broken asunder. {So passed all that he possessed}.
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Old 01-19-2006, 05:52 PM   #3
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Quote:
NA-EX-61<Ap Narn /by Turambar, for the Dragon Helm has found/ a master of another name>."
I think the Helm should be mentioned and your line sounds better then mine.

NA-EX-62: That point is done then.

Are you fine with NA-EX-59 and NA-EX-60?

NA-EX-61.5: Yes your solution is simple and effectiv.

But still I tend to bring the story of the Dragon-helm to the point were Tolkien left it. And that would mean to mention that Húrin recieved it back in the end. The draft outline reads for me like the startingpoint for WH. Okay the story developed much while it was actually written. But is not "They will not admit him - saying that the Halethrim do not wish any more to become enmeshed in the shadow of his kin" what Manthor doth before his death. I see some possible points to mention Húrin recieving the Helm:

Version 1: Just here were Túrin died:
Quote:
Then they lifted up Túrin, and saw that his sword was broken asunder.NA-EX-61.5{ So passed all that he possessed.}
With toil of many hands they gathered wood and piled it high and made a great burning, and destroyed the body of the Dragon, until he was but black ash and his bones beaten to dust, and the place of that burning was ever bare and barren thereafter. But Túrin they laid in a high mound where he had fallen, and the shards of Gurthang were set beside him. NA-EX-61.7<WH, based on Note at the end of GA But the Dragon-helm remained in Brethil until it was given to Húrin.> And when all was done, and the minstrels of Elves and Men had made lament, telling of the valour of Turambar and the beauty of Níniel, a great grey stone was brought and set upon the mound; NA-EX-62<editorial addition based on WH and the Men of Brethil call it Talbor, the Standing Stone,> and thereon the Elves carved in the Runes of Doriath:
Version 2: Early in the dealing of Hardan and Húrin, in the one moment were Hardangs mode is softend:
Quote:
Then he turned towards Húrin, who sat meanwhile bent on the low stool; his eyes were closed, and he seemed to take no heed of what was said. 'Well, Húrin of Hithlum,' said Hardang, 'what of your errand? Is it a matter of haste? Or will you not perhaps take thought and rest and speak of it later more at your ease? Meanwhile RD-WH-07.5<based on Note at the end of GA I give back the Dragon-helm to you and >we may find you some food less distasteful.' Hardang's tone was now more gentle, and he rose as he spoke; for he was a wary man, and he had marked the displeasure on the faces of others beside Manthor.
Here we have not the actuall deed but that could be suposed to be done later.

Version 3: During the Moot:
Quote:
Thereupon there was even greater uproar, and men stood up on the turfbanks, clashing their arms, and crying: 'Free! Free! Set him free!' And many voices were heard also shouting: 'Away with this {Halad}[Halbar]! Put him in the caves!'
Many of the older men who sat in the lowest tier ran forward and knelt before Húrin to ask his pardon; and one offered him a staff, and another gave him a fair cloak and a great belt of silver RD-WH-07.5<Note at the end of GA /, and one /{But ^ [?new] Lord gives}gave the Dragon-helm to Húrin. >And when Húrin was so clad, and had a staff in hand, he went to the {Angbor}[Halabor] Stone and stood up on it, in no wise as a suppliant, but in mien as a king; and facing the assembly he cried in a great voice: 'I thank you, Masters of Brethil here present, who have released me from dishonour. There is then justice still in your land, though it has slept and been slow to awake. But now I have a charge to bring in my turn.
Version 4: After Manthor had have a chance to get it:
Quote:
The next day, when the news that Hardang was dead went abroad, a great throng of people sought for Manthor, crying that he must be Chieftain. But he said: 'Nay, this must be laid before the full Moot. That cannot be yet; for the Ring is unhallowed, and there are other things more pressing to do. First I have an errand. I must go to the Field of the Worm and the Stone of the Hapless, where Morwen their mother lies untended. Will any come with me?'
Then ruth smote the hearts of those that heard him; and though some drew back in fear, many were willing to go, but among these there were more women than men. RD-WH-10.5<Note at the end of GA /While they prepearde for that task /{But ^ [?new] Lord gives}[Manthor] gave the Dragon-helm to Húrin.>
Therefore at length they set off in silence on the path that led down along the falling torrent of Celebro
Version 5: With the man that followed Húrin to Nargothrond as was discussed before.

