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Old 04-06-2005, 02:51 PM   #1
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,124
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Beren and Lúthien - Changes needed

This is the first draft of an expaned version ot the Story of Beren and Lúthien BL. Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 3; The Lay of Beleriand; chapter IV: The Lay of Leithian recomenced (LayR). This text is not given in full in HoME, thus it is here silently reconstructed from the old The Lay of Leithian (Lay). Only the numbering of the lines of the poem is that of the old poem when parts of that are used. Where the LayR breaks of the basis text used is that of The History of Middle-Earth; volume 11; The War of the Jewels; chapter IV: The Later Ouenta Silmarillion. This text is not given in full in HoME, thus it is here silently reconstructed from the text in Sil77. In the course of this additions from other sources made by Christopher Tolkien are taken up but marked as such by “editorial markers”.

We have 4 groups of changes:

BL-zz: General changes given and discussed in the list below. These changes are taken up here, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers"

BL-RG-zz: These changes are semi general. They are normaly foced by a change in the nomuclature but could within the poem not dealt with by simple replacment. The changed nomuclature is listed but not numbered with the general changes below.

BL-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit to the later sources. These editorial markers are also sometimes used when a change was not made that could or should be considered and discussed in view of the stroyline of a later text.

BL-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, which I marked for easier reference. Within the poem this is highly difficult and only in two places used. It becomes more common in the later narrative.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normaly only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.


General changes:
It is dificult to make genral changes in a poem. Thus really genral changes are very limited. But I will also list here changes that are regulary necessary even if solved in each place individuly, but these will not be numbered as generall changes. But each individual change will be numbered with a normal editing mark (BL-RG-zz). At the end of each such “regular changs” is given the list of numbers of thes editing markers that a concerned with this particular issue:

BL-01: Dairon to Daeron per Sil77

BL-02: Inglor to Finrod per LotR

Finrod to Finrafin per LotR; this change needs individual solutions since Finrafin has one syllable more then Finrod. (BL-RG-01, -13, -15, -18)

Thu and Gorthu to Sauron per LotR; this change is very difficult since Thu is often used in the rhyme. Tolkien replaced it in some cases by Gorthu but this is also not longer valid and its replacment Gorthaur does not work in the rhyming. Thus we have to find some individual solution for each line. (BL-RG-19, -20, -21, -22, -26, -27, -28, -29, -30, -31, -33, -34, -35, -36, -37, -39, -40, -41, -43, -45, -47)

BL-03: Elfinesse to Elvenesse per Tolkien's general change of Elfin to Elven from earlier to later writings.

BL-04: Gnome/Gnomes/Gnomish to Elf/Elves/Elvish or Noldo/Noldor/Noldorin. "Gnomes" was dropped by Tolkien in LR and later writings, often replaced by Noldor. It would be better artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldoli which can be best done by replacing Gnome/Gnomes by Elf/Elves except where a general reference to Elves would not fit, as in "the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not." Then use Noldor. Exiles would be the exact replacment in sense, but Elves does normaly fit much better in the meter and is much easier understand and is thus generally used in this text. But see BL-RG-03.

BL-04: Glorund to Glaurung per Wanderings of Húrin.

Tun to Tirion per Sil77 but this Tirion has 3 syllables while Tun has only one. Thus each line most be dealed with individually. Where the reference is clear I used Tun to Town. And when it is fitting Tun to Tuna can be used with the neccisity to remove only one other syllable not two. (BL-RG-02, -03, -06, -17)

Gods to Valar, West, Greats per Tolkiens later general avoiding Gods for the Valar; but the change is critical since Valar does not often fit the meter. In some cases I did change Gods to God where the meaning allows a reference to Iluvatar instad of one to the Valar. In the case of Morgoth speaking of his pears as gods I thought it might fit his denying of Iluvatars authority to refer to his pears as gods. (BL-RG-04, -05, -09, -11.5, -16, -23, -24, -25, -38, -42, -44, -46, -48)

Glingal to Laurelin per Sil77 but further changes are needed in the Line. (BL-RG-03, -07)

Belthil to Silpion per Sil77 but further changes are needed in the Line. (BL-RG-03, -08)

BL-05 Damrod to Amrod per Sil77

Diriel to Amras per Sil77 but here a additional syllable is needed for the meter. (BL-RG-10)

Cranthir to Caranthir per Sil77 but here one syllable most beremoved in addition. (BL-RG-11)

BL-06 Maidros and Maedhros to Maeðros per HoME X

BL-07 Egnor to Aegnor per Sil77

Umboth-Muilin to Aelin-uial per QS77 and UT, but we must add a further syllable in. (BL-RG-14)

BL-08 Celegorn to Celegorm per Sil77

BL-09 Taur-na-Fuin to Taur-nu-Fuin per Sil77

BL-10 Dor-na-Fauglith to Dor-nu-Fauglith per Sil77

BL-10 Lhandroval to Landroval per LotR

BL-11 Crisaegrim to Crissaegrim per Sil77

BL-12 Gyrth-I-Guinar to Dor Firn-i-Guinar per Sil77


Quote:
Narn Beren ion Barahir
or
Narn e·Dinúviel

BL-EX-01 <LQS Among the tales of sorrow and ruin that come down to us from the darkness of those days there are yet some that are fair in memory, in which amid weeping there is a sound of music, and amid the tears joy, and under the shadow of death light that endureth. And of these histories most fair still in the ears of the Elves is the tale of Beren and Luthien; for it is sad and joyous, and touches upon mysteries, and it is not ended.
Of their lives was made the Lay of Leithian, Release from Bondage, which is the longest save one of the songs of the BL-EX-02{Noldor}[Númenor] concerning the world of old>.

The Lay of Leithian

Of Thingol in Doriath

A king there was in days of old:
ere Men yet walked upon the mould
BL-EX-01: I liked to hav an intorduction for the tale and the beginning of the chapter in LQS fits very well.

BL-EX-02: This change was already made by Tolkien him self in the LQS2. It is based on the changed trading of the tales of the first age wich we did take up.

Quote:

There many weary with marching slept,
but captains, sprawling on the grass,
drank and from hand to hand let pass
their booty, grudging each small thing 445
raped from dead bodies. BL-SL-01 One a ring
held up, and laughed: 'Now, mates,' he cried
'here's mine! And I'll not be denied,
though few be like it in the land.
For I 'twas wrenched it from the hand 450
of that same Barahir I slew,
the robber-knave. If tales be true,
he had it of some elvish lord,
for the rogue-service of his sword.
No help it gave to him - he's dead. 455
They're parlous, elvish rings, 'tis said;
still for the gold I'll keep it, yea
and so eke out my niggard pay.
Old Sauron bade me bring it back,
and yet, methinks, he has no lack 460
of weightier treasures in his hoard:
the greater the greedier the lord!
So mark ye, mates, ye all shall swear
the hand of Barahir was bare!'
And as he spoke an arrow sped 465
from tree behind, and forward dead
choking he fell with barb in throat;
with leering face the earth he smote.
Forth, then as wolfhound grim there leapt
Beren among them. Two he swept 470
aside with sword; caught up the ring;
slew one who grasped him; with a spring
back into shadow passed, and fled
before their yells of wrath and dread
of ambush in the valley rang.
BL-SL-01: This one of the cases were I did not take up the new storylin of Sil77. There the Orcs did ceary away not the Ring but the entire habd of Barahir with the Ring on it. There is also no hint of the betrayal that the captian planed in keeping the Ring for himself. But I could not find a easy way to work that into the poem. Since the recommeced poem and the text of LQS1 are nearly contemporary I am not sure if we could not consider this detail as left out for compression. But I am open for suggsetions in this point.

Quote:

Southward he turned, and south away
his long and lonely journey lay,
while ever loomed before his path
the dreadful peaks of Gorgorath.
Never had foot of man most bold 575
yet trod those mountains steep and cold,
nor climbed upon their sudden brink,
whence, sickened, eyes must turn and, shrink
to see their southward cliffs fall sheer
in rocky pinnacle and pier 580
down into shadows that were laid
before the sun and moon were made.
In valleys woven with deceit
and washed with waters bitter-sweet
dark magic lurked in gulf and glen; 585
but out away beyond the ken
of mortal sight the eagle's eye
from dizzy towers that pierced the sky
might grey and gleaming see afar,
as sheen on water under star, 590
Beleriand, Beleriand,
the borders of the Elven-land.

BL-EX-03<Lay; old Version BL-EX-04Then {all his}[on this] journey{'s lonely}[he did] fare,
BL-EX-05{the}[of] hunger and {the}[of] haggard care,
the awful mountains' stones he stained {565}
with blood of weary feet, and gained
only a land of ghosts, and fear
in dark ravines imprisoned sheer -
there mighty spiders wove their webs,
old creatures foul with birdlike nebs {570}
that span their traps in dizzy air,
and filled it with clinging black despair,
and there they lived, and the sucked bones
lay white beneath on the dank stones -
now all these horrors like a cloud {575}
BL-EX-06{faded from mind}[he did there find]. The waters loud
falling from pineclad heights no more
he heard, those waters grey and frore
that bittersweet he drank and filled
his mind with madness - all was stilled. {580}
He recked not BL-EX-07{now}[for] the burning road,
the paths demented where he strode
endlessly ... and ever new
horizons stretched before his view,
as each blue ridge with bleeding feet {585}
was climbed, and down he went to meet
battle with creatures old and strong
and monsters in the dark, and long,
long watches in the haunted night
while evil shapes with baleful light {590}
in clustered eyes did crawl and snuff
beneath his tree - not half enough
the price he deemed to come at last
to that pale moon when day had passed,
to those clear stars of {Elfinesse}[Elvenesse], {595}
the hearts-ease and the loveliness.>
BL-EX-03: Here I added the discription of Berens journey through the Ered Gorgorath. Tolkien did not used it the recomenced version and a point can be made that we should therfore leave it out. But I think it was scipt because it was retrospectiv and thus broke the naritive therefore I moved it this place.

BL-EX-04 to BL-EX-07: All these changes are done to get rid of the retrospectiv charachter of the pice added.

Quote:

No evil in their realm is seen;
no power their might can yet surpass:
there still is laughter and green grass, [20]
there leaves are lit by the white sun,
and many marvels are begun. 705

BL-EX-08<Lay; old Version Beren's meeting with Lúthien>

There went now in the Guarded Realm
beneath the beech, beneath the elm,
there lightfoot ran now on the green [25]
the daughter of the king and queen:
of Arda's eldest children born 710
in beauty of their elven-morn
and only child ordained by birth
to walk in raiment of the Earth [30]
from Those descended who began
before the world of Elf and Man. 715
BL-EX-08: I added the canton-headline of the old poem here as a subheading to have a smoother going over from the many subheadings of the recommeced Lay to the old Lay where we have no subheadings at all.

Quote:

Proud are the words, and all there turned
to see the jewels green that burned
in Beren's ring. These {Gnomes}[Elves] had set
as eyes of serpents twined that met
beneath a golden crown of flowers, (1100)
that one upholds and one devours:
the badge BL-RG-01{that Finrod}[Finrafin] made of yore
and Felagund his son now bore.
His anger was chilled, but little less,
and dark thoughts Thingol did possess, (1105)
though Melian the pale leant to his side
and whispered: 'O king, forgo thy pride!
Such is my counsel. Not by thee
shall Beren be slain, for far and free
from these deep halls his fate doth lead, (1110)
yet wound with thine. O king, take heed!’
BL-RG-01: Finrod must be replaced and I think the “that” can be deleated to get the right number of syllabls in the line.

Quote:
Then Thingol's warriors loud and long
they laughed; for wide renown in song
had Fëanor's gems o'er land and sea,
the peerless Silmarils; and three (1135)
alone he made and kindled slow
in the land of the Valar long ago,
BL-RG-02{and there} in {Tun}[Tirion] of their own light
they shone like marvellous stars at night,
BL-RG-03{in the great Gnomish hoards of Tun, (1140)
while Glingal flowered and Belthil's bloom
yet lit the land beyond the shore
where the Shadowy Seas' last surges roar,
ere Morgoth stole them and the Gnomes
seeking their glory left their homes,} (1145)
ere sorrows fell on Elves and Men,
ere Beren was or Lúthien,
ere Fëanor's sons in madness swore
their dreadful oath. But now no more
their beauty was seen, save shining clear (1150)
in Morgoth's dungeons vast and drear.
BL-RG-02: If Tirion is used 2 syllabls most go. “and there” seems to be the right choice.

BL-RG-03: In this couple of lines are a lot of names that we must change. To delet the complet couple seemed much easier to me. And I don’t think it breaks the narative.

Quote:

Yet long the hours when she must sit
and see the sunbeams dance and flit
in beechen leaves, or watch the stars (1410)
peep on clear nights between the bars
of beechen branches. And one night
just ere the changing of the light
a dream there came, from the BL-RG-04{Gods}[West], maybe,
or Melian's magic. She dreamed that she (1415)
heard Beren's voice o'er hill and fell
'Tinúviel' call, 'Tinúviel.'
And her heart answered: 'Let me be gone
to seek him no others think upon!'
BL-RG-04: West seems a good replacment here for the unusable Gods.

Quote:

and freedom. And all names of things
tallest and longest on earth she sings:
the locks of the Longbeard dwarves; the tail
of Draugluin the werewolf pale;
the body of {Glomund}[Glaurung] the great snake; (1490)
the vast upsoaring peaks that quake
above the fires in Angband's gloom;
the chain Angainor that ere Doom
for Morgoth shall by BL-RG-05{Gods}[force] be BL-SL-02{wrought}[brought]
{of}[with] steel and torment. Names she sought, (1495)
and sang of Glend the sword of Nan;
of Gilim the giant of Eruman;
and last and longest named she then
the endless hair of Uinen,
the Lady of the Sea, that lies (1500)
through all the waters under skies.
BL-RG-05 & BL-SL-02: Here I combined two issues. Gods mut be removed and the chain Angainor was much earlier wrought. Thus I let the chain be brought by force.

Quote:
Beren in Nargothrond

When Morgoth in that day of doom
had slain the Trees and filled with gloom (1585)
the shining land of Valinor,
there Fëanor and his sons then swore
the mighty oath upon the hill
of tower-crowned BL-RG-06{Tun}[town], that still
wrought wars and sorrow in the world. (1590)
From darkling seas the fogs unfurled
their blinding shadows grey and cold
where BL-RG-07{Glingal once }[Laurelin] had bloomed with gold ,
BL-RG-08{and Belthil}[Silpion] bore its silver flowers.
The mists were mantled round the towers (1595)
of the Elves' white city by the sea.
There countless torches fitfully
did start and twinkle, as the {Gnomes}[Elves]
were gathered to their fading homes,
and thronged the long and winding stair (1600)
that led to the wide echoing square.
BL-RG-06: An alternative line cold be:
“{of} tower-crowned {Tun}[Tuna], that still”

BL-RG-07: Once is a fill-word and I think we can skip it.

BL-RG-08: To replace the and with “,” is not very nice, but the best I could find.

Quote:

Timbrenting's holy height they name,
whereon are built the timeless halls
of Manwe Lord of BL-RG-09[Gods]{Arda}. Who calls (1625)
these names in witness may not break
his oath, though earth and heaven shake.

Curufin, Celegorm the fair,
BL-RG-10{Damrod and Diriel}[young Amrod and Amras] were there,
BL-RG-11{and Cranthir}[Caranthir] dark, and {Maidros}[Maeðros] tall (1630)
(whom after torment should befall),
and Maglor the mighty who like the sea
with deep voice sings yet mournfully.
'Be he friend or foe, or seed defiled
of Morgoth Bauglir, or mortal child (1635)
that in after days on earth shall dwell,
no law, nor love, nor league of hell,
not might of BL-RG-11.5God{s}, not moveless fate
shall him defend from wrath and hate
of Fëanor's sons, who takes or steals (1640)
or finding keeps the Silmarils,
the thrice-enchanted globes of light
that shine until the final night.'
BL-RG-09: Manwe as Lord of Arda fits the later context beter than Lord of Gods.