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Old 01-27-2006, 03:04 PM   #4
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Quote:
Are you fine with NA-EX-59 and NA-EX-60?
Yes.

I have given the matter of the Dragon-helm some more thought. It still seems to me that the note in which the Helm is given to Hurin was superceded by WH. The crucial point, it seems to me, is that in the original note the new lord of Brethil gave the Helm to Hurin. I don't think there can be any doubt that at this stage, that lord was imagined to be sympathetic to Hurin and that the Helm was given in friendship; if some other story lay behind the gesture, I'm sure this would have been mentioned. The introduction of Hardang makes the note obselete, in my opinion.

I certainly acknowledge that it's possible that Tolkien would have re-introduced the Helm had he continued WH. But this is just one of many cases where there is something Tolkien might have done. Moreover, it seems to me very likely that, had he still envisioned the Helm coming to Hurin, he would have mentioned it in one of the outlines for the continuation of WH.

So it looks like I'm still against giving the Helm to Hurin.
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Old 01-27-2006, 05:43 PM   #5
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NA-EX-61.5: I can understand your point. And I must admiss that non of my own tries was fully statisfaying for myself. So we will take your suggestion and skip simply the sentence "So passed all that he possessed."

It seems we are done with this chapter for the moment. It is a pity that in the moment are only two of us are active. I fell that in this way we can not produce anything final. Nevertheless I will produce a new version of the text as soon as I get a bit of time for it. Happily the project had been going so slow that I was able to keep up with the changes discussed here. I only must make a final check if I have done all the changes.

Are we going on in the same way with Beren & Luthien?

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Old 01-28-2006, 09:30 PM   #6
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It is a pity that in the moment are only two of us are active.
I agree completely. Perhaps we should send (or offer to send) our Turin and Ruin of Doriath texts out to a few of those who were at one time heavily involved with the project - Lindil, Maedhros, perhaps Mister Underhill and Mithadan.

I suppose Beren and Luthien is next. I will take a look at that thread as soon as I get a chance.
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Old 01-29-2006, 02:28 PM   #7
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I thought about sending what we have done out to some properbly still interested people myself. On the other hand we could maybe make some advertising in the Books Forum?

Anyway what will be needed is the text of "Túrin" as it stand now. I will try to produce it in the longrun of the next week.

I would like to hear any comment of yours to Beren and Luthien. But I have to warn you: as it stand now I did it all in one post. This might be a bit unhandy. Feel free to set a breakpoint in the discussion when ever you think it is fitting.

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Old 01-30-2006, 08:19 AM   #8
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Quote:
I agree completely. Perhaps we should send (or offer to send) our Turin and Ruin of Doriath texts out to a few of those who were at one time heavily involved with the project - Lindil, Maedhros, perhaps Mister Underhill and Mithadan.
Although sadly I have been unable to participate as I used to in the Project, I have been keeping an eye on the discussion.
I would not have been any help with the verse part in general.

Quote:
I have given the matter of the Dragon-helm some more thought. It still seems to me that the note in which the Helm is given to Hurin was superceded by WH. The crucial point, it seems to me, is that in the original note the new lord of Brethil gave the Helm to Hurin. I don't think there can be any doubt that at this stage, that lord was imagined to be sympathetic to Hurin and that the Helm was given in friendship; if some other story lay behind the gesture, I'm sure this would have been mentioned. The introduction of Hardang makes the note obselete, in my opinion.

I certainly acknowledge that it's possible that Tolkien would have re-introduced the Helm had he continued WH. But this is just one of many cases where there is something Tolkien might have done. Moreover, it seems to me very likely that, had he still envisioned the Helm coming to Hurin, he would have mentioned it in one of the outlines for the continuation of WH.
As I recalled, that was your point way before in the discussion. To me personally, I would have liked to keep the Dragon-helm so that when Húrin reached Menegroth, in his speech with Thingol he would have given that to him.
But I guess that you are right and alas, Húrin should not get it.
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Old 01-30-2006, 12:51 PM   #9
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Nice that you are still around Maedhros!

One last and nearly desparate idea would be to insert an note at Húrins death that with him the Dragon-helm disapeared. In that way we could make clear that Húrin got the Helm but we could let the way in which this happened completly unmentioned. Thus the core-idea of the note that Húrin got the Dragon-helm back would be kept.