BL-RG-10: “Damrod and Diriel“ have on sylabble more than Amord and Amras thus I added “young“ since they are the youngest brethern.

BL-RG-11: The „and most go to give us space for Caranthir.

BL-RG-11.5: May be this is going to fare, but it was the easiest solution I did find.

Quote:

The song of Fingon Elves yet sing,
captain of armies, {Gnomish}[Elvish] king, (1655)
who fell at last in flame of swords
with his white banners and his lords.
They sing how {Maidros}[Maeðros] free he set,
and stayed the feud that slumbered yet
BL-RG-12{between the children proud of Finn}[‘twix Fëanor and Fingolfin]. (1660)
Now joined once more they hemmed him in,
even great Morgoth, and their host
beleaguered Angband, till they boast
no Orc nor demon ever dare
their leaguer break or past them fare. (1665)
BL-RG-12: Finn is no longer valid but Finwe does not rhym on “him in”. His children hav so many syllables that I culd find no better line.

Quote:

Then Barahir the bold did aid
with mighty spear, with shield and men, (1690)
Felagund wounded. To the fen
escaping, there they bound their troth,
and Felagund deeply swore an oath
of friendship to his kin and seed,
of love and succour in time of need. (1695)
BL-RG-13{But there}There of {Finrod}[Finrafin]'s children four
were Angrod slain and proud {Egnor}[Aegnor].
Felagund and Orodreth then
gathered the remnant of their men,
their maidens and their children fair; (1700)
forsaking war they made their lair
and cavernous hold far in the south.
BL-RG-13: I think the “but” as not a great loss here.

Quote:

Now Beren came unto the pools,
wide shallow meres where Sirion cools
his gathered tide beneath the stars,
ere chafed and sundered by the bars (1725)
of reedy banks a mighty fen
he feeds and drenches, plunging then
into vast chasms underground,
where many miles his way is wound.
BL-RG-14{Umboth-Muilin,}[Aelin-uial, the] Twilight Meres, (1730)
those great wide waters grey as tears
the Elves then named. Through driving rain
from thence across the Guarded Plain
the Hills of the Hunters Beren saw
with bare tops bitten bleak and raw (1735)
by western winds; but in the mist
of streaming rains that flashed and hissed
into the meres he knew there lay
beneath those hills the cloven way
of Narog, and the watchful halls (1740)
of Felagund beside the falls
of Ingwil tumbling from the wold.
BL-RG-14: I added the artcle to get the right number of syllabls.

Quote:

Lo! Celegorm and Curufin
here dwell this very realm within, (1825)
BL-RG-15 and even though I, {Finrod}[Finrafin]'s son,
am king, a mighty power here have won
and many of their own folk lead.
BL-RG-15: Is my counting at a miss or did Tolkien leave out a syllable in lines 1825 and 1827?


Friendship to me in every need
they yet have shown, but much I fear (1830)
that to Beren son of Barahir
mercy or love they will not show
if once thy dreadful quest they know.'

True words he spake. For when the king
to all his people told this thing, (1835)
and spake of the oath to Barahir,
and how that mortal shield and spear
had saved them from Morgoth and from woe
on Northern battlefields long ago,
then many were kindled in their hearts (1840)
once more to battle. But up there starts
amid the throng, and loudly cries
for hearing, one with flaming eyes,
proud Celegorm with gleaming hair
and shining sword. Then all men stare (1845)
upon his stern unyielding face,
and a great hush falls upon that place.

Quote:
'Be he friend or foe, or demon wild
of Morgoth, Elf, or mortal child,
or any that here on earth may dwell, (1850)
no law, nor love, nor league of hell,
no might of BL-RG-16God{s}, no binding spell,
shall him defend from hatred fell
of Fëanor's sons, whoso take or steal
or finding keep a Silmaril. (1855)
These we alone do claim by right,
our thrice enchanted jewels bright.'

Many wild and potent words he spoke,
and as before BL-RG-17{in Tun awoke}[on Tuna woke]
his father's voice their hearts to fire, (1860)
so now dark fear and brooding ire
he cast on them, foreboding war
of friend with friend; and pools of gore
their minds imagined lying red
in Nargothrond about the dead, (1865)
did Narog's host with Beren go;
or haply battle, ruin, and woe
in Doriath where great Thingol reigned,
if Fëanor's fatal jewel he gained.
BL-RG-16: This must go conform with BL-RG-11.5 above.

BL-RG-17: Here I changed the city to the hill (simply moving the ”a“ from the verb). Please do not hesitate to reject this, if you find it hard to understand where the reference now lead to.

Quote:
So would they not that angry day
King Felagund their lord obey, (1895)
but sullen murmured that Finrod
nor yet his BL-SL-03{son}[kin] were as a god.
Then Felagund took off his crown
and at his feet he cast it down,
the silver helm of Nargothrond: (1900)
'Yours ye may break, but I my bond
must keep, and kingdom here forsake.
If hearts here were that did not quake,
BL-RG-18{or }that to {Finrod}[Finrafin]'s son were true,
then I at least should find a few (1905)
to go with me, not like a poor
rejected beggar scorn endure,
turned from my gates to leave my town,
my people, and my realm and crown!'

Hearing these words there swiftly stood (1910)
beside him ten tried warriors good,
men of his house who had ever fought
wherever his banners had been brought.
BL-EX-09{One stooped and }[Edrahil] lifted up his crown,
and said: 'O king, to leave this town (1915)
is now our fate, but not to lose
thy rightful lordship. Thou shalt choose
one to be steward in thy stead.'
Then Felagund upon the head
of Orodreth set it: 'BL-SL-04{Brother}[Neff of] mine, (1920)
till I return this crown is thine.'
Then Celegorm no more would stay,
and Curufin smiled and turned away.
BL-EX-10<GA But to them Felagund did tell:
'
{But this }I {will }say to{ you, Celegorn}[Celegorm] the fell,
by {the }sight that is me given {me}to
in this dark hour, that neither thou
nor any other son of Fëanor
shall regain from now to ever more
the Silmarils{ ever unto world's end}. And so this that
we{ now} seek shall come indeed, your grab
it ever will aloud
{but never to your hands}. {Nay, your}Your oath {shall}will
devour you, {and deliver} to other keeping fill
the bride-price of fair Lúthien.'>
BL-SL-03: Here I circumvented a change from Finrod to Finrafin. But if someone coud find a beter solution I would be hapier with it, since we could then try to remove “god” as well.

BL-RG-18: I hope the sense will be understood without that “or“.

BL-EX-09: I wanted to include the name Edrahil and the line is the best solution I could find.

BL-SL-04: Orodreth is no longer Felagunds brother so I changed his status.

BL-EX-10: This is clearly the most difficult of the changes I did. I wanted the answer of Fleagund to the brethern included, but it is not urgend enough to break the poem with this prose fragment. (In the case of the prose fragments introduced into the Lay of Childern of Húrin it is quiet diffrent since there we only took up fragments from the Lay, but here it is as far as it goes the basic text.) I am sure that my lines can be bettered very much in a group efford, the question is thus do take that liberty and reform a prose fragment into a poem?

Quote:
Now in that hill was the abode
of one most evil; and the road
that from Beleriand thither came
he watched with sleepless eyes of flame. (2055)
(From the North there led no other way,
save east where the Gorge of Aglon lay,
and that dark path of hurrying dread
which only in need the Orcs would tread
through Deadly Nightshade's awful gloom (2060)
where {Taur-na-Fuin}[Taur-nu-Fuin]'s branches loom;
and Aglon led to Doriath,
and Fëanor's sons watched o'er that path.)

{Gnomes}[Elves] called him BL-RG-19{Gorthu}[Sauron], as a god
in after days beneath his rod (2065)
bewildered Men bowed to him, and made
his ghastly temples in the shade.
Not yet by Men enthralled adored,
now was he Morgoth's mightiest lord,
Master of Wolves, whose shivering howl (2070)
for ever echoed in the hills, and foul
enchantments and dark sigaldry
did weave and wield. In glamoury
BL-RG-19: Here is the first and easy case of Gorthu -> Sauron. It will become harder.

Quote:
'Go! fetch me those sneaking Orcs,' he said,
'that fare thus strangely, as if in dread, (2085)
and do not come, as all Orcs use
and are commanded, to bring me newsBL-RG-20{
of all their deeds, to me, to Gorthu}.'

{From his tower he gazed, and}[And] in him grew{
suspicion and} a brooding thought, (2090)
waiting, leering, till they were brought.
BL-RG-20: Since Gorthu is in the rhym I could find no beter solution than skiping the couple.

Quote:
'Wrath and Hate and warriors ten,
so we are called, and dark our den
under the mountains. Over the waste
we march on an errand of need and haste.
Boldog the captain awaits us there (2125)
where fires from under smoke and flare.'

'Boldog, I heard, was lately slain[
strange ye were not in Boldog's train.
Thirty are slain by twelve you claim,]
warring on the borders of that domain
where Robber Thingol and outlaw folk
cringe and crawl beneath elm and oak (2130)
in drear Doriath. Heard ye not then
of that pretty fay, of Lúthien?
Her body is fair, very white and fair.
Morgoth would possess her in his lair.
BL-SL-05{Boldog he sent, but Boldog was slain: (2135)
strange ye were not in Boldog's train.}
Fierce is your chief, his frown is grim.
Little Lúthien! What troubles him?
Why laughs he not to think of his lord
crushing a maiden in his hoard, (2140)
that foul should be what once was clean,
that dark should be where light has been?
BL-SL-05: Boldog could still be an Orc-captian slain recently on the broderfights with Doriath. From the later time of Túrin one gets the impression that at Dimbar the forces of Doritah did fight al the time since ths Fall of Dorthonion and Tol Sirion. Thus I only skiped the reference to Boldogs special mission to fetch Lúthien for Morogth, which was clearly removed.

Quote:
But no true Man nor Elf yet free
Would ever speak that blasphemy, (2160)
And Beren muttered: 'BL-RG-21{Doth Gorthu}[Who are thou]
{now}[to] hinder work that is to do?
Him we serve not, nor to him owe
obeisance, and we now would go.'[/Qoute] BL-RG-21: This is in part a going back to the old version of the Lay were the lines read:
“And Beren muttered: 'Who is Thu
to hinder work that is to do?”
The following lines may build a problem since we removed the object for “him”.

[Qoute]Yet not all unavailing were (2215)
BL-RG-22the spells{ of Felagund; Gorthu}[; for thus Sauron did now]
neither their names nor purpose {knew}[know].
These much he pondered and bethought,
and in their woeful chains them sought,
and threatened all with dreadful death, (2220)
if one would not with traitor's breath
BL-RG-22: We need to name Sauron here since otherwise the rest of the § becomes obscure. The solution shown is the best I could find, but it is not good.

Quote:
Lúthien in Nargothrond

Hounds there were in Valinor
with silver collars. Hart and boar,
the fox and hare and nimble roe (2240)
there in the forests green did go.
Orome was the lord divine
of all those woods. The potent wine
went in his halls and hunting song.
The Gnomes anew have named him long (2245)
Tavros, the BL-RG-23{God}[Great] whose horns did blow
over the mountains long ago;
who alone of BL-RG-24{Gods had}[Valar] loved the world
before the banners were unfurled
of Moon and Sun; and shod with gold (2250)
were his great horses. Hounds untold
baying in woods beyond the West
of race immortal he possessed:
BL-RG-23: It might be that “Greats” is to obscure here, so I would be happ if someone could find a better solution.

BL-RG-24: I think it is possible here to skip “had” to get space for “Valar”. But the sentence still reads strange.

Quote:
In Tavros' friths and pastures green
had Huan once a young whelp been. (2265)
He grew the swiftest of the swift,
and Orome gave him as a gift
to Celegorm, who loved to follow
the BL-RG-25{great God}[Hunter]'s horn o'er hill and hollow.
Alone of hounds of the Land of Light, (2270)
when sons of Fëanor took to flight
and came into the North, he stayed
beside his master. Every raid
BL-RG-25: I am not even sure if Ororme is still one of the “great Gods” but any way “Hunter” seems a fitting discription for him.

Quote:
he knew. But wolves, he loved them best;
he loved to find their throats and wrest (2285)
their snarling lives and evil breath.
BL-RG-26[Sauron’s]{The} packs {of Thu}[thus] him feared as Death.
No wizardry, nor spell, nor dart,
no fang, nor venom devil's art
could brew had harmed him; for his weird (2290)
was woven. Yet he little feared
BL-RG-26: The changed order provides a syllable less thus I added the “thus”.

Quote:
…have loosed their dogs? With merry din
they mounted ere the sun arose,
and took their spears and took their bows. (2305)
BL-RG-27 [Sauron’s great]{The} wolves {of Thu} of late have dared
both far and wide. Their eyes have glared
by night across the roaring stream
of Narog. Doth their master dream,
BL-RG-27: The changed order provides a syllable less and here I added the adjetive “great”.

Quote:
Three days they ride by holt and hill
BL-RG-28 [Sauron’s great]{the} wolves {of Thu} to hunt and kill,
and many a head and fell of grey
they take, and many drive away, (2345)
till nigh to the borders in the West
of Doriath a while they rest.
BL-RG-28: The changed order provides a syllable less and here I added again the adjetive “great” as in BL-RG-27.

Quote:
To Celegorm said Curufin
apart and low: 'Now news we win
of Felagund, and now we know (2450)
BL-RG-29 {wherefore Thu's}[why Sauron’s] creatures prowling go',
and other whispered counsels spake,
and showed him what answer he should make.
BL-RG-29: I replaced “wherfore” by “why” to get the space for Sauron.

Quote:
It was not hid in Nargothrond
that Fëanor's sons her held in bond,
who Beren heeded not, and who
had little cause to wrest from BL-RG-30 {Thu}[woe] (2495)
the king they loved not and whose quest
old vows of hatred in their breast
had roused from sleep. Orodreth knew
BL-RG-30: “who” “woe” does not rhym very well. I would be happy to see a better idea.

Quote:
'A! Beren, Beren hast not learned
that promises of Morgoth's folk
are frail as breath. From this dark yoke
of pain shall neither ever go,
whether he learn our names or no, (2585)
with BL-RG-31 {Thu’s}[his] consent. Nay more, I think
yet deeper of torment we should drink,
knew he that son of Barahir
and Felagund were captive here,
and even worse if he should know (2590)
the dreadful errand we did go.'
BL-RG-31: The refrence is here changed from Sauron to Morgoth, but I think that can be done without much harm.

Quote:
BL-RG-32 {Thu}[Sauron] heard that voice, {and }sudden stood
wrapped in his cloak and sable hood
in his high tower. He listened long,
and smiled, and knew that elvish song.
BL-RG-32: Can we live without that “and”?

Quote:

A mightier shadow slowly filled
the narrow bridge, a slavering hate, (2710)
an awful werewolf fierce and great:
pale Draugluin, the old grey lord
of wolves and beasts of blood abhorred,
that fed on flesh of Man and Elf
beneath the chair of BL-RG-33 {Thu himself}[Sauron self]. (2715)
No more in silence did they fight.
Howling and baying smote the night,
till back by the chair where he had fed
to die the werewolf yammering fled.
'Huan is there' he gasped and died, (2720)
BL-RG-34 {and Thu}[Sauron] was filled with wrath and pride.
'Before the mightiest he shall fall,
before the mightiest wolf of all',
so thought he now, and thought he knew
how fate long spoken should come true. (2725)

Now there came slowly forth and glared
into the night a shape long-haired,
dank with poison, with awful eyes
wolvish, ravenous; but there lies
a light therein more cruel and dread (2730)
than ever wolvish eyes had fed.
More huge were its limbs, its jaws more wide,
its fangs more gleaming-sharp, and dyed
with venom, torment, and with death.
The deadly vapour of its breath (2735)
swept on before it. Swooning dies
the song of Lúthien, and her eyes
are dimmed and darkened with a fear,
cold and poisonous and drear.