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Old 01-31-2006, 04:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aiwendil
I have given the matter of the Dragon-helm some more thought. It still seems to me that the note in which the Helm is given to Hurin was superceded by WH. The crucial point, it seems to me, is that in the original note the new lord of Brethil gave the Helm to Hurin. I don't think there can be any doubt that at this stage, that lord was imagined to be sympathetic to Hurin and that the Helm was given in friendship; if some other story lay behind the gesture, I'm sure this would have been mentioned. The introduction of Hardang makes the note obselete, in my opinion.

I certainly acknowledge that it's possible that Tolkien would have re-introduced the Helm had he continued WH. But this is just one of many cases where there is something Tolkien might have done. Moreover, it seems to me very likely that, had he still envisioned the Helm coming to Hurin, he would have mentioned it in one of the outlines for the continuation of WH.

So it looks like I'm still against giving the Helm to Hurin.
Quote:
Originally posted by Findegil
One last and nearly desparate idea would be to insert an note at Húrins death that with him the Dragon-helm disapeared. In that way we could make clear that Húrin got the Helm but we could let the way in which this happened completly unmentioned. Thus the core-idea of the note that Húrin got the Dragon-helm back would be kept.
I would have liiked nothing better than for Húrin to get the Dragon-helm back but I don't think that we can use the last idea. There is no mention in the note that at Húrin's death, he had with him the helm, unless I'm mistaken.
I think that Aiwendil, alas have made a very strong point about the helm.
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Old 01-31-2006, 06:45 PM   #11
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Alas, I agree. But I think we should quote the note in the Appendix of comments that we agreed to creat.

I will now start to post the new version of the Narn text.

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Old 02-01-2006, 10:39 PM   #12
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Perhaps we should send (or offer to send) our Turin and mybe we should send the Ruin of Doriath and Turin texts out to a few of those who were at one time heavily involved with the project
I would be happy to look over anything...
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Old 02-02-2006, 04:05 PM   #13
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Maedhros, Lindil - great to see both of you.

Lindil, Findegil has posted the Turin text as it now stands in the private forum if you want to have a look. All rationales for the changes are of course to be found in the three Turin threads in the public forum.
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Old 05-25-2007, 04:28 PM   #14
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Lets come to the last bits of change found in this part of CoH.
Quote:
...
At that the company fell silent, and some drew away, looking askance at the stranger. But one old vagabond man, with a crutch, said: ‘If you must speak the old tongue, master, speak it softer, and ask for no tidings. Would you be beaten for a rogue, or hung for a spy? For both you may well be by the looks of you. Which is but to say,’ he said, coming near and speaking low in Túrin's ear, ‘one of the kindly folk of old that came with Hador in the days of gold, before heads wore wolf-hair. Some here are of {that}NA-EX-58.2 <CoH like> sort, though now made beggars and slaves, and but for the Lady Aerin would get neither this fire nor this broth. Whence are you, and what news would you have?’
...
Then Brodda rose in wrath. ‘I rule this house,’ said he. But before he could say more, Túrin said: ‘Then you have not <CoH yet> learned the courtesy that was in this land before you. Is it now the manner of men to let lackeys mishandle the kinsmen of their wives? Such am I, and I have an errand to the Lady Aerin. Shall I come freely, or shall I come as I will?’
...
Therefore walking at guess she found the hill, which was indeed close at hand, by the rising of the ground before her feet; and slowly she climbed the path that led up from the east. And as she climbed so the fog grew thinner, until she came at last out into the sunlight on the bare summit. Then she stepped forward and looked westward. And there right before her was the great head of Glaurung, who had even then crept up from the other side; and before she was aware her eyes NA-EX-59.1 <Coh had> looked in <Coh the fell spirit of> his eyes, and they were terrible, being filled with the fell spirit of Morgoth, his master.
<Coh Strong was the will and heart of Niënor, and she>{Then Niënor} strove against Glaurung{, for she was strong in will}; but he put forth his power against her. ‘What seek you here?’ he said.
...
Thus they were assailed at unawares by a band of Orc-hunters, such as now roamed much in that region, as nigh to the fences of Doriath as they dared to go. In the midst of the affray suddenly Niënor leapt up from her couch, as one waking out of sleep to an alarm by night, and with a cry she sped away into the forest. Then the Orcs turned and gave chase and the Elves after them. But a strange changeNA-EX-59.2 <Coh had come>{came} upon Niënor and now she outran them all, flying like a deer among the trees with her hair streaming in the wind of her speed. The Orcs indeed Mablung and his companions swiftly overtook and they slew them one and all, and hastened on. But by then Niënor had passed away like a wraith; and neither sight nor slot of her could they find, though they hunted for many days.
...
Niënor in Brethil
But as for Niënor, she ran on into the wood, hearing the shouts of pursuit come behind; and her clothing she tore off, casting away her garments NA-EX-59.3 <Coh one by one> as she fled, until she went naked; and all that day still she ran, as a beast that is hunted to heart-bursting, and dare not stay or draw breath. But at evening suddenly her madness passed. She stood still a moment as in wonder, and then, in a swoon of utter weariness, she fell as one stricken down into a deep brake of fern. And there amid the old bracken and the swift fronds of spring she lay and slept, heedless of all.
...
But indeed it was a black storm that came up out of the South, laden with lightning and great rain; and she lay there cowering in terror of the thunder, and the dark rain smote her nakedness NA-EX-59.4 <CoH , and she watched without words as a wild thing that is traped>.
Now it chanced that some of the woodmen of Brethil came ...
...
In the morning they bore Níniel towards Ephel Brandir, and the road went steeply upward towards Amon Obel until it came to a place where it must cross the tumbling stream of Celebros. There a bridge of wood had been built, and below it the stream went over a lip of worn stone, and fell down by many foaming steps into a rocky bowl far below; and all the air was filled with spray like rain. There was a wide greensward at the head of the falls, and birches grew about it, but over the bridge there was a wide view towards the ravines of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] some two miles to the west. There the air was <CoH ever>cool and there wayfarers in summer would rest and drink of the cold water. Dimrost, the Rainy Stair, those falls were called, but after that day Nen Girith, the Shuddering Water; for Turambar and his men halted there, but as soon as Níniel came to that place she grew cold and shivered, and they could not warm her or comfort her.{ 24} Therefore they hastened on their way; but before they came to Ephel Brandir Níniel was already wandering in a fever.
...
And now Níniel was fully healed, and was grown fair and strong; and Turambar restrained himself no longer, but asked her in marriage. Then Níniel was glad; but when Brandir {learned}<CoH heard> of it his heart was sick within him, and he said to her: ‘Be not in haste! Think me not unkindly, if I counsel you to wait.’
...
‘But how can he come forward so?’ said {Dorlas}[Darlas]. ‘Lithe he may be, but he is a great Dragon, and how shall he climb down the one cliff and up the other, when part must again be climbing before the hinder NA-EX-60.1 <CoH part> is yet descended? And if he can so, what will it avail us to be in the wild water below?’
...
They set out therefore at dusk, and they did not go straight towards the Dragon, but took first the path to the Crossings; then, before they came so far, they turned southward by a narrow track and passed into the twilight of the woods above {Teiglin}[Taeglin].{ 26} And as they drew near to Cabed-en-Aras, step by step, halting often to listen, the reek of burning came to them, and a stench that sickened them. But all was deadly still, and there was no stir of air. The first stars glimmered in the East NA-EX-60.2{ behind}{<CoH before> them}, and faint spires of smoke rose straight and unwavering against the last light in the West.
...