BL-RG-35 [Sauron]{Thus} came{ Thu}, as wolf more great (2740)
than e'er was seen from Angband's gate
to the burning south, than ever lurked
in mortal lands or murder worked.
Sudden he sprang, and Huan leaped
aside in shadow. On he swept (2745)
to Lúthien lying swooning faint.
To her drowning senses came the taint
of his foul breathing, and she stirred;
dizzily she spake a whispered word,
her mantle brushed across his face. (2750)
He stumbled staggering in his pace.
Out leaped Huan. Back he sprang.
Beneath the stars there shuddering rang
the cry of hunting wolves at bay,
the tongue of hounds that fearless slay. (2755)
Backward and forth they leaped and ran
feinting to flee, and round they span,
and bit and grappled, and fell and rose.
Then suddenly Huan holds and throws
his ghastly foe; his throat he rends, (2760)
choking his life. Not so it ends.
From shape to shape, from wolf to worm,
from monster to his own demon form,
BL-RG-36 {Thu}[he] changes, but that desperate grip
he cannot shake, nor from it slip. (2765)
No wizardry, nor spell, nor dart,
no fang, nor venom, nor devil's art
could harm that hound that hart and boar
had hunted once in Valinor.
BL-RG-33: I am not sure if this is good, but therefore we make this as group.

BL-RG-34: Here we can go without the “and”.

BL-RG-35: Is this going without the “thus”? I think it is.

BL-RG-36: It is long since Suaron was named, but from the fight it seemed clear to me to whom the reference is.

Quote:
A vampire shape with pinions vast
screeching leaped from the ground, and passed,
its dark blood dripping on the trees;
and Huan neath him lifeless sees
a wolvish corpse – BL-RG-37 {for Thu}[Sauron] had flown (2820)
to {Taur-na-Fuin}[Taur-nu-Fuin], a new throne
and darker stronghold there to build.
BL-RG-37: It will go here without the “for”.
But some other interesiting question: since he left behind the “wolvish corpse” had Sauron given up for a moment his incarnation just to build himself a new body at once? If that’s true then why didn’t he do that before he gave Lúthien the “password”?

[quote]The shadows fell from mountains grim.
Then sprang about the darkened North (3130)
the Sickle of the BL-RG-38 {Gods}[North], and forth
each star there stared in stony night
radiant, glistering cold and white.
…[quote] BL-RG-34: A bit to much North in this lines but I could not find any better solution.

Quote:

'Good steed of master ill,' he said,
'farewell now here! Lift up thy head,
and get thee gone to Sirion's vale,
back as we came, past island pale
where BL-RG-39 {Thu once}[Sauron] reigned, to waters sweet (3290)
and grasses long about thy feet.
And if Curufin no more thou find,
grieve not! but free with hart and hind
BL-RG-39: The “once” is nice but it must go.

Quote:
Thus back to him came Lúthien:
they met beyond the ways of Men;
upon the brink of terror stood
between the desert and the wood. (3365)

BL-SL-06 He looked on her, her lifted face
beneath his lips in sweet embrace:
'Thrice now mine oath I curse,' he said,
'that under shadow thee hath led!
But where is Huan, where the hound (3370)
to whom I trusted, whom I bound
by love of thee to keep thee well
from deadly wandering unto hell?'

'I know not! But good Huan's heart
is wiser, kinder than thou art, (3375)
grim lord, more open unto prayer!
Yet long and long I pleaded there,
until he brought me, as I would,
upon thy trail - a palfrey good
would Huan make, of flowing pace: (3380)
thou wouldst have laughed to see us race,
as Orc on werewolf ride like fire
night after night through fen and mire,
through waste and wood! But when I heard
thy singing clear - (yea, every word (3385)
of Lúthien one rashly cried,
and listening evil fierce defied) -,
he set me down, and sped away;
but what he would I cannot say.'

Ere long they knew, for Huan came, (3390)
his great breath panting, eyes like flame,
in fear lest her whom he forsook
to aid some hunting evil took
ere he was nigh. Now there he laid
before their feet, as dark as shade, (3395)
two grisly shapes that he had won
from that tall isle in Sirion:
a wolfhame huge - its savage fell
was long and matted, dark the spell
that drenched the dreadful coat and skin, (3400)
the werewolf cloak of Draugluin;
the other was a batlike garb
with mighty fingered wings, a barb
like iron nail at each joint's end -
such wings as their dark cloud extend (3405)
against the moon, when in the sky
from Deadly Nightshade screeching fly
BL-RG-40 {Thu's messengers}[Sauron’s herald].

What hast thou brought,
good Huan? What thy hidden thought?
Of trophy of prowess and strong deed, (3410)
when BL-RG-41 {Thu thou}[Sauron] {vanquishedst}[vanquished], what need
here in the waste?' Thus Beren spoke,
and once more words in Huan woke:
his voice was like the deeptoned bells
that ring in Valmar's citadels: (3415)
'Of one fair gem thou must be thief,
Morgoth's or Thingol's, loath or lief;
thou must here choose twixt love and oath!
If vow to break is still thee loath,
then Lúthien must either die (3420)
alone, or death with thee defie
beside thee, marching on your fate
that hidden before you lies in wait.
Hopeless the quest, but not yet mad,
unless thou, Beren, run thus clad (3425)
in mortal raiment, mortal hue,
witless and redeless, death to woo.
'Lo! good was Felagund's device,
but may be bettered, if advice
of Huan ye will dare to take, (3430)
and swift a hideous change will make
to forms most cursed, foul and vile,
of werewolf of the Wizard's Isle,
of monstrous bat's envermined fell
with ghostly clawlike wings of hell. (3435)
'To such dark straits, alas! now brought
are ye I love, for whom I fought.
Nor further with you can I go -
whoever did a great hound know
in friendship at a werewolf's side (3440)
to Angband's grinning portals stride?
Yet my heart tells that at the gate
what there ye find, 'twill be my fate
myself to see, though to that door
my feet shall bear me nevermore. (3445)
Darkened is hope and dimmed my eyes,
I see not clear what further lies;
yet maybe backwards leads your path
beyond all hope to Doriath,
and thither, perchance, we three shall wend, (3450)
and meet again before the end.'
BL-SL-06: In Sil77 Huan and Lúthien are clad in the wolveham and the batskirt when they meet Beren. If we must follow this we must find some satisfactional way to incooperat the new story into the poem. That does not seem impossible for me but I did not jet try it.

BL-RG-40: “Herald” was the best replacment I could find that is shorter than “messanger”.

BL-RG-41: I did not like “Thou Thu” from the start. Thus “Sauron” serves us well her.

Quote:

Come forth, O monstrous craven lord,
and fight with thine own hand and sword,
thou wielder of hosts of banded thralls,
thou tyrant leaguered with strong walls, (3555)
thou foe of BL-RG-42 God{s} and elvish race!
I wait thee here. Come! Show thy face!'
BL-RG-42: I thnik we could name Morgoth the foe of God – meaning Iluvatar. But If someone has a better idea, I would be happy to discus it.

Quote:
Then came word (3665)
most passing strange of Lúthien
wild-wandering by wood and glen,
and Thingol's purpose long he weighed,
and wondered, thinking of that maid.
BL-SL-07{so fair, so frail. A captain dire, (3670)
Boldog, he sent with sword and fire
to Doriath's march; but battle fell
sudden upon him: news to tell
never one returned of Boldog's host,
and Thingol humbled Morgoth's boast.} (3675)
Then his heart with doubt and wrath was burned:
new tidings of dismay he learned,
BL-RG-43{how Thu was }[of Sauron] o'erthrown and his strong isle
broken and plundered, how with guile
his foes now guile beset; and spies (3680)
he feared, till each Orc to his eyes
was half suspect. Still ever down
the aisled forests came renown
of Huan baying, hound of war
that BL-RG-44{Gods unleashed}[once he knew] in Valinor. (3685)
BL-SL-07: We remove here the raid of Boldog as Tolkien had done in Sil77.

BL-RG-43: The “how” is much better since it corosponds to the other tidings, but that’s what I could do.

BL-RG-44: I changed the meaning to get rid of “Gods”. It might be that this is going beyond the boundary.

Quote:
'Who art thou, hungry upstart whelp,
to bar my ways whom thou shouldst help?
BL-RG-45I fare with hasty tidings {new}[bright] (3770)
{to Morgoth }from[ Sauron’s] forest-haunting {Thu}[might].
Aside! for I must in; or go
and swift my coming tell below!'
BL-RG-45: Since “Thu” is here in the rhyming couple again we must find some replacment in both lines.

Quote:

A nameless doubt, a shapeless fear,
had entered in their caverns drear,
and grew, and towered above them cowed, (3920)
hearing in heart the trumpets loud
of BL-RG-46{gods}[doom] forgotten. Morgoth spoke,
and thunderous the silence broke:
'Shadow, descend! And do not think
to cheat mine eyes! In vain to shrink (3925)
from thy Lord's gaze, or seek to hide.
BL-RG-46: “gods” must go even if it is here not capitalised. “forgotten doom” seems to fit well with the sence.

Quote:
'Thy name, thou shrieking waif, thy name! (3950)
Tidings enough from BL-RG-47{Thu there}[Sauron] came
but short while since. What would he now?
Why send such messenger as thou?'
'Thuringwethil BL-EX-11 [Footnote: sc. she of hidden shadow] I am, who cast
a shadow o'er the face aghast (3955)
of the sallow moon in the doomed land
of shivering Beleriand.'
BL-RG-47: It is nice that Tolkien provide the fill-word “there”.

BL-EX-11: I know that footnotes are not popular in this project, but this one is worth I try.

Quote:

are at my call. Yet I will give
a respite brief, a while to live, (4025)
a little while, though purchased dear,
to Lúthien the fair and clear,
a pretty toy for idle hour.
BL-RG-48 In slothful gardens many a flower
like thee the amorous gods are used (4030)
honey-sweet to kiss, and cast then bruised,
their fragrance loosing, under feet.
But here we seldom find such sweet
amid our labours long and hard,
from godlike idleness debarred. (4035)
And who would not taste the honey-sweet
lying to lips, or crush with feet
the soft cool tissue of pale flowers,
easing like gods the dragging hours?
A! curse the Gods! O hunger dire, (4040)
O blinding thirst's unending fire!
One moment shall ye cease, and slake
your sting with morsel I here take!'
BL-RG-48: I have left “Gods” stand in Morgoth talk. I think it fit well for him to call his pears Gods so that he as the mightiest of them is a God himself. Also it would fit his desire to conceal the knowledge of Eru from the children of Eru to name himself and his pears God.

Quote:
Against the wall then Beren reeled
but still with his left he sought to shield
fair Lúthien, who cried aloud
to see his pain, and down she bowed
in anguish sinking to the ground.

*

BL-SL-08<LQS 25 The Quest of the Silmaril 2

Then swiftly all {his}Carcharoth’s inwards were filled with a flame of anguish, and the Silmaril seared his accursed flesh. Howling he fled before them, and the walls of the valley of the Gate echoes with the clamour of his torment. …
BL-SL-08: Here the Laycomes to an end. We take as a basis for our further text The Later Ouenta Silmarillion. We take up the narativ with the chapter-heading that preceded the place we jump in. Charcharoth is in the prose version named in the sentce before so we must replace the “his” here.

Quote:
In that time Thingol turned to Melian; but now she withheld her counsel from him, saying that the doom that he had devised must work to its appointed end, and that he must wait now upon time. But Thingol learned that Lúthien had journeyed far from Doriath, for messages came secretly from Celegorm, as has been told, saying that Felagund was dead, and Beren was dead, BL-EX-12{but Lúthien was in Nargothrond, and that Celegorm would wed her.} and <Lay; Synopsis V that Celegorm {will}would make himself king of Narog, and while telling him that Lúthien {is}was safe in Nargothrond and treating for her hand, {hints}hinted that she {will}would not return: it also {warns}warned him to trouble not the matter of the Silmarils.> Then Thingol was wrathful, BL-EX-13<Lay; Synopsis V and is moved to think better of Beren, while yet blaming {[}him{]} for the woes that followed his coming to Doriath, and most for the loss of {Dairon}[Daeron].> {and}And he sent forth spies, thinking to make war upon Nargothrond. But BL-EX-14<Lay; Synopsis V Melian {says}said she would forbid this evil war of Elf with Elf, but that never shall Thingol cross blade with Celegorm.> BL-EX-15<Lay; Synopsis V Beleg was the chief of his scouts.> BL-EX-16<Lay; Synopsis V {Beleg goes}He went forth from the camp on Doriath's borders and {journeys}journeyed, unseen by the archers, to Narog.>{; and thus he}Thus Thingol learned that Lúthien was again fled, and that Celegorm and Curufin were driven from Nargothrond. Then his counsel was in doubt, for he had not the strength to assail BL-RG-49 [all ]the{ seven} sons of Fëanor; but he sent messengers to Himring to summon their aid in seeking for Lúthien, since Celegorm had not sent her to the house of her father, nor had he kept her safely.
BL-EX-12 to BL-EX-16: In parts Synopsis V is even as elaborted as the naritiv of Sil77, thus I think we should fetch some deatisl otherwise lost.

BL-RG-49: Well, Amras who is number seven, is already burned to death.

Quote:
Even in that dark hour Beren and Lúthien returned, hastening from the west, and the news of their coming went before them like a sound of music borne by the wind into dark houses where men sit sorrowful. They came at last to the gates of Menegroth, and a great host followed them. Then Beren led Lúthien before the throne of Thingol her father; and he looked in wonder upon Beren, whom he had thought dead; but he loved him not, because of the woes that he had brought upon Doriath. But Beren knelt before him, and said: 'I return according to my word. I am come now to claim my own.'
And Thingol answered: 'What of your quest, and of your vow?'
But Beren said: 'It is fulfilled. Even now a Silmaril is in my hand.'
Then Thingol said: 'Show it to me!'
BL-EX-16.3{And}<Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 ‘My handholds the jewel’, and> Beren put forth his left hand, slowly opening its fingers; but it was empty. BL-EX-16.5<Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 ‘Alas!’ said Beren, ‘it is in the other hand, but that is not here.’> Then he held up his right arm; and from that hour he named himself Camlost, the Empty-handed.
Then Thingol's mood was softened; and Beren sat before his throne upon the left, and Lúthien upon the right, and they told all the tale of the Quest, while all there listened and were filled with amazement. And it seemed to Thingol that this Man was unlike all other mortal Men, BL-EX-17<GAand among the great in Arda,> and the love of Lúthien a thing new and strange; and he perceived that their doom might not be withstood by any power of the world. Therefore at the last he yielded his will, and Beren took the hand of Lúthien before the throne of her father.
BL-EX-16.3 & BL-EX-16.5: This gives an combined version from the [B]Quenta and the GA and Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 is late indeed (1967-70). So it should be taken. Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 was published after I made post in the privat forum thus these changes are new.

BL-EX-17: I followed Christopher Tolkiesn lead here.