When Níniel and her company had gone, Brandir said to those that remained: ‘Behold how I am scorned, and all my counsel disdained! NA-EX-60.3 <CoH Choose you another to lead you: for here I renounce both lordship and people.> Let Turambar be your lord in name, since already he has taken all my authority.{ For here I renounce both lordship and people.} Let none seek of me ever again either counsel or healing!’ And he broke his staff. To himself he thought: ‘Now nothing is left to me, save only my love of Níniel: therefore where she goes, in wisdom or folly, I must go. In this dark hour nothing can be foreseen; but it may well chance that even I could ward off some evil from her, if I were {near}<CoH nigh>.’
He girt himself therefore with a short sword, as seldom before, and took his crutch, and went with what speed he might out of the gate of the Ephel, limping after the others down the long path to the west march of Brethil.
...
Now there was need to be bold and swift, for though Turambar and Hunthor had escaped the blast, since they were not standing right in Glaurung's path, they yet had to come at him, before he passed over, or all their hope failed. Heedless of peril Turambar clambered along the water-edge {NA-EX-60.4 <CoH cliff>} to come beneath him; but there so deadly was the heat and the stench that he tottered and would have fallen if Hunthor, following stoutly behind, had not seized his arm and steadied him.
...
As Brandir came to Nen Girith the pallid moon was gone down, and the night was fading; morning was opening in the East. The people that cowered there still by the bridge saw him come like a grey shadow in the dawn, and some called to him in wonder: ‘Where have you been? Have you seen her? For the Lady Níniel is gone.’
‘Yes, NA-EX-61.1 <CoH’, said Brandir, ‘>she is gone{,’ he said}. {‘}Gone, gone, never to return! But I am come to bring you tidings. Hear now, people of Brethil, and say if there was ever such a tale as the tale that I bear! The Dragon is dead, but dead also is Turambar at his side. And those are good tiding: yes, both are good indeed.’
...
‘That is well then,’ he said. ‘Then I will go to my home. Is there a horse to bear me? Or a bier would be better. I faint with my labours.’
‘Nay, nay!’ said Brandir in anguish NA-EX-61.2 <CoH of heart>. ‘Your house is empty. Níniel is not there. She is dead.’
But one of the women – the wife of {Dorlas}[Darlas], who loved Brandir little – cried shrilly: ...
...
‘Cabed-en-Aras, Cabed Naeramarth!’ he cried. ‘I will not defile your waters where Níniel was washed. For all my deeds have been ill, and the latest the worst.’
Then he drew forth his sword, and said: ‘Hail Gurthang, iron of death, thou alone now {remainest} NA-EX-61.3 <CoH remain>! But what lord or loyalty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee? From no blood wilt thou shrink! Wilt thou take Túrin Turambar? Wilt thou slay me swiftly?’
...
{Thus}NA-EX-62.1 <CoH Here> ends the Tale of the Children of Húrin, longest of all the lays of Beleriand.
I see nothing to comment up to NA-EX-60.2.
NA-EX-60.2 and NA-EX-60.4: I did not take up this change. It was introduced by Christopher Tolkien and he gives the following explaination in the Appendix to CoH:
Quote:
In the remainder of the story, from Túrin's return to Dor-lómin, to which my father gave a finished form, there are naturally very few differences from the text in Unfinished Tales. But there are two matters of detail in the account of the attack on Glaurung at Cabed-en-Aras where I have emended the original words and which should be explained.
The first concerns the geography. It is said (p.230) that when Túrin and his companions set out from Nen Girith on the fateful evening they did not go straight towards the Dragon, lying on the further side of the ravine, but took first the path towards the Crossings of Teiglin; and 'then, before they came so far, they turned southward by a narrow track' and went through the woods above the river towards Cabed-en-Aras. As they approached, in the original text of the passage, 'the first stars glimmered in the east behind them.'
When I prepared the text for Unfinished Tales I did not observe that this could not be right, since they were certainly not moving in a westerly direction, but east, or southeast, away from the Crossing, and the first stars in the east must have been before them, not behind them. When discussing this in The War of the Jewels (1994, p. 157) I accepted the suggestion that the 'narrow track' going southward turned again westward to reach the Teiglin. But this seems to me now to be improbable, as being without point in the narrative, and that a much simpler solution is to emend 'behind them' to 'before them', as I have done in the new text.
...
The second matter concerns the story of the slaying of Glaurung at the crossing of the ravine. There are here a draft and a final version. In the draft, Túrin and his companions climbed up the further side of the chasm until they came beneath the brink; they hung there as the night passed, and Túrin 'strove with dark dreams of dread in which all his will was given to clinging and holding'. When day came Glaurung prepared to cross at a point 'many paces to the northward', and so Túrin had to climb down to the river-bed and then up the cliff again to get beneath the Dragon's belly.
In the final version (p. 235) Túrin and Hunthor wre omly part way up the further side when Túrin said that they wre wasting their strength in climbing up now, before they knew where Glaurung would cross; 'they halted therefore and waited'. It is not said that they descended from where they were when they ceased to climb, and the passage concerning Túrin's dream 'in which all his will was given to clinging' reappears from the draft text. But in the revised story there was no need for them to cling: they could and surely would have descended to the bottom and waited there. In fact, this is what they did: it is said in the final text (Unfinished Tales, p. 134) that they were not standing in Glaurung's path and that Túrin 'clambered along the water-edge to come beneath him'. It seems then that the final story carries an unneeded trait from the previous draft. To give it coherence I have emended (p. 236) 'since they were not standing right in Glaurung's path', and 'clambered along the water-edge' to 'clambered along the cliff'.
Can we consider these problematik lines as a slips of the pen? I strongly doubt this. Even the new sketch map provided in CoH does inspite of what Christopher Tolkien discusses above the track turning west before it reach finally the Teiglin. And the problem with the climbing up and down I see not why we have to change it. And why this is the way to do it. If we I would be asked to clearify the passage I would be inclinde to add a line from the draft where Túrin climbed first down when Glaurung moved.

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Old 10-26-2007, 01:51 AM   #15
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the wanderings of hurin

this might be off topic but what about the wanderings of hurin i added it to my chilldren of hurin and i think it made it better.
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Old 10-28-2007, 10:14 AM   #16
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The Wanderings of Húrin are not offtopic. But we followed all versions compiled by JRR Tolkien and used The Wanderings of Húrin as the first part of the next Chapter Of the Ruin of Doriath. So the only divernce to your Idea is that it is seperated by a chapter break.

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Old 10-30-2007, 10:46 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
And the problem with the climbing up and down I see not why we have to change it. And why this is the way to do it. If we I would be asked to clearify the passage I would be inclinde to add a line from the draft where Túrin climbed first down when Glaurung moved.

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I agree, I think if any change should have been made it should have be to add that they climbed down and then back up; not to just take out that part and then change other sentences to go along with that idea. Christopher says himself "In fact that is what they did" concerning them climbing back down and then back up, so I think changes should be made to keep this element of the story, not to remove it.
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Old 10-31-2007, 07:22 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Aaront596 View Post
I agree, I think if any change should have been made it should have be to add that they climbed down and then back up; not to just take out that part and then change other sentences to go along with that idea. Christopher says himself "In fact that is what they did" concerning them climbing back down and then back up, so I think changes should be made to keep this element of the story, not to remove it.
Well I agree with both of you, there is no need to alter the original Tolkien text since the action of "climbing back down" seem to me quite implicit...

I think the best solution can be reached with a footnote

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Old 10-31-2007, 02:39 PM   #19
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For what would we need a footnote here? But any way, we will not open the floodgate of footnotes; at least not for this. Our aime is not to make each and every obscure sentence of Tolkien clear to any reader. If an action can only be glimpsed implicit by thinking about a passage that is original JRR Tolkien that is totaly okay. Only if we would creat such a obscurity by our editing we would have to clear it up. And we wouldn't do that by a footnote!

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Old 10-31-2007, 03:54 PM   #20
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I think a footnote is exactly not what this project is about. I think the text should be changed to show Turin climbing down and then back up since that is what he did. When I get a chance I’ll look at the texts and make a suggestion of how it should read, that is if there is text by Tolkien describing it. If there isn't text describing it then maybe something else (perhaps just leaving it alone) would be better, but a foot note would basically be the exact same thing Christopher did and thus would be pointless.

Plus the goal of this project from my understanding is to eliminate footnotes by incorporating them as well as all other sources that can be inserted without altering the text too much, or at all, with our own words or altering to our knowledge Tolkien’s latest and or final plans and decisions for his histories of middle earth.
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Old 10-31-2007, 05:41 PM   #21
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Plus the goal of this project from my understanding is to eliminate footnotes by incorporating them as well as all other sources that can be inserted without altering the text too much, or at all, with our own words or altering to our knowledge Tolkien’s latest and or final plans and decisions for his histories of middle earth.
This is more or less the problem I have always had with footnotes in this project, though I can see how they might be justifiable in principle.

Anyway, in this instance, I agree that a footnote is not the way to go.

It's not entirely clear to me what the best course is in this passage. If I understand Christopher's discussion correctly, the final text by JRRT seems to contain a contradiction: on the one hand, they stop climbing up before they reach the top (suggesting they would go back down) and later they are said to clamber along the water's edge to reach the spot where Glaurung crosses. On the other hand, Turin still has a dream 'in which all his strength is given to clinging'.

If we must choose one or the other alternative, I suppose we must go with the story that they climb down and then go along the water's edge. That leaves two questions: first, whether we must delete the dream; second, whether it is necessary to add something to the text to indicate that they climbed down.