Quote:
Mablung and Beleg came hastening to the King's aid, but when they looked upon what was done they cast aside their spears and wept. Then Mablung took a knife and ripped up the belly of the Wolf; and within he was well nigh all consumed as with a fire, but the hand of Beren that held the jewel was yet incorrupt. But when Mablung BL-EX-18{reached forth to touch it, the hand was no more,}< Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 took the Silmaril from the belly of Carcharoth the hand of Beren and jewel seemed to have so great a weight that Mablung's own hand was dragged earthward and forced open, letting the other fall to the ground. It was said that Mablung's name ('with weighted hand') was prophetic; but it may have been a title derived from the episode that afterwards became the one that the hero was chiefly remembered by in legend. > {and}And when the Silmaril lay there unveiled{, and} the light of it filled the shadows of the forest all about hem. Then quickly and in fear Mablung took it and set it in Beren's living hand; and Beren was aroused by the touch of the Silmaril, and held it aloft, and bade Thingol receive it. 'Now is the Quest achieved,' he said, 'and my doom full-wrought'; and he spoke no more

26 The Song of Lúthien in Mandos

They bore back Beren Camlost son of Barahir upon a bier of branches with Huan the wolfhound at his side; and night fell ere they returned to Menegroth. At the feet of Hírilorn the great beech Lúthien met them walking slow, and some bore torches beside the bier. There she set her arms about Beren, and kissed him bidding him await her beyond the Western Sea; and he looked upon her eyes ere the spirit left him. But the starlight was quenched and darkness had fallen even upon Lúthien Tinúviel. Thus ended the Quest of the Silmaril; but the Lay of Leithian, Release form Bondage does not end.
For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Lúthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return. But the spirit of Lúthien fell down into darkness, and at the last it fled, and her body lay like a flower that is suddenly cut off and lies for a while unwithered on the grass.
Then a winter, as it were the hoar age of mortal Men, fell upon Thingol.> BL-EX-19<editorial bridge In the Lay it is told:>

Where the forest-stream went through the wood,
and silent all the stems there stood
of tall trees, moveless, hanging dark
with mottled shadows on their bark
above the green and gleaming river, [5]
there came through leaves a sudden shiver,
a windy whisper through the still
cool silences; and down the hill,
as faint as a deep sleeper's breath,
an echo came as cold as death: [10]
'Long are the paths, of shadow made
where no foot's print is ever laid,
over the hills, across the seas!
Far, far away are the Lands of Ease,
but the Land of the Lost is further yet, [15]
where the Dead wait, while ye forget.
No moon is there, no voice, no sound
of beating heart; a sigh profound
once in each age as each age dies
alone is heard. Far, far it lies, [20]
the Land of Waiting where the Dead sit,
in their thought's shadow, by no moon lit.'

<LQS {But}Thus Lúthien came to the halls of Mandos, where are the appointed places of the Eldalië, beyond the mansions of the West upon the confines of the world. There those that wait sit in the shadow of their thought. But her beauty was more than their beauty, and her sorrow deeper than their sorrows; and she knelt before Mandos and sang to him.
BL-EX-18: The essay quoted in the commentary to Q30 is Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals from 1967 to 1970 given in VT47, then the story given there is newer then the one given in LQS, and we should take it.

BL-EX-19: Here we have a last stance of the poem, and I think this is the right place for it.

Quote:
It is said that Beren and Lúthien returned to the northern lands of Middle-earth, and dwelt together for a time as living man and woman; BL-EX-20{for taking}and they took up again their mortal form in Doriath. BL-EX-21<GA Those that saw them were both glad and fearful; and Lúthien went to Menegroth and healed the winter of Thingol with the touch of her hand. But Melian looked in her eyes and read the doom that was written there, and turned away; for she knew that a parting beyond the end of the world had come between them, and no grief of loss has been heavier than the grief of Melian the Maia in that hour.> {they}Then Beren and Lúthien went forth alone, fearing neither thirst nor hunger; and they passed beyond the rivers into Ossiriand, and abode there in the green isle, Tol Galen, in the midst of Adurant, until all tidings of them ceased. There for the {Noldor}[Eldar] afterwards called that country {Gyrth-I-Guinar}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the country of the Dead that Live BL-EX-22<GA ; and there was born{In this year was the birth of} Dior Aranel the Beautiful{ in Gwerth-i-Guinar}, who was after known as Dior BL-EX-23<Sil77 Eluchíl, which is> Thingol's heir, father of the Halfelven.> {and no}No mortal man spoke ever again with Beren son of Barahir; and whether the second span of his life was brief or long is not known to Elves or Men, for none saw Beren or Lúthien leave the world or marked where at last their bodies lay.>
BL-EX-20 to BL-EX-23: In all this additions I followed Christopher Tolkiens lead. The only one were we have no source information is BL-EX-23. But from its content it seemed a editorial phrase based on The Problem of Ros.

That’s it for the moment. Please feel free to disagree with me in any point that is not to your liking.

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Old 03-08-2006, 11:31 AM   #2
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During a rereading of the poem I found one additional line that needs our attention:
Quote:
...
Mayhap the Lord Tauros from his gate
BL-RG-00.5 and tree-propped halls, {the forest-god}[the lover of wood],
rides his great stallion golden-shod
...
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Old 03-10-2006, 11:22 AM   #3
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BL-EX-18 I found my reading a bit stocky. What about this:
Quote:
Mablung and Beleg came hastening to the King's aid, but when they looked upon what was done they cast aside their spears and wept. Then Mablung took a knife and ripped up the belly of the Wolf; and within he was well nigh all consumed as with a fire, but the hand of Beren that held the jewel was yet incorrupt. BL-EX-18 <Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 Mablung took out Beren's right hand - his kamba, still holding the Silmaril and by its protection unmortified and clean. But to his surprise the hand and jewel seemed to have so great a weight that Mablung's own hand was dragged earthward and forced open, letting the other fall to the ground. It was said that Mablung's name ('with weighted hand') was prophetic; but it may have been a title derived from the episode that afterwards became the one that the hero was chiefly remembered by in legend. > But when Mablung reached forth to touch it, the hand was no more, and the Silmaril lay there unveiled, and the light of it filled the shadows of the forest all about them. Then quickly and in fear Mablung took it and set it in Beren's living hand; and Beren was aroused by the touch of the Silmaril, and held it aloft, and bade Thingol receive it. 'Now is the Quest achieved,' he said, 'and my doom full-wrought'; and he spoke no more.
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Old 04-01-2006, 05:15 PM   #4
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I must apologize (again) for being so slow with this. Here, finally, are some comments (up to BL-EX-10).

BL-SL-01: The absence from LQ of the Orc-leader’s intention to betray Sauron and take the ring seems very probably due to compression. If I recall correctly, that feature was already present in the original version of the Lay, and yet is absent from other earlier accounts.
The matter of whether the Orcs took the whole hand of Barahir or just the ring is an interesting one. I could imagine that the fact that they took the whole hand is simply omitted from the Lay, not rejected. But even if there were a definite disagreement between the two texts, we would have no way of determining priority – in such a case, I think I’d go with the Lay. Actually, it strikes me that, as a general principle, we might want to give priority to the later version of the Lay over LQ, since by this point much of the work on LQ was merely copying QS.

BL-EX-03: This needs a bit of thought. As much as I like the passage, I am really quite hesitant to include it, since Tolkien left it out of the revised version. I can think of a possible motivation for this removal – it is said in QS (as found in the ’77) that Beren “spoke of it [the journey] to no one after, lest the horror lest the horror return into his mind; and none know how he found a way, and so came by paths that no Man or Elf else ever dared to tread to the borders of Doriath”. I need to think about this further, but for the moment I must say I’m inclined not to re-introduce the passage.

BL-EX-04:If we do include it, we might want to say “did he” rather than “he did”. The metrical “did” is not good, and Tolkien went to great lengths to excise it from the revision, which is perhaps another reason we shouldn’t include this bit.

BL-EX-06:
Quote:
now all these horrors like a cloud {575}
BL-EX-06{faded from mind}[he did there find]. The waters loud
This doesn’t work – “like a cloud” describes the horrors fading from his mind. I cannot think of a solution at the moment, though I’m not inclined to try overly hard, as I don’t think we should include this passage anyway.

BL-EX-07: I think this should be “recked not {now}[of] the burning road”.

BL-RG-00.5: What about:
Quote:
BL-RG-00.5 and tree-propped halls, the forest-{god}[lord],
rides his great stallion golden-shod
Also, I believe there was a change Tauros > Tauron. I will have to check, though – I can’t recall where it might be found.

BL-RG-02: Removing “and there” leaves an ungrammatical sentence. But we could simply change the comma to a semi-colon:

Quote:
in the land of the Valar long ago{,}[;]
BL-RG-02{and there} in {Tun}[Tirion] of their own light
they shone like marvellous stars at night,
BL-RG-05: I like the idea here, but I don’t think the sense is entirely clear once “Gods” is removed (Who is bringing the chain? Where are they bringing it?) Perhaps:

Quote:
for Morgoth shall BL-RG-05{by Gods}[with force] be BL-SL-02{wrought}[brought]
{of}[with] steel and torment. Names she sought,
BL-RG-06: Findegil wrote:
Quote:
An alternative line cold be:
“{of} tower-crowned {Tun}[Tuna], that still”
Well – not if “crowned” is supposed to be pronounced as two syllables, as it seems to be in the original.

In the line:
Quote:
of tower-crowned BL-RG-06{Tun}[town], that still
. . . there seems to be a missing article. We might make it:

Quote:
of [the] tower-crowned BL-RG-06{Tun}[town], that still
BL-RG-08: I think we can keep the “and”; the second and third syllables of “Silpion” are short enough to allow it.

BL-RG-09: I think the extra syllable might be a problem here. A shorter replacement for “Lord of Gods” would be good, though I can’t think of one at the moment.

BL-RG-09: I’m not entirely sure the extra syllable is needed, but I think it works.

BL-RG-11.5: I’m unsure about this; it would be good to try to find an alternative.

BL-RG-12: I think your line is excellent. But I think you meant “’twixt” with a “t” on the end.

BL-RG-15:
Quote:
Is my counting at a miss or did Tolkien leave out a syllable in lines 1825 and 1827?
Though Tolkien calls the form “octosyllabic couplets”, I am very much of the opinion that it is really what would be better called “iambic tetrameter”. What is really fixed, I think, is the sense of four “feet” per line, not the number of syllables. But in the cases of lines 1825 and 1827, I think it’s a moot point – by my count, there are eight syllables in each of those lines (nine in 1827, if one pronounces “power” as two syllables). So I see no need to make any metrical changes.

BL-RG-17: I think this is fine. “Tuna” is, after all, really a later form of “Tun”, despite the fact that its significance was slightly changed.

BL-SL-03: I agree that a better solution should be sought here, though I cannot provide one at the moment.

BL-EX-09: This is a little clunky. I wonder whether it’s really necessary to introduce the name ‘Edrahil’ (though I agree that, all else being equal, it would be good to do).

BL-SL-04: What about merely making it:
Quote:
of Orodreth set it: 'BL-SL-04{Brother}[Nephew] mine, (1920)
BL-EX-10: I need to look at this some more and see if I can come up with something better. But if we have too much trouble with it, we should just omit it.
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Old 04-03-2006, 02:50 PM   #5
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BL-SL-01: I think the hand was removed because of the development in the Lay that the Ork wanted to keep the Ring for himself. With the hand brought to Sauron he could not so easily lie that it was bar (normally you would see a mark of a ring at the finger, especially with a man living all times out side).

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Actually, it strikes me that, as a general principle, we might want to give priority to the later version of the Lay over LQ, since by this point much of the work on LQ was merely copying QS.
Agreed.

BL-Ex-03: I can understand your point, but there is at least one passage that comes to mind that does contradict your theory. And that passage comes from the most highest priority source we have: "The Lord of the Rings"; volume 2: "The Two Towers"; book IV; chapter IX: "Shelob's Lair":
Quote:
There agelonge she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Lúthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. ...
I must say that my memory of that passage was based on the German translation which makes the passage even more explicit by making it Shelob (or rather Kankra) herself who fought with Beren. But anyway here we have a passage that tells us that Beren fought against spiders on his way to Doriath. I would therefore argue that even if he never spoke about it the poet of the Lay took the elvish experience of the Ered Grogoroth and Dungorthed and the freedom of poesy and worked out a passage fitting to the occasion. If I imagine Frodo writing his account of his quest with no more information than what we have in the new version of the Lay and in QS as found in Sil77, how could he than say that Beren had fought with the spiders?

Either way I comment on BL-EX-04 to BL-EX-07 if we decide to use them in the end.

BL-EX-04 & BL-EX-05: What about:
Quote:
Then {all his}[on this] journey{'s} lonely[ he] fare,
{the}[of] hunger and {the}[of] haggard care,
BL-EX-06: May be we could change it thus:
Quote:
and there they lived, and sucked bones
lay white beneath on the dark stones -
now all these horrors like a cloud
BL-EX-06{faded from}[lay on his] mind. The waters loud
falling from pinnacle heights no more
he heard, those waters grey and frore
that bittersweet he drank and filled
his mind with madness - all was stilled.
BL-RG-00.5: Agreed. And Tauros -> Tauron is also right.

BL-RG-02: Agreed.

BL-RG-05: Agreed.

BL-RG-06: Agreed.

BL-RG-08: Agreed.

BL-RG-09: What about:
Quote:
whereon are built the timeless halls
of Manwe {Lord of Arda}[and Varda]. Who calls
Not the same sense but still true.

BL-RG-11.5: With an syllable more:
Quote:
{not might of Gods}[nor any might on Earth], not moveless fate
shall him defend from wrath and hate
But I am not really happy with this.

BL-RG-12: Of course with a "t" at the end. Thanks for the flowers.

BL-RG-15: Okay, then we will leave the "here" in 1827 out.

BL-SL-03: Let's try:
Quote:
So would they not that angry day
King Felagund their lord obey,
but sullen murmured that Finrod
{nor yet his son were as a god}[does not think enough as a realms lord].
Then Felagund took off his crown
and at his feet he cast it down,
BL-EX-09: What about:
Quote:
{One stopped and}[And Edrahil] lifted up {his}[the] crown,
{and said}[saying]: 'O king, to leave this town
BL-SL-04: Agreed.

BL-EX-10: Your work is ever welcome.

At last a word to the working speed. I do not bother at all how slow we are in the moment. When I look at the time it took to finish FoG we are still moving like in a rush reckoned from that point onward.

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Old 05-31-2006, 01:38 PM   #6
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Just to get this at the top: Are we still in progress?

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P.S.: Aiwendil, just to let you know, Maedhros and I are still active in the background. After finishing the reworking of all texts that we have to the point we did bring them as jet, I did make a draft for "The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fal of Fingolfin" and Maedhros made a draft for "The Flight of the Noldor". But we both agreed that we will not start with this chapters if ever we get Beren and Lúthien finished, but rather go to "Of Valinor and the Two Trees" with the group discussion and then proced through the chapters of Sil in due order.
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Old 05-31-2006, 05:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Just to get this at the top: Are we still in progress?
Yes. I know it was a few weeks ago that I said I'd have more comments "in a day or so" or something like that. Things have been busier than I expected and I haven't gotten much of a chance to sit down and put things in order.

So - sorry for the unpredictability of my contributions, but I'm still here and I will have more comments up soon.
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Old 06-10-2006, 11:35 AM   #8
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I'm really sorry that I'm proceeding with this so slowly . . .

BL-EX-03: I agree that it must have been known that Beren fought with spiders in Nan Dungortheb. The real issue, I suppose, is only the ract that Tolkien did not include the passage in the revision. I must think on this a bit more, but for the moment, I'm still inclined not to use it.

BL-RG-09: I don't think that "and Varda" can be used to replace "Lord of Gods", unfortunately - they have the same total number of syllables, but "and Varda" is only one stress, whereas "Lord of Gods" is two. "Lord of Arda" is useable but not ideal.

BL-RG-11.5: Again, the problem is with the number of stresses - "not any might on Earth" has one too many.

BL-SL-03: This one's looking difficult to me. I don't see a solution as yet.

BL-EX-09: Well, I don't think the added "and" would help matters. But looking back at this, I think that your original suggestion is not bad.

BL-RG-21: This leaves a couplet that doesn’t rhyme (“thou” and “do”). But we could fix it by changing to the second person plural/formal:

Quote:
And Beren muttered: 'BL-RG-21{Doth Gorthu}[Who are you]
{now}[to] hinder work that is to do?
This, however, still leaves the problem of the antecedent-less “him” that follows. This could be solved by changing the “him” to “you” in the following passage, but this alters the import of the dialogue somewhat.

It would be good if we could find a rhyme for “Sauron” or “Gorthaur” to use in line 2162, but I cannot come up with a good one. So I suppose my choice would be to go with “you” and change “him”.

BL-RG-22: One possibility that comes to mind is:

Quote:
Yet not all unavailing were (2215)
BL-RG-22the spells {of Felagund; Gorthu}[; for Sauron did not know]
{neither} the name{s} nor purpose of his foe.
The removal of the “s” in “names” is possibly not necessary; I’m not sure whether it’s valid to use “foe” as a collective singular.

BL-RG-23: I think “Great” is fine here, as it can be read simply as an epithet. Isn’t there a general change Tavros > Tauron, though? I’ll check.

BL-RG-24: I think that the “had” can be included without doing much damage to the metre.

BL-RG-26: The extra “thus” actually damages the metre, I think. “Sauron’s packs him feared as Death” is fine.

BL-RG-27: Same thing here; I would go with “Sauron’s wolves of late of dared”.

BL-RG-28: Same here. All of these cases are illustrations of the fact that this is not really a metre based on syllables but rather on feet. Since “Sauron” is accented on the first syllable, it should really be scanned as the second syllable of the first foot, with the first syllable missing (alternatively one could view the whole line as trochaic rather than iambic and consider the last syllable to be missing).

BL-RG-30: We could try a rhyme on “rescue” in the second line but this would still be awkward, since “rescue” is stressed on the first syllable.

Another possibility is:

Quote:
who Beren heeded not, and who
had little cause now to pursue
But this may be too much of a change.

BL-RG-32: How about:
Quote:
{Thu}[Sauron] heard that voice, and {sudden} stood
wrapped in his cloak and sable hood
BL-RG-33: It might be possible to use:
Quote:
that fed on flesh of Man and Elf
beneath the chair of BL-RG-33 {Thu} [Sauron] himself. (2715)
The metre there is not perfect but I think it’s passable.

BL-RG-34: I’m not sure we should leave out the “and”. It leaves a construction that is technically ungrammatical, though used often enough in written English. The “and” would not destroy the metre.

BL-RG-35: This looks good.

Quote:
But some other interesiting question: since he left behind the “wolvish corpse” had Sauron given up for a moment his incarnation just to build himself a new body at once? If that’s true then why didn’t he do that before he gave Lúthien the “password”?
It does seem to me that Sauron was “killed” here (just as he was, again, in the fall of Numenor and for a third time at the Last Alliance). But you make a good point – why yield the password if he was going to “die” in any case?
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Old 06-11-2006, 02:57 PM   #9
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BL-EX-03: I am not adamant in using it. In my view it is a passage with further details worth the changes need to use it. But the case that Tolkien did not include it in the revision shades some doubts on it.
It would be good to have third voice in this, but if your doubts presists we can drop it.

BL-RG-09: What is then with: "of Manwë Lord of {Gods}[Eä]. Who calls"?

BL-RG-11.5: Alternativ:
Quote:
{not}[no] might {of Gods}[on Earth], {not}[nor] moveless fate
BL-SL-03: A simple alternativ is to drop the couple:
Quote:
So would they not that angry day
King Felagund their Lord obey{,
but sullen murmured that Finrod
nor yet his son were as a god}.
Then Felagund took off his crown
and at his feet he cast it down,
BL-EX-09: Not that I would not take my own first suggestion, but my be it can be bettered:
Quote:
{One stopped and}[Edrahil then] lifted up {his}[the] crown,
and said: 'O king, to leave this town
BL-RG-21: I am okay with "you" and the change from "him" to "you" as well. The only rhyming word that comes to my mind for Gorthaur is power, but to introduce that would be a massiv change.

BL-RG-22: Very good! The question if the "s" in names is possible is beyond my knowldge of english orthography. But I would drop it simply to be on the save said.

BL-RG-23: You are rightthe history of the name was Tavros > Tauros > Tauron. I will add that to the list of General changes.

BL-RG-24: Okay, I will take the "had" back in.

BL-RG-26, BL-RG-27 & BL-EX-03: Agreed.

BL-RG-30: I like your suggestion. The use of pursue is a bit out of the maenstream meaning, but for me it works.

BL-RG-32 & BL-RG-33: Agreed.

BL-RG-34: Your feeling for the meter is much better then mine, so if you think the "and" can stand, I agree that it makes a beter gramatic for the sentence.

The issue of Saurons death:
I have to research this further. I remember dimly that this defeat was adress some were in a telling way, but as jet I cold not find it. In the moment my feeling is that Sauron was not killed and that therefore I would remove the cdead wolfish corpse.

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Old 06-24-2006, 06:21 PM   #10
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BL-RG-09: "Ea" and "Arda" are just about the same in terms of metre, I think (both are two syllables, stressed on the first). Is Manwe ever called "Lord of Ea"? I suppose it's a valid title, in any case, as Iluvatar dwells outside Ea.

BL-RG-11.5: I think this proposal is good.

BL-SL-03: Dropping the lines is a good solution, unless some better emendation can be found.

BL-EX-09: It has just occurred to me that I may be pronouncing "Edrahil" incorrectly (I must admit that Elvish stress-patterns are not one of my strong points). Is it stressed on the first or the second syllable? If it's the latter, then your original suggestion is perfectly good.
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Old 06-25-2006, 03:36 PM   #11
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BL-RG-09:
Quote:
"Ea" and "Arda" are just about the same in terms of metre, I think (both are two syllables, stressed on the first). Is Manwe ever called "Lord of Ea"?
If it is metricaly the same I suppose "Arda" the more commen title and I do not find any mention of Manwë as Lord of Eä.

BL-EX-09: Sorry, but I have no idea at all how Edrahil is pronounced correctly in elvish. I pronounced it just out of the blue on the first syllable, but if that is correct I do not know.

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Old 06-28-2006, 02:33 PM   #12
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As I promised I made the research for the death of Sauron. Here is what I found, to have any significance to the question:

QS36; draft text B:
Quote:
Then lest he be forced from the body unwillingly, which is a dire pain to such spirits, he yielded himself. And Luthien and Huan wrested from him the keys of the tower, and the spell that bound stone to stone.
Sil77:
Quote:
But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor; and he took his foe by the throat and pinned him down. Then Sauron shifted shape, from wolf to serpent, and from monster to his own accustomed form; but he could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly. Ere his foul spirit left its dark house, Lúthien came to him, and said that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: 'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower.'
Then Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him. And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees, and came to Tar-nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with horror.
GA:
Quote:
But Huan slew Draugluin, and when Sauron himself came forth in wolf-hame he overthrew him. Thus Sauron was constrained to yield up Tol-sirion, ere bereft of his bodily form he passed away as a black shadow into Taur-nu-Fuin.

LAY:
Quote:
A vampire shape with pinions vast
screeching leaped from the ground, and passed,
its dark blood dripping on the trees;
and Huan neath him lifeless sees
a wolvish corpse for Thu had flown . . . . . (2820)
to Taur-na-Fuin, a new throne
and darker stronghold there to build.
That sounds for me like he was not killed by Huan. I rather see the story running along this line: Sauron was defeated by Huan in a way that he was not able give up his bodily form by his own will. But Huan had still the option to kill him. Since this was a “dire pain to such spirits” and would have hindered the building of a new body, Lúthien could utter the thread she did and so Sauron gave in and delivered the key and the word for the tower. When both had been proved true, Huan relinquished his grip a bit (by design or by being distracted). Not enough that Sauron could escape in bodily from, but enough that he could forsake his body by his own will.
I never thought that in doing so a Maiar would leaf a corpus behind, but it seems that this was an option, and I think that option was only possible at a coast, but granted Sauron a way of early escape.

Since we must not make the text clearer than it was, we need not change anything, but my be we should address this issue in the appendix.

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Old 07-08-2006, 04:38 PM   #13
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When I fist did compile this chapter I sought only of the newer sources for text. But while further reading I discovered a few snippets worth considering. Therefore following you will find further additions. I start with the end of the poem and give here all additions to the end of text not only the new ones for an easier reference.
Quote:
Against the wall then Beren reeled
but still with his left he sought to shield
fair Lúthien, who cried aloud
to see his pain, and down she bowed
in anguish sinking to the ground.
*


BL-SL-08 <LQS 24 The Quest for the Silmaril 2
BL-EX-11.3 <LT Behold now that Silmaril blazeth with a white and hidden fire of its own nature and is possessed of a fierce and holy BL-EX-11.5 {magic}[power] - for did it not come from Valinor and the blessed realms, being fashioned with {spells of the Gods and Gnomes}[the kraft of Fëanor and the hallowing of Varda] before evil came there; and it doth not tolerate the touch of evil flesh or of unholy hand. Now cometh it into the foul body of {Karkaras}[Carcharoth]>. Then swiftly all his inwards were filled with a flame of anguish, and the Silmaril seared his accursed flesh. Howling he fled before them, and the walls of the valley of the Gate echoes with the clamour of his torment. …

… And they did not hasten from that place, for it seemed fair to them. Lúthien indeed was willing to wander in the wild without returning, forgetting house and people and all the glory of the Elf-kingdoms, and for a time Beren was content; but he could not for long forget his oath to return to Menegroth, nor would he withhold Lúthien from Thingol for ever. For he held by the law of Men, deeming it perilous to set at naught the will of the father, save at the last need; and it seemed also to him unfit that one so royal and fair as Lúthien should live always in the woods, as the rude hunters among Men, without home or honour or the fair things which are the delight of the queens of the Eldalië. BL-EX-11.7 <LT At last came there{ nevertheless} a day whereon waking out of a deep slumber Beren started up as one who leaves a dream of happy things coming suddenly to his mind, and he said: ‘Farewell, O Huan, most trusty comrade, and thou, little Tinúviel, whom I love, fare thee well. This only I beg of thee, get thee now straight to the safety of thy home, and may good Huan lead thee. But I - lo, I must away into the solitude of the woods, for I have lost that Silmaril which I had, and never dare I draw near to {Angamandi}[Angband] more, wherefore neither will I enter the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol].’ Then he wept to himself, but Tinúviel who was nigh and had hearkened to his musing came beside him and said: ‘Nay, now is my heart changed,’ and if thou dwellest in the woods, O Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion], then so will I, and if thou wilt wander in the wild places there will I wander also, or with thee or after thee: - yet never shall my father see me again save only if thou takest me to him.’ Then indeed was Beren glad at her sweet words, and fain would he have dwelt with her as a huntsman of the wild, but his heart smote him for all that she had suffered for him, and for her he put away his pride. Indeed she reasoned with him, saying it would be folly to be stubborn, and that her father would greet them with nought but joy, being glad to see his daughter yet alive - and ‘maybe,’ said she, ‘he will have shame that his jesting has given thy fair hand to the jaws of {Karkaras}[Carcharoth].’ But Huan also she implored to return with them a space, for ‘my father owes thee a very great reward, O Huan,’ saith she, ‘an he loves his daughter at all.’> Therefore {after a while he persuaded her, and }their footsteps forsook the houseless lands; and he passed into Doriath, leading Lúthien home. So their doom willed it. BL-EX-11.8 <Ros {But it}It was told in the legend of Beren and Lúthien that Lúthien learned Beren's native tongue during their long journeys together and ever after used it in their speech together. Not long before they came at last back to the borders of Doriath he asked her why she did so, since her own tongue was richer and more beautiful. Then she became silent and her eyes seemed to look far away before she answered: 'Why? Because I must forsake thee, or else forsake my own people and become one of the children of Men. Since I will never forsake thee, I must learn the speech of thy kin, and mine.'>

25 The Quest of the Silmaril 3:
The Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
Upon Doriath evil days had fallen. …
… But Thingol learned that Lúthien had journeyed far from Doriath, for messages came secretly from Celegorm, as has been told, saying that Felagund was dead, and Beren was dead, BL-EX-12 {but Lúthien was in Nargothrond, and that Celegorm would wed her.}and <Lay; Synopsis V that Celegorm {will}would make himself king of Narog, and while telling him that Lúthien {is}was safe in Nargothrond and treating for her hand, {hints}hinted that she {will}would not return: it also {warns}warned him to trouble not the matter of the Silmarils.> Then Thingol was wrathful, BL-EX-13 <Lay; Synopsis V and {is}was moved to think better of Beren, while yet blaming {[}him{]} for the woes that followed his coming to Doriath, and most for the loss of {Dairon}[Daeron].> {and}And he sent forth spies, thinking to make war upon Nargothrond. But BL-EX-14 <Lay; Synopsis V Melian {says}said she would forbid this evil war of Elf with Elf, but that never shall Thingol cross blade with Celegorm.> BL-EX-15 <Lay; Synopsis V Beleg was the chief of {his}Thingols scouts.> BL-EX-16 <Lay; Synopsis V {Beleg goes}He went forth from the camp on Doriath's borders and {journeys}journeyed, unseen by the archers, to Narog.>{; and thus he}Thus Thingol learned that Lúthien was again fled, and that Celegorm and Curufin were driven from Nargothrond. Then his counsel was in doubt, for he had not the strength to assail BL-RG-49 [all ]the{ seven} sons of Fëanor; but he sent messengers to Himring to summon their aid in seeking for Lúthien, since Celegorm had not sent her to the house of her father, nor had he kept her safely.