I'm inclined to answer the second question in the negative. Their climbing down can be seen as implicit in the statement that they stopped halfway up. In any case, Tolkien seems not to have felt anything more necessary. As for the dream, I suppose it should probably go. One could suppose that Turin climbed back down and still then had a dream in which he was clinging to the cliff - but I am inclined to agree with Christopher here that this was an artifact of the previous version.

So my suggestion is to delete the dream but otherwise retain JRRT's final version of the text. And sorry for my accustomed long-windedness.
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Old 10-31-2007, 08:37 PM   #22
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If we I would be asked to clearify the passage I would be inclinde to add a line from the draft where Túrin climbed first down when Glaurung moved.

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Do we have access to this draft?
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Old 11-01-2007, 03:29 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post
This is more or less the problem I have always had with footnotes in this project, though I can see how they might be justifiable in principle.

Anyway, in this instance, I agree that a footnote is not the way to go.
Right...got the point...

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Their climbing down can be seen as implicit in the statement that they stopped halfway up. In any case, Tolkien seems not to have felt anything more necessary.
That seems to me right...it is implicit...there is no need to add anything else


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As for the dream, I suppose it should probably go. One could suppose that Turin climbed back down and still then had a dream in which he was clinging to the cliff - but I am inclined to agree with Christopher here that this was an artifact of the previous version.

I can't see the problem of the dream...to me it simply referes to what happened the day after when Turin killed the dragon...I would thus not apply any change...
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Old 11-01-2007, 11:17 AM   #24
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Posted by Aaront596:
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Do we have access to this draft?
No. All we have is given in my posting no 14 above. But my speaking was only theoretical. If this passages contains some unclear events than that is not our fault but Tolkiens we should leave it at that.

But for my understanding there is just an implicit movement and nothing more. To make my point clear I will give a sequence of events as I see it:

- Túrin and Hunthor cross the Taeglin.
- They climb halfe way up the cliff.
- They decied to stay were they are and cling to the trees of the cliff over night.
- Túrin dreams of clinging to a tree.
- When Glaurung moves in the morning they have to climb down first. This movement is implicit, since
- Túrin 'clambered along the water-edge to come beneath him [Glaurung]')
- Hunthor is slain by a stone, when they come under Glaurung
- Túrin climbs the cliff and slaughters Glaurung

This is very near to the draft as Christopher Tolkien describes it. Only that in the draft Túrin and Hunthor go all the way up to the edge of the cliff.

Now Christopher Tolkien does say to this:
Quote:
It seems then that the final story carries an unneeded trait from the previous draft.
He thinks that:
Quote:
... in the revised story there was no need for them to cling: they could and surely would have descended to the bottom and waited there.
Up to this point he is right but I am not sure that his next interpretation is the only possible one:
Quote:
In fact, this is what they did: it is said in the final text (Unfinished Tales, p. 134) that they were not standing in Glaurung's path and that Túrin 'clambered along the water-edge to come beneath him'.
For me this is an contradiction: Either the final story 'carries an unneeded trait' since Túrin clings to the cliff through the night with out need or 'in fact,' 'descended to the bottom and waited there' 'is what they did'.
Christopher Tolkien takes the decision 'to give it [the text] coherence' by skipping the implicit movement down the cliff in the morning. Therefore Túrin and Hunthor are not 'standing' but 'were' in Glaurungs pass and they do not 'clambered along the water-edge' but 'along the cliff'.

Thus Christopher Tolkien does change the sequence of events to:
- Túrin and Hunthor cross the Taeglin.
- They climb half way up the cliff.
- They decide to stay were they are and cling to the trees of the cliff over night.
- Túrin dreams of clinging to a tree.
- When Glaurung moves in the morning they 'clambered along the cliff to come beneath him [Glaurung]')
- Hunthor is slain by a stone, when they come under Glaurung
- Túrin climbs to the cliffs edge and slaughters Glaurung

The question is now for me: Do we follow Christhopher Tolkiens lead here or do we take JRR Tolkiens text as he left it?

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Old 11-01-2007, 12:06 PM   #25
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I'm ready to put in my vote

Good work Findegil! This is entirely correct!!!