Even in that dark hour Beren and Lúthien returned. BL-EX-16.1 <LT Yet even as they approach they {find}found fear and tumult among that people such as had not been for a long age, and asking some that wept before their doors they learned that ever since the day of Tinúviel's secret flight ill-fortune had befallen them. Lo, the king had been distraught with grief and had relaxed his ancient wariness and cunning; indeed his warriors had been sent hither and thither deep into the unwholesome woods searching for that maiden, and many had been slain or lost for ever{, and war there was with Melko's servants about all their northern and eastern borders, so that the folk feared mightily lest that Ainu upraise his strength and come utterly to crush them and Gwendeling's magic have not the strength to withhold the numbers of the Orcs}. ‘Behold,’ said they, ‘’ow is the worst of all befallen, for long has Queen {Gwendeling}[Melian] sat aloof and smiled not nor spoken, looking as it were to a great distance with haggard eyes, and the web of her magic has blown thin about the woods, and the woods are dreary, for {Dairon}[Daeron] comes not back, neither is his music heard ever in the glades. Behold now the crown of all our evil tidings, for know that there has broken upon us raging from the halls of Evil a great grey wolf filled with an evil spirit, and he fares as though lashed by some hidden madness, and none are safe. Already has he slain many as he runs wildly snapping and yelling through the woods, so that the very banks of the stream that flows before the king's halls has become a lurking-place of danger. There comes the awful wolf oftentimes to drink, looking as the evil Prince himself with bloodshot eyes and tongue lolling out, and never can he slake his desire for water as though some inward fire devours him.’
Then was Tinúviel sad at the thought of the unhappiness that had come upon her folk, and most of all was her heart bitter at the story of {Dairon}[Daeron], for of this she had not heard any murmur before. Yet could she not wish Beren had come never to the lands of {Artanor}[Doriath], and together they made haste to {Tinwelint}[Thingol]; and already to the Elves of the wood it seemed that the evil was at an end now that Tinúviel was come back among them unharmed. Indeed they scarce had hoped for that.>{, hastening}Hastening from the west< they came at last to the gates of Menegroth>, and the news of their coming went before them like a sound of music borne by the wind into dark houses where men sit sorrowful.{ They came at last to the gates of Menegroth,} and a great host followed them. Then Beren led Lúthien before the throne of Thingol her father; and he looked in wonder upon Beren, whom he had thought dead; but he loved him not, because of the woes that he had brought upon Doriath. BL-EX-16.2 <LT In great gloom {do}did they find King {Tinwelint}[Thingol], yet suddenly is his sorrow melted to tears of gladness, and {Gwendeling}[Melian] {sings}sang again for joy when Tinúviel {enters}entered there and casting away her raiment of dark mist she {stands}stood before them in her pearly radiance of old. For a while all {is}was mirth and wonder in that hall, and yet at length the king {turns}turned his eyes to Beren and {says}said: ‘So thou hast returned too - bringing a Silmaril, beyond doubt, in recompense for all the ill thou hast wrought my land; or an thou hast not, I know not wherefore thou art here.’
Then Tinúviel stamped her foot and cried so that the king and all about him wondered at her new and fearless mood: ‘For shame, my father - behold, here is Beren the brave whom thy jesting drove into dark places and foul captivity and the Valar alone saved from a bitter death. Methinks 'twould rather befit a king of the Eldar to reward him than revile him.’ ‘Nay,’ said Beren, ‘the king thy father hath the right.> ’ And{But} Beren knelt before him, and said: 'I return according to my word. I am come now to claim my own.'
And Thingol answered: 'What of your quest, and of your vow?'
But Beren said: 'It is fulfilled. Even now a Silmaril is in my hand.'
Then Thingol said: 'Show it to me!'
BL-EX-16.3 {And}<Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 ‘My handholds the jewel’, and> Beren put forth his left hand, slowly opening its fingers; but it was empty. BL-EX-16.5 <Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 ‘Alas!’ said Beren, ‘it is in the other hand, but that is not here.’> Then he held up his right arm; and from that hour he named himself Camlost, the Empty-handed.
Then Thingol's mood was softened, BL-EX-16.7 <LT by reason of his stout and courteous demeanour, and he bade Beren and Tinúviel relate to him all that had befallen either of them, and he was eager to hearken, for he did not fully comprehend the meaning of Beren's words>; and Beren sat before his throne upon the left, and Lúthien upon the right, and they told all the tale of the Quest, while all there listened and were filled with amazement. And it seemed to Thingol that this Man was unlike all other mortal Men, BL-EX-17 <GA and among the great in Arda,> and the love of Lúthien a thing new and strange; and he perceived that their doom might not be withstood by any power of the world. Therefore at the last he yielded his will, and Beren took the hand of Lúthien before the throne of her father.
BL-EX-17.3 <LT ‘Never again,’ said he, ‘O Beren I beg of thee, leave this court nor the side of Tinúviel, for thou art a great {Elf}[Men] and thy name will ever be great among the kindreds.’ Yet Beren answered him proudly, and said: ‘Nay, O King, I hold to my word and thine, and I will get thee that Silmaril or ever I dwell in peace in thy halls.’ And the king entreated him to journey no more into the dark and unknown realms, but Beren said: ‘No need is there thereof, for behold that jewel is even now nigh to thy caverns,’ and he made clear to Tinwelint that that beast that ravaged his land was none other than {Karkaras}[Carcharoth], the wolfward of {Melko}[Morgoth]'s gates - and this was not known to all, but Beren knew it taught by Huan, whose cunning in the reading of track and slot was greatest among all the hounds, and therein are none of them unskilled.>
But now a shadow fell upon the joy of Doriath at the return of Lúthien the fair; for learning of the cause of the madness of Carcharoth the people grew the more afraid, perceiving that his danger was fraught with dreadful power because of the holy jewel, and hardly might be overthrown.{ And Beren, hearing of the onslaught of the Wolf, understood that the Quest was not yet fulfilled.}
Therefore, since daily Carcharoth drew nearer to Menegroth, they prepared the Hunting of the Wolf; of all pursuits of beasts whereof tales tell the most perilous. BL-EX-17.5 <LT King {Tinwelint}[Thingol] himself led that chase, and Beren <Camlost> was beside him, <and Beleg Strongbow,> and Mablung the heavy-handed, chief of the king's thanes, leaped up and grasped a spear - a mighty weapon {captured}[profen] in battle with the distant Orcs - and with those three stalked Huan mightiest of dogs, but others they would not take according to the desire of the king, who said: ‘{Four}[Five] is enough for the slaying even of the Hell-wolf’ - but only those who had seen knew how fearsome was that beast, nigh as large as a horse among Men, and so great was the ardour of his breath that it scorched whatsoever it touched.> {To that chase went Huan the Hound of Valinor, and Mablung of the Heavy Hand, and Beleg Strongbow, and Beren Camlost, and Thingol King of Doriath.} They rode forth in the morning and passed over the River Esgalduin; but Lúthien remained behind at the gates of Menegroth. A dark shadow fell upon her and it seemed to her that the sun had sickened and turned black.
The hunters turned east and north, <EX-BL-17.7 <LT and soon after Huan espied a new slot beside the stream, not far from the king's doors{, "and," quoth he, "this is the print of Karkaras."}. Thereafter they followed that stream{ all day}, and at many places its banks were new-trampled and torn and the water of the pools that lay about it was fouled as though some beasts possessed of madness had rolled and fought there not long before.> and following the course of the river they came at last upon Carcharoth the Wolf in a dark valley, down the northern side whereof Esgalduin fell in a torrent over steep falls. …

Mablung and Beleg came hastening to the King's aid, but when they looked upon what was done they cast aside their spears and wept. Then Mablung took a knife and ripped up the belly of the Wolf; and within he was well nigh all consumed as with a fire, but the hand of Beren that held the jewel was yet incorrupt. BL-EX-18 <Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 Mablung took out Beren’s right hand – his kamba, still holding the Silmaril and by its protection unmortified and clean. But to his surprise the hand and jewel seemed to have so great a weight that Mablung's own hand was dragged earthward and forced open, letting the other fall to the ground. It was said that Mablung's name ('with weighted hand') was prophetic; but it may have been a title derived from the episode that afterwards became the one that the hero was chiefly remembered by in legend.> But when Mablung reached forth to touch it, the hand was no more, and the Silmaril lay there unveiled, and the light of it filled the shadows of the forest all about them. BL-EX-18.3 <LT Then {holding it out }he said: ‘Behold O King,’ but {Tinwelint}[Thingol] said: ‘Nay, never will I handle it save only if Beren give it to me.{" But Huan said: "} And that seems like never to be, unless {ye}[we] tend him swiftly, for methinks he is hurt sorely’; and Mablung {and the king were}was ashamed.>Then quickly and in fear Mablung took it and set it in Beren's living hand; and Beren was aroused by the touch of the Silmaril, and held it aloft, and bade Thingol receive it. ‘BL-EX-18.5 <LT Behold, O King, I give thee the wondrous jewel thou didst desire, and it is but a little thing found by the wayside, for once methinks thou hadst one beyond thought more beautiful, and she is now mine. >Now is the Quest achieved,' he said, 'and my doom full-wrought'; and he spoke no more.

26 The Song of Lúthien in Mandos
BL-EX-18.7 <LT Therefore now they raised Beren gently up and tended him and washed him, and he breathed, but he spoke not nor opened his eyes, and when the sun {arose}[set down] and they had rested a little they bore him as softly as might be upon a bier of boughs back through the woodlands; and {nigh midday}[when] they drew near the homes of the folk again{, and then were} they were deadly weary, and Beren had not moved nor spoken, but groaned thrice.> They bore back Beren Camlost son of Barahir upon a bier of branches with Huan the wolfhound at his side; and night fell ere they returned to Menegroth. …

Then a winter, as it were the hoar age of mortal Men, fell upon Thingol.> BL-EX-19 <editorial bridge In the Lay it is told:>
Where the forest-stream went through the wood,
and silent all the stems there stood
of tall trees, moveless, hanging dark
with mottled shadows on their bark
above the green and gleaming river, [5]
there came through leaves a sudden shiver,
a windy whisper through the still
cool silences; and down the hill,
as faint as a deep sleeper's breath,
an echo came as cold as death: [10]
'Long are the paths, of shadow made
where no foot's print is ever laid,
over the hills, across the seas!
Far, far away are the Lands of Ease,
but the Land of the Lost is further yet, [15]
where the Dead wait, while ye forget.
No moon is there, no voice, no sound
of beating heart; a sigh profound
once in each age as each age dies
alone is heard. Far, far it lies, [20]
the Land of Waiting where the Dead sit,
in their thought's shadow, by no moon lit.'
<LQS; from Sil77 {But}Thus Lúthien came to the halls of Mandos, where are the appointed places of the Eldalië, beyond the mansions of the West upon the confines of the world. …
… Therefore he summoned Beren, and even as Lúthien had spoken in the hour of his death they met again beyond the Western Sea.
The Choices of Lúthien
But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Ilúvatar. …

… So it was that alone of the Eldalië she has died indeed, and left the world long ago. Yet in her choice the Two Kindreds have been joined; and she is the forerunner of many in whom the Eldar see yet, thought all the world is changed, the likeness of Lúthien the beloved, whom they have lost.

It is said that Beren and Lúthien returned to the northern lands of Middle-earth, and dwelt together for a time as living man and woman; BL-EX-20 {for taking}and they took up again their mortal form in Doriath. BL-EX-21 <GA Those that saw them were both glad and fearful; and Lúthien went to Menegroth and healed the winter of Thingol with the touch of her hand. But Melian looked in her eyes and read the doom that was written there, and turned away; for she knew that a parting beyond the end of the world had come between them, and no grief of loss has been heavier than the grief of Melian the Maia in that hour.> {they}Then Beren and Lúthien went forth alone, fearing neither thirst nor hunger; and they passed beyond the rivers into Ossiriand, and abode there in the green isle, Tol Galen, in the midst of Adurant, until all tidings of them ceased. There for the {Noldor}[Eldar] afterwards called that country {Gyrth-I-Guinar}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the country of the Dead that Live BL-EX-22 <GA ; and there was born{In this year was the birth of} Dior Aranel the Beautiful{ in Gwerth-i-Guinar}, who was after known as Dior BL-EX-23 <Sil77 Eluchíl, which is> Thingol's heir, father of the Halfelven.> {and no}No mortal man spoke ever again with Beren son of Barahir; and whether the second span of his life was brief or long is not known to Elves or Men, for none saw Beren or Lúthien leave the world or marked where at last their bodies lay.>
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Old 07-15-2006, 03:32 PM   #14
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I found an addition to BL-EX-11.8. reading a bit before the passage we used is also some retrospectiv info that we might use. But to make it fit the place were we will put it we have change the arangement a bit:
Quote:
Thereafter Beren was named Erchamion, which is the One-handed; and suffering was graven in his face. But at last he was drawn back to life by the love of Lúthien, and he arose, and together they walked in the woods once more. And they did not hasten from that place, for it seemed fair to them. Lúthien indeed was willing to wander in the wild without returning, forgetting house and people and all the glory of the Elf-kingdoms, and for a time Beren was content; but he could not for long forget his oath to return to Menegroth, nor would he withhold Lúthien from Thingol for ever. For he held by the law of Men, deeming it perilous to set at naught the will of the father, save at the last need; and it seemed also to him unfit that one so royal and fair as Lúthien should live always in the woods, as the rude hunters among Men, without home or honour or the fair things which are the delight of the queens of the Eldalië. BL-EX-11.7 <LT At last came there{ nevertheless} a day whereon waking out of a deep slumber Beren started up as one who leaves a dream of happy things coming suddenly to his mind, and he said: ‘Farewell, O Huan, most trusty comrade, and thou, little Tinúviel, whom I love, fare thee well. This only I beg of thee, get thee now straight to the safety of thy home, and may good Huan lead thee. But I - lo, I must away into the solitude of the woods, for I have lost that Silmaril which I had, and never dare I draw near to {Angamandi}[Angband] more, wherefore neither will I enter the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol].’ Then he wept to himself, but Tinúviel who was nigh and had hearkened to his musing came beside him and said: ‘Nay, now is my heart changed,’ and if thou dwellest in the woods, O Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion], then so will I, and if thou wilt wander in the wild places there will I wander also, or with thee or after thee: - yet never shall my father see me again save only if thou takest me to him.’ Then indeed was Beren glad at her sweet words, and fain would he have dwelt with her as a huntsman of the wild, but his heart smote him for all that she had suffered for him, and for her he put away his pride. Indeed she reasoned with him, saying it would be folly to be stubborn, and that her father would greet them with nought but joy, being glad to see his daughter yet alive - and ‘maybe,’ said she, ‘he will have shame that his jesting has given thy fair hand to the jaws of {Karkaras}[Carcharoth].’ But Huan also she implored to return with them a space, for ‘my father owes thee a very great reward, O Huan,’ saith she, ‘an he loves his daughter at all.’> Therefore {after a while he persuaded her, and }their footsteps forsook the houseless lands; and he passed into Doriath, leading Lúthien home. So their doom willed it. BL-EX-11.8 <Ros {But it}It was told in the legend of Beren and Lúthien that Lúthien learned Beren's native tongue during their long journeys together and ever after used it in their speech together. <Ros The Folk of Bëor continued to speak their own tongue among themselves with fair purity, though many Sindarin words were borrowed and adapted by them [footnote: Not necessarily confined to names of things that had not before {[}been{]} known. In the nomenclature of later generations assimilation to the Eldarin modes, and the use of some elements frequent in Eldarin names, can be observed.] This was of course the native tongue of Beren, lineal descendant of Bëor the Old. He spoke Sindarin after a fashion (probably derived from North Sindarin); but his halting and dialectal use of it offended the ears of Thingol. [Footnote: {He [}Thingol{]} had small love for the Northern Sindar who had in regions near Angband come under the dominion of Morgoth, and were accused of sometimes entering his service and providing him with spies. The Sindarin used by the Sons of Fëanor also was the northern dialect; and they were hated in Doriath.]> Not long before {they}Beren and Lúthien came at last back to the borders of Doriath he asked her why she did {so}use his tongue, since her own tongue was richer and more beautiful. Then she became silent and her eyes seemed to look far away before she answered: 'Why? Because I must forsake thee, or else forsake my own people and become one of the children of Men. Since I will never forsake thee, I must learn the speech of thy kin, and mine.'>
Here after follwos chapter 25 there fore I did not give any more in the quote.

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Old 10-08-2006, 07:06 PM   #15
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My apologies again for the terrible state of neglect in which I've left this project. Here are my comments on the remainder of the original Beren and Luthien changes.

BL-SL-06: I’m inclined to think that the discrepancy between the Lay and QS77 can be put down to compression.

BL-RG-40: Let’s retain the plural:

Quote:
BL-RG-40 {Thu's messengers}[Sauron’s heralds].
BL-RG-41: Without the “thou”, the sentence is no longer grammatical. I suggest:

Quote:
BL-RG-41 {when} [with] {Thu thou}[Sauron] {vanquishedst}[vanquished], what need
BL-RG-42: I suppose this is justifiable.

BL-RG-45: I think we must look for a better solution to this line. The best case would be that we could keep the first line and find a new rhyme for “new”. Let’s see:

Quote:
BL-RG-45I fare with hasty tidings new (3770)
{to Morgoth }from[Sauron, Morgoth’s servant true]{forest-haunting Thu}.
Not great, I know. Perhaps there’s another rhyme for “new” that could be used.

BL-RG-48: I suppose “Gods” is all right in this instance.

BL-EX-12: I like the idea of incorporating details from the synopsis, but I think this sentence has become a little unwieldy. I suggest:

Quote:
But Thingol learned that Lúthien had journeyed far from Doriath, for messages came secretly from Celegorm, as has been told, saying that Felagund was dead, and Beren was dead, BL-EX-12{but Lúthien was in Nargothrond, and that Celegorm would wed her.} and <Lay; Synopsis V that Celegorm {will}would make himself king of Narog{,}[;] and while telling him that Lúthien {is}was safe in Nargothrond and treating for her hand, {hints}it hinted that she {will}would not return: it also {warns}warned him to trouble not the matter of the Silmarils.>
BL-EX-16.3: Unfortunately, I have none of the VT and I have not seen Eldarin Hands – but I’ll take your word for it. I think that the splicing has left an ungrammatical sentence though, so I’d suggest:

Quote:
BL-EX-16.3{And}<Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 ‘My hand holds the jewel’, Beren said and> {Beren}[he] put forth his left hand, slowly opening its fingers; but it was empty. BL-EX-16.5<Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 ‘Alas!’ said Beren, ‘it is in the other hand, but that is not here.’>
I have yet to look carefully over the changes Findegil proposed in the last two posts. As for introducing some details of the hunting of the wolf from BoLT - I was going to suggest that myself!

I will, I hope, be able to go back over the unresolved points and look for better solutions to some lines this week.
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Old 10-09-2006, 01:35 PM   #16
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Okay, your suggestions are good. Even BL-RG-45. All other ryhmings I could find do not seem to be much better:
Quote:
BL-RG-45 I fare with hasty tidings new (3770)
to Morgoth from [Sauron's ]forest-haunting {Thu}[crew].
or with a gramatic liberty:
Quote:
BL-RG-45 I fare with hasty tidings new (3770)
to Morgoth from [Sauron's, ]{forest-}haunting {Thu}[forests through].
I will stopp now before you leap up and run screaming from the screen, when I try to find a sense full sentence for the ryhming of "new" - "clow".

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Old 10-15-2006, 12:13 PM   #17
Aiwendil
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BL-EX-11.8: This is good; I would make one small change:
Quote:
Not long before {they}Beren and Lúthien came at last back to the borders of Doriath he asked her why she {did so}used his tongue, since her own tongue was richer and more beautiful.
BL-EX-16.2: I think you missed an alteration to past tense here:
Quote:
<LT In great gloom {do}did they find King {Tinwelint}[Thingol], yet suddenly {is}was his sorrow melted to tears of gladness
BL-EX-17.3: There is a missing Tinwelint > Thingol here:
Quote:
‘No need is there thereof, for behold that jewel is even now nigh to thy caverns,’ and he made clear to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] that that beast that ravaged his land was none other than {Karkaras}[Carcharoth],
BL-EX-17.5: I'm not sure about this:
Quote:
a mighty weapon {captured}[profen] in battle with the distant Orcs
I assume you mean "proven" - but I'm not sure whether it is no longer valid for the Elves to have "captured" a weapon in battle with the Orcs. I suppose that in light of the changes in the characterization of Thingol's realm, the change might be justified.

BL-EX-18:
Quote:
Mablung took out Beren’s right hand – his kamba, still holding the Silmaril and by its protection unmortified and clean.
The explanatory interjection "his kamba" looks to me like it's out of place in a narrative, as opposed to an essay. I would delete it.

Similarly, the note concerning the meaning of Mablung's name feels out of place. Perhaps (and I'm surprised I'm suggesting this) a footnote would be a better place for this information.

BL-EX-18.3:
Quote:
Then {holding it out }he said: ‘Behold O King,’
Why is "holding it out" deleted?

BL-EX-18.7: I would make this:
Quote:
Therefore now they raised Beren gently up and tended him and washed him, and he breathed, but he spoke not nor opened his eyes, and when the sun {arose}[set] and they had rested a little they bore him as softly as might be upon a bier of boughs back through the woodlands
It seems to me that this:
Quote:
They bore back Beren Camlost son of Barahir upon a bier of branches with Huan the wolfhound at his side; and night fell ere they returned to Menegroth.
Is a redundant restatement of what has just been inserted from LT. I would delete it.
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Old 10-16-2006, 12:00 PM   #18
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To all i do not comment I agree.

BL-EX-17.5 I hesitated long about this. Is it think able that a Elf used a Orc weapon, because it seems mightier? I think not. But on the other hand, Orcs often used waepons from their foes, so this might be a weapon captured from by a orc-captina from some Dwarf in distance day and then captured by Mablung in a later battle. And since in the end our principle is to let a story stand if it can not be unproven, we should let the captured stand.

BL-EX-18 A FOOTNOTE?
I nearly had fall out of my chair when I read that. But if you find it fitting to bring in the information in that way, I am with you.


BL-EX-18.3: Either we have to delet "holding it out" or "took it" one sentence later, or at least so I think. And since the first is an an addition I found it more apropirate to delet this, even if in its proper place it was the first time Mablung touched the Silmaril.


BL-EX-18.7: Agreed to the first change.

Yes, you are right. But I think we should still ceary Huan back with Beren and also I would like to take up the name Camlost and this heritage:
Quote:
BL-EX-18.7 <LT Therefore now they raised Beren <moved Camlost son of Barahir> gently up and tended him and washed him, and he breathed, but he spoke not nor opened his eyes, and when the sun {arose}[set] and they had rested a little they bore him as softly as might be upon a bier of boughs <moved with Huan the wolfhound at his side> back through the woodlands; and nigh {midday}[midnight] they drew near the homes of the folk again, and then they were deadly weary, and Beren had not moved nor spoken, but groaned thrice.>{They bore back Beren Camlost son of Barahir upon a bier of branches with Huan the wolfhound at his side; and night fell ere they returned to Menegroth.} At the feet of ...
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Old 10-29-2006, 05:00 PM   #19
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BL-EX-18.3: Ah, I understand now. I agree that "holding it out" should go.

BL-EX-18.7: This looks good to me.

I've been working on some of the spots that remain problematic, but without much success so far. I did come up with something for BL-EX-10, though it still needs some work:

Quote:
But Felagund spoke ere he bade farewell:
‘This I say to Celegorm the fell,
by the sight that is given me in this hour,
by neither thine nor any power
shall thy kin the Silmarils gain
before the End; all in vain
is your oath. And this we seek
shall be delivered ’neath the triple peak,
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour all
of Feanor’s sons, and to other care
Luthien’s great bride-price bear.’
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Old 10-30-2006, 08:20 AM   #20
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BL-EX-10: That is definitly much better then my own try. I find it impresive. What do you don't like?

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Old 11-02-2006, 07:30 PM   #21
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Looking back on it, I suppose it's not that bad. I do worry a bit that it may be too great a deviation from the base text that is being versified.

The one line that still bothers me is:

Quote:
shall be delivered ’neath the triple peak,
. . . which sounds to my ear very forced.

I should have some time this weekend to work on other problematic spots.
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Old 11-08-2006, 12:47 PM   #22
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What about this:
Quote:
But Felagund spoke ere he bade farewell:
'This I say to Celegorm the fell,
by the sight that is given me in this hour,
by neither thin nor any power
shall thy kin the Silmarils gain
before the End, all in vain
you swore. And this that we seek
shall lastly come indeed,
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour all
sons of Fëanor, and to other care
Lúthien’s great bride-price bear.'
Beside a rhyming on seek/indeed I changed "is your oath" to "you swore" because I found two times oath so short after one an other awkward. And I find that "Fëanor's sons" would be better "sons of Fëanor".

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Old 11-09-2006, 04:18 PM   #23
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I'm afraid "seek"/"indeed" is not a close enough rhyme. I will continue to look for a better rhyme - though at worst, I think the 'triple peak' line could suffice.

As for "you swore" versus "is your oath" - the only problem is that with "you swore" the line doesn't scan quite right. We could make it:

Quote:
you swore. And this that we now seek
. . . which I suppose might be preferable to my line as it stays closer to the text.

"Feanor's sons" vs. "sons of Feanor": I think that if we go with the latter, we need the definite article:

Quote:
the sons of Feanor, and to other care
But I'm not convinced that this scans better than 'Feanor's sons'.
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Old 01-07-2007, 06:20 AM   #24
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Lets try another time to bring this to a good end:
Quote:
But Felagund spoke ere he bade farewell:
'This I say to Celegorm the fell,
by the sight that is given me in this hour,
by neither thin nor any power
shall thy kin the Silmarils gain
before the End, all in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall be delivered from the triple peak,
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour all
the sons of Fëanor, and to other care
Lúthien’s great bride-price bear.'
I find "from" less forced than "'neath" and still think that "the sons of Fëanor" is better than "of Feanor’s sons".

Is their anything else missing in this chapter? I will try to get back into the text and the discussion and see if any point is still open.

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Old 01-27-2007, 06:16 PM   #25
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After a very quiet period I will try to restart with this part. As fare as I can see we only have to deicide on
BL-EX-03: There has as jet not been a final decision if we want to take the account of Berens journey through Nan Dungortheb into our version or not. Especially I would ask Maedhros to step in here and utter his opinion since Aiwendil and I seemed to be of different minds.

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Old 01-27-2007, 11:05 PM   #26
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White Tree Spiders in Nan Dungortheb

I'm sorry that I have not posted in the Project for a long time, but hopefully my contributions will be more frequent from now on.

Lets have a summary of the previous discussion of BL-EX-03:

Findegil:
Quote:
BL-EX-03: Here I added the discription of Berens journey through the Ered Gorgorath. Tolkien did not used it the recomenced version and a point can be made that we should therfore leave it out. But I think it was scipt because it was retrospectiv and thus broke the naritive therefore I moved it this place.
Aiwendil:
Quote:
BL-EX-03: This needs a bit of thought. As much as I like the passage, I am really quite hesitant to include it, since Tolkien left it out of the revised version. I can think of a possible motivation for this removal – it is said in QS (as found in the ’77) that Beren “spoke of it [the journey] to no one after, lest the horror lest the horror return into his mind; and none know how he found a way, and so came by paths that no Man or Elf else ever dared to tread to the borders of Doriath”. I need to think about this further, but for the moment I must say I’m inclined not to re-introduce the passage.
Findegil:
Quote:
BL-Ex-03: I can understand your point, but there is at least one passage that comes to mind that does contradict your theory. And that passage comes from the most highest priority source we have: "The Lord of the Rings"; volume 2: "The Two Towers"; book IV; chapter IX: "Shelob's Lair":
Quote:
There agelonge she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Lúthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. ...

I must say that my memory of that passage was based on the German translation which makes the passage even more explicit by making it Shelob (or rather Kankra) herself who fought with Beren. But anyway here we have a passage that tells us that Beren fought against spiders on his way to Doriath. I would therefore argue that even if he never spoke about it the poet of the Lay took the elvish experience of the Ered Grogoroth and Dungorthed and the freedom of poesy and worked out a passage fitting to the occasion. If I imagine Frodo writing his account of his quest with no more information than what we have in the new version of the Lay and in QS as found in Sil77, how could he than say that Beren had fought with the spiders?
Aiwendil:
Quote:
BL-EX-03: I agree that it must have been known that Beren fought with spiders in Nan Dungortheb. The real issue, I suppose, is only the ract that Tolkien did not include the passage in the revision. I must think on this a bit more, but for the moment, I'm still inclined not to use it.
I want to post now, the rules that we use in the Project:
Quote:
1. The first priority is always given to the latest editions of works published during Tolkien's lifetime.

2. Secondary priority is given to the latest ideas found among Tolkien's unpublished texts and letters, except where they:
a. violate the published canon without specifically correcting an error or
b. are proposed changes that do not clearly indicate the exact details that must be changed and how they are to be changed.

3. If no sources that fall under number 2 can be used to form the actual narrative of a section, then any text or summary created by Christopher Tolkien may be used, provided it does not violate the canon established for that section by numbers 1 and 2 above.

4. No new names and no new expressions in Elvish or in any of J.R.R. Tolkien's special languages may be introduced; all names or expressions in J.R.R. Tolkien's special languages that are updated must be changed either in accordance with a universal change by Tolkien or with a logical reason and a sound etymology.

5. Information in sources of lower level priority are to be preferred over information in sources of higher level priority where the item of information in source of higher level priority can be reasonably demonstrated to be an error, whether a "slip of the pen" or from inadequate checking of previous writing.

6. The actual words used by J.R.R. Tolkien or the editor or summarizer of his work may only be changed, including change by deletion or addition, when:
a) they are minimally changed to agree with statements elsewhere in the canon recognized as of greater validity or to are replaced with words or phrases from later or alternate restatements of the same material for reasons of consistancy or are changed to agree with alternate phrasings used by Tolkien of the same or better validity
b) they are minimally changed to avoid great awkwardness of expression such as ungrammatical constructions or too great a difference in style from the passage or section/chapter into which they are now to be inserted.
c) they are minimally added to in order to expand a sentence fragments or an incomplete phrase into a construction that fits grammatically in the new environment
d) they are deleted to avoid redundancy in new passages compiled from more than one source
e) they are, in verse passages, minimal changes that do not add new information to the tale, to maintain the proper metre and rhyme or alliterative pattern of the original verse.

7. Personal aesthetics are not to be used in establishing the actual events in the narrative; all changes and decisions must be justified by the above principles, either:
a) with explicit indication; that is, a text of greater precedence contradicting a text of lesser precedence, or
b) with implicit indication that JRRT almost certainly would have changed/deleted it. But we must base this on some evidence or text from JRRT or CJRT; that is, a text of greater precedence suggesting beyond reasonable doubt a contradiction with a text of lesser precedence, or
c) in cases where two options are given precisely equal validity by the above guidelines, by a majority vote based on personal aesthetics and individual opinions.
A corallary is that we may not disregard any text or note, old idea or projected change, by JRRT unless it is invalidated by one of the above principles, explicitly or implicitly; that is, we must have a REASON for rejecting something.
It is obvious that the The Lay of Leithian recommenced is newer than the original Lay, but the fact is as Findegil pointed it out, Beren did in fact had an encounter with them as stated in the canonical LOTR.
I wonder at the following, if one persons reads our Translations from the Elvish, wouldn't he tell us why there is nothing about the encounter that Beren had in Nan Dungortheb with the spiders, that he had already read in LOTR.

I'm sorry for posting this Aiwendil, but you made the following point:
Quote:
As for Sador/Sadog: I have long been convinced that we cannot implement the proposed alteration of the character to a Drug. Still, a presentation of all the valid material as a single narrative is one of the main goals of this project, so there is something to be said for placing this material in the First Age, irrespective of its original context in "Of Dwarves and Men".
It is my view that we should include the fragment from the original Lay, because it is a valid material (canonical in fact) into the narrative.
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Old 01-30-2007, 09:53 PM   #27
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Maedhros has convinced me (it seems references to the project's principles tend to do that). Tolkien may have taken the passage out for aesthetic reasons, but as it is valid canonically it can stay.
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Old 01-30-2007, 09:59 PM   #28
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Than I think we are done with this chapter.

Will work a bit on tonight and see if I can bring a finished version up in the privat forum.

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Old 10-30-2011, 08:34 PM   #29
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As promised, here are the notes I have on the text of this chapter. I wrote these comments some two years ago, so they're not exactly fresh in my mind but I've just glanced through them again and I think I've sufficiently reminded myself of the issues they mention. Some of these are just typos which may or may not have already been caught and silently corrected.

Line 331:
Quote:
where Eilinel long since had laid
Should be ‘where Eilinel long since had lain’.

BL-EX-04: There are two problems here that I hadn’t noticed:

Quote:
BL-EX-03 <Lay; old Version BL-EX-04 Then {all his}[on this] journey{'s} lonely he fare,
First, this is ungrammatical; second, it’s an extra line that doesn’t rhyme! I think we can just delete the line:

Quote:
BL-EX-03 <Lay; old Version BL-EX-04 {Then all his journey's lonely fare,}
{the}[The] awful mountains' stones he stained {565}
with blood of weary feet, and gained


BL-EX-06: Re-reading this I noticed that we have not completely eliminated the retrospective aspect of the passage:

Quote:
now all these horrors like a cloud {575}
BL-EX-06 {faded from}[lay on his] mind. The waters loud
falling from pineclad heights no more
he heard, those waters grey and frore
that bittersweet he drank and filled [610]
his mind with madness - all was stilled.
Here we say that the ‘waters loud . . . no more he heard’ and that ‘all was stilled’. In the original Lay these statements described his changed state of mind when he reached Doriath, and they cannot be used here in describing the journey as it happens.