- Túrin and Hunthor cross the Taeglin.
- They climb halfe way up the cliff.
- They decied to stay were they are and cling to the trees of the cliff over night.
- Túrin dreams of clinging to a tree.
- When Glaurung moves in the morning they have to climb down first. This movement is implicit, since
- Túrin 'clambered along the water-edge to come beneath him [Glaurung]')
- Hunthor is slain by a stone, when they come under Glaurung
- Túrin climbs the cliff and slaughters Glaurung

I think there is no need to change any of it since we don't have any of Tolkien’s words to explicitly spell out their coming down. We should just leave it implicit. That’s what Tolkien did.

As far as Christopher saying they would surely come down instead of sleeping clinging to a tree, only Tolkien knows that and he is dead, not even his son knows. So why didn't they wait there over night hoping that where they were was where the dragon would show up? Then they moved down and back up when it was obvious the dragon was somewhere else.

What ever the reason for their staying and clinging doesn’t really matter, the text says that is what they did and since Tolkien’s words say that I vote we leave it alone with no changes.

Of course this is all just my opinion, but it is also my vote.
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Old 11-01-2007, 03:46 PM   #26
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Findegil wrote:
Quote:
The question is now for me: Do we follow Christhopher Tolkiens lead here or do we take JRR Tolkiens text as he left it?
I don't think there's any question of following Christopher's lead. If there is a contradiction in JRRT's final text, it must be resolved in favour of the new story - that they came back down and moved along the bottom of the ravine.

As far as I'm concerned the only question is whether JRRT's text is self-contradictory. I can certainly see Christopher's case for the view that the dream of clinging is an inconsistent holdover from the previoius version. Actually I think this is probably the case. However, I don't think that a contradiction is necessarily implied, so I suppose we could keep the dream.

I don't know if I agree with Findegil's synopsis:

Quote:
- Túrin and Hunthor cross the Taeglin.
- They climb halfe way up the cliff.
- They decied to stay were they are and cling to the trees of the cliff over night.
- Túrin dreams of clinging to a tree.
- When Glaurung moves in the morning they have to climb down first. This movement is implicit, since
- Túrin 'clambered along the water-edge to come beneath him [Glaurung]')
- Hunthor is slain by a stone, when they come under Glaurung
- Túrin climbs the cliff and slaughters Glaurung
I think Christopher is right that it makes little sense to cling to the cliff half-way up if they intend to climb down to move to the place where Glaurung crosses - although I suppose they might at this point not have been sure whether they would need to climb down again or not. Anyway, if we go with JRRT's final text, we need not address the issue of when they climb down - whether they spend the night clinging to the cliff or at the bottom of the ravine.

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Old 09-11-2015, 11:44 AM   #27
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In my version, the Helm of Hador is buried along with Gurthang - I don't see any other way of incorporating the fate of the Dragon-helm inside the story (actually I do, but all the other versions seem rather unsatisfactory to me).
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Old 09-12-2015, 05:31 PM   #28
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But for burying the Dragon-Helm with Túrin no evidence whatsoever is found in Tolkiens writing.

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Old 09-13-2015, 11:24 AM   #29
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But for burying the Dragon-Helm with Túrin no evidence whatsoever is found in Tolkiens writing.
Neither is there any evidence of the fate of the Dragon-helm beside a note in which Húrin should receive it from the Halad of Brethil - but since the conception of the Halad being friendly to Húrin was completely turned upside down, I think that this scenario was rejected.

Also, since Túrin wore the Helm when he killed Glaurung, I don't think it unlikely that the Helm was buried along with Túrin - and moreover, it would be a fitting end of the House of Hador - its greatest heirloom buried for ever alongside the heir of Dor-lómin.

Of course, as you said, there is no textual evidence for that, but I simply had to find a fitting way of resolving the fate of the Helm of Hador - besides, every other attempt at resolving its loose end would be a concoction too - my no better than the rest.
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Old 09-14-2015, 03:36 AM   #30
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Your analyses of the textual situation is perfect, but you conclusion is wrong.

To be clear: Your interpretation of the facts is as good as that of anyone else. But what we put into our text is not what we think that most like happend.

If we finde out that an issue is unsetteled by JRR Tolkien, we will not write any hint of what we think happend in our text. Instaed we have to write our text in a way that every possible solution will stay possible.

Ambivalent wirting is what we Need, not inovative writing.

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Old 09-14-2015, 05:29 AM   #31
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You are right. But I simply could not resist (at least in my version) to let such an important thing unresolved. But, as I said, you are right - and it should be excluded from your version, of course.
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