I think it might be best to drop lines 606-611 entirely:

Quote:
BL-EX-06 and there they lived, and the sucked bones
lay white beneath on the dark stones. {- [605]
now all these horrors like a cloud {575}
faded from mind. The waters loud
falling from pineclad heights no more
he heard, those waters grey and frore
that bittersweet he drank and filled [610]
his mind with madness - all was stilled.} {580}
He recked not BL-EX-07 {now}[of] the burning road,
the paths demented where he strode
Line 764:
Quote:
to endless lamentation passed
and in the tombless sea was cast.
The story here seems to be that Maglor cast himself into the sea, whereas the story we’ve followed is that he cast the Silmaril into the sea but survived (and was lost) himself. I suppose we could try something like:

Quote:
to endless lamentation passed
{and}[when] in the {tombless} sea {was}[the Jewel he] cast.
BL-RG-00.5: I know this was my suggestion, but looking at it again I don’t think it works:

Quote:
BL-RG-00.5 and tree-propped halls, the {forest-god}[forest-lord],
rides his great stallion golden-shod
The lord/shod rhyme just isn’t close enough. I can’t think of anything particularly good, but I suppose there’s this:

Quote:
BL-RG-00.5 and tree-propped halls{, the forest-god}[in forests old]
rides his great stallion {golden-shod}[shod with gold]
BL-RG-01: Just a typo here: ‘Finrafin’ should be ‘Finarfin’.

Line 1833:
Quote:
There countless torches fitfully
did start and twinkle, as the {Gnomes}[Elves]
were gathered to their fading homes,
Here we lose the rhyme with the change to ‘Elves’. I’ve stared at these lines for quite a while but can’t come up with anything suitable. So I think perhaps we should just delete lines 1833-1837:

Quote:
The mists were mantled round the towers {1595}
of the Elves' white city by the sea.
{There countless torches fitfully
did start and twinkle, as the {Gnomes}[Elves]
were gathered to their fading homes, [1835]
and thronged the long and winding stair {1600}
that led to the wide echoing square.}

There Fëanor mourned his jewels divine,
BL-RG-09: Here we settled for the somewhat clunky:

Quote:
of Manwë BL-RG-09 {Lord of Gods}[Lord of Arda]. Who calls
It occurs to me we could improve it with:

Quote:
of Manwë BL-RG-09 {Lord of Gods}[Arda’s Lord]. Who calls
BL-RG-11.5: I think we can stay closer to the meaning of the text here with:

Quote:
BL-RG-11.5 not [Valar’s] might {of Gods}, not moveless fate
Line 1880: Again we lose the rhyme with {Gnomes}[Elves]:

Quote:
The wars and wandering of the {Gnomes}[Elves] [1880]
this tale tells not. Far from their homes
Here we don’t have the luxury of being able to simply delete the lines, since they form the necessary bridge between Feanor’s speech and what follows. We could try this:

Quote:
The wars and wandering {of the Gnomes}[that them befell]
this tale {tells not.}has not the space to tell,
how they fought and laboured in the North.
. . . which, however, may be taking too much liberty.

BL-RG-13: Same typo again: ‘Finrafin’ for ‘Finarfin’.

BL-RG-15: Same typo again.

BL-RG-16: If we take my suggestion for BL-RG-11.5 then we should probably make this:

Quote:
BL-RG-16 no [Vala’s] might {of Gods}, no binding spell,
BL-EX-09:
Quote:
BL-EX-09 {One stooped and}[Edrahil then] lifted up {his}[the] crown,
I think the meter would be better without ‘then’:

Quote:
BL-EX-09 {One stooped and}[Edrahil] lifted up {his}[the] crown,

BL-EX-10: I think 2162 doesn’t scan right. Better would be:
Quote:
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain} {the Silmarils}their Jewels {ever unto world's end.}regain
Line 2165:
Quote:
shall {come indeed}be delivered from the triple peak,
This is really nitpicking, but technically I wouldn’t say the Silmaril is delivered from the triple peak (i.e. the Silmaril was not on top of Thangorodrim); it was delivered from Angband, which is beneath the triple peak. That’s why my initial suggestion was:

Quote:
shall {come indeed}be delivered ’neath the triple peak,
. . . which perhaps doesn’t read quite as well but is more literally correct. I’m tempted to go with it.

BL-SL-05:

Quote:
'Boldog, I heard, was lately slain[
strange ye were not in Boldog's train.
Thirty are slain by twelve you claim,]
warring on the borders of that domain
where Robber Thingol and outlaw folk [2375]
cringe and crawl beneath elm and oak {2130}
in drear Doriath. Heard ye not then
of that pretty fay, of Lúthien?
Her body is fair, very white and fair.
Morgoth would possess her in his lair. [2380]
BL-SL-05 {Boldog he sent, but Boldog was slain: {2135}
strange ye were not in Boldog's train.}
Fierce is your chief, his frown is grim.
Little Lúthien! What troubles him?
Why laughs he not to think of his lord
crushing a maiden in his hoard, {2140}
that foul should be what once was clean, [2385]
that dark should be where light has been?
First, whence comes ‘Thiry are slain by twelve you claim’? Is this an editorial addition?

More importantly, it seems to me that it’s not enough to remove lines 2381-2382. I think that it was not merely Boldog’s specific mission to capture Luthien that was rejected but rather the whole motif of Morgoth having heard of and desiring Thingol’s beautiful daughter. With that in mind, I think we may, unfortunately, need to delete most of the passage:

Quote:
BL-SL-05 'Boldog, I heard, was lately slain[;]
{warring on the borders of that domain
where Robber Thingol and outlaw folk [2375]
cringe and crawl beneath elm and oak {2130}
in drear Doriath. Heard ye not then
of that pretty fay, of Lúthien?
Her body is fair, very white and fair.
Morgoth would possess her in his lair. [2380]
Boldog he sent, but Boldog was slain:} {2135}
strange ye were not in Boldog's train.
{Fierce is your chief, his frown is grim.
Little Lúthien! What troubles him?
Why laughs he not to think of his lord
crushing a maiden in his hoard, {2140}
that foul should be what once was clean, [2385]
that dark should be where light has been?}
BL-RG-23: A very minor point, but with the change of ‘God’ to ‘Great’ I would remove the comma after ‘Tauron’:

Quote:
{Tavros,}[Tauron] the BL-RG-23 {God}[Great] whose horns did blow
Lines 2507 and 2508: Missing an apostrophe in both lines: {Tavros’}[Tauron’s].

BL-RG-30: I think the line is now too short. A metrical ‘now’ might work:

Quote:
had little cause now to BL-RG-30 {wrest from Thu}[pursue]
BL-RG-35: I think we can keep the ‘thus’:

Quote:
BL-RG-35 Thus [Sauron] came{ Thu}, as wolf more great
BL-RG-38:

Quote:
Then sprang about the darkened North {3130}
the Sickle of the BL-RG-38 {Gods}[North], and forth
We might eliminate the extra ‘north’ with:

Quote:
Then sprang about the darkened North {3130}
the Sickle of the BL-RG-38 {Gods}[Valar]{, and}[;] forth
BL-RG-40: I just realized that we never actually use the name ‘Thuringwethil’ here. It would be nice if we could work it in. A possibility that occurs to me is:

Quote:
the other {was a batlike}[Thuringwethil’s] garb
with mighty fingered wings, a barb
like iron nail at each joint's end -
such wings as their dark cloud extend {3405}
against the moon, when in the sky [3685]
from Deadly Nightshade screeching fly
BL-RG-40 {Thu's messengers}[Sauron’s bats].
Thus we accomplish several things: a. name Thuringwethil; b. still specify that the garb is bat-like; and c. reduce the last line by one syllable.

On the other hand, Thuringwethil is named later in line 4227, so maybe this is unnecessary.

BL-SL-07: As with BL-SL-05, it seems to me that not only Boldog’s raid but the whole element of Morgoth hearing of Luthien was removed. We can accomplish this like so:

Quote:
the aisled forests there was heard
great Huan baying.

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Then came word {3665}
{most passing strange of Lúthien [3945]
wild-wandering by wood and glen,
and Thingol's purpose long he weighed,
and wondered, thinking of that maid
so fair, so frail. A captain dire, {3670}
Boldog, he sent with sword and fire
to Doriath's march; but battle fell
sudden upon him: news to tell
never one returned of Boldog's host,
and Thingol humbled Morgoth's boast. {3675}
Then his heart with doubt and wrath was burned:
new tidings of dismay he learned,} [3950]
BL-RG-43 {how Thu was }[of Sauron] o'erthrown and his strong isle

BL-SL-08: Typo: ‘kraft’ for ‘craft’.

As I think about it, I don’t know that the change {magic}[power] is necessary.

I would also change ‘and the hallowing of Varda’ to ‘and hallowed by Varda’:

Quote:
BL-EX-11.3 <LT Behold now that Silmaril blazeth with a white and hidden fire of its own nature and is possessed of a fierce and holy BL-EX-11.5 magic - for did it not come from Valinor and the blessed realms, being fashioned with {spells of the Gods and Gnomes}[the craft of Fëanor and hallowed by Varda] before evil came there
BL-EX-17.3: Typo: ‘Men’ for ‘Man’.
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Old 11-07-2011, 09:05 AM   #30
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A few comments as fare as I can do in a rush:

Line 331: Done.

BL-EX-03: I think you missed one line, but you are correct that it is ungramatical. What about:
Quote:
BL-EX-03 <Lay; old Version BL-EX-04 Then {all his}[on a] journey{'s} lonely he fare,
BL-EX-05 {the}[of] hunger and {the}[of] haggard care,
the awful mountains' stones he stained
with blood of weary feet, and gained
BL-EX-06: agreed, so not happily.

Line 764: Verry good catch. I agree to your suggestion.

BL-RG-00.5: I like your suggestion, but I think the coma has to stay. The 'tree-propped halls' are Taurons halls in Valmaren it is not a description of the forest he rides in:
Quote:
Mayhap the Lord {Tauros}[Tauron] from his gate
BL-RG-00.5 and tree-propped halls, {the forest-god}in forests old
rides his great stallion {golden-shod}shod with gold
amid the trumpets' tempest loud,
amid his green-clad hunters proud,
All the Finrafin's I could find are corrected.

I will come back to the rest later on.

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Old 11-08-2011, 10:41 AM   #31
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Further comments:

BL-EX-06: I do not much like to lose these lines. What about:
Quote:
and there they lived, and the sucked bones
lay white beneath on the dark stones -
now all these horrors like a cloud
BL-EX-06 {faded from}[laid on his] mind. The waters loud
falling from pineclad heights {no more}[of decay]
he heard, those waters {grey and }frore[ and gray]
that bittersweet he drank and filled
his mind with madness {- all was stilled}[yet unstilled].
Line 1833: What a bot this:
Quote:
There countless torches fitfully
did start and twinkle, as BL-RG-08.5 {the Gnomes}[Noldor] alone
were gathered to their fading {homes}home,
and thronged the long and winding stair
that led to the wide echoing square.
Okay, I added the information that it were only Noldor who gahtered in Tirion, but that info is at least correct.

BL-RG-09 and [b]BL-RG-11.5[7b]: Good suggestions.

Line 1880: I think you have one feet to much in line 1883. What about:
Quote:
The wars and wandering BL-RG-11.7{of the Gnomes}[that them befell]
this tale {tells not. Far from their homes}has not the space to tell.
{they}They fought and laboured in the North{.},
when Fingon {daring alone}on his owne went forth
and sought for {Maidros}[Maedron] where he hung;
BL-RG-16 and BL-EX-09: Agreed.

BL-EX-10:I agree to your two suggestions, but I think we have not enough counted sylables in these lines. What about:
Quote:
BL-EX-10 <GA But Felagund spoke ere farewell:
'{But this}This I {will }say to{ you, Celegorn}[Celegorm] the fell,
by{ the} sight that is given me{ in} this hour,
{that}by neither {thou}thine nor any power
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain the Silmarils ever unto world's end.}their Jewels regain
before the End; for all in vain

you swore. And this that we now seek
shall to liberty come indeed
but never to your hands shall it fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour youall,
and{ deliver} to other {keeping}much more fitfull care
Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'>
That is as fare as time allows for today.
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Old 11-10-2011, 09:56 AM   #32
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BL-SL-05:
Quote:
First, whence comes ‘Thirty are slain by twelve you claim’? Is this an editorial addition?
Yes, that is what BL-SL-05 really was about. My idea behind the move of these line was to eliminate the spezial mission of Boldog but hold him as a Orc leader, recently killed. But in the end the second line that is needed for metrical reasons does change the fights from that of Boldog to that of Beren and Felagund which are not around Doriath. This change is bad and therefore I am happy you catched that edit.

Still Boldog is to be kept, and why not his death at fights around Doriath? That such fights were commen is clear from the Narn were we hear from Beleg and Túrin fighting in Dimbar.
In your editing the 'Whom do ye serve, Light or Mirk?' comes very abrupt. Also why not hold the mention of Lúthien and only skip Morogth interest in her? Sauron is another matter, his interrest could even be a trick just to test his opponents. Therefore I suggest:
Quote:
'Boldog, I heard, was lately slain
warring on the borders of that domain
where Robber Thingol and outlaw folk
cringe and crawl beneath elm and oak
in drear Doriath. Heard ye not then
of that pretty fay, of Lúthien?
BL-SL-05 {Her body is fair, very white and fair.
Morgoth would possess her in his lair.
Boldog he sent, but Boldog was slain:
strange ye were not in Boldog's train.}
Fierce is your chief, his frown is grim.
Little Lúthien! What troubles him?
Why laughs he not to think of his lord
crushing a maiden in his hoard,
that foul should be what once was clean,
that dark should be where light has been?
BL-RG-23; Lines 2507 and 2508; BL-RG-30; BL-RG-35 and BL-RG-38: Done.

BL-RG-40: I like your suggestion, but I for me the last line does now miss one syllable: 'Sauron's bats. What hast thou brought,' is only 7 syllables, or does I miss something?
In addition I would move BL-EX-11 from line 4227 to this passage if we mention her name here.


BL-SL-07: I don't agree to this. We skipt the disire of Morogth to posses Lúthien, but why should he not hear of the wanderings of Lúthien and ponder them and Thingols prupose?

BL-SL-08:
'kraft' for 'craft': Ups, thats my german coming through. Corrected.
{magic}[power]: I think that the change is needed. In Tolkien later writing magic has ever an evil conotation, which is unwanted here. Look at Galadriel reaktion to Sam speaking about 'elven-magic'.
'hallowing from' to 'hollwed by': Done.

BL-EX-17.3: Corrected.

In the third approach I have come through all your comments. I hope my one reactions might be helpfull.

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Old 11-12-2011, 04:17 PM   #33
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Replies up to BL-EX-10 for now:

BL-EX-03: Yes, I think I must have parsed the editing wrong when I wrote that it added a non-rhyming line.

The problem with your suggestion, which would have us use the 'fare' here as a verb rather than a noun, is that we'd have to render it in the past tense ('fared') and thus lose the rhyme. I suppose one could resort to a metrical 'did' to preserve the rhyme:

Quote:
BL-EX-03 <Lay; old Version BL-EX-04 Then {all his}[on a] journey{'s lonely}did he fare,
BL-EX-05 {the}[of] hunger and {the}[of] haggard care,
But of course it's best to avoid metrical 'did' whenever we can. Therefore I'm still tempted to just delete these two lines.

BL-RG-00.5: I don't think the comma is needed there, but it's a small point, and if you prefer it we can keep it.

BL-EX-06: I'd still rather delete these lines, to be honest. Part of it is just that 'like a cloud' seems to me to be a very apt turn of phrase for describing the horrors fading from his mind, but not so much for the horrors being on his mind currently. Beyond that, I don't think it's so easy to eliminate the retrospective character of lines 608-611. Your suggestion to change 'all was stilled' to 'yet unstilled' works fine, but I don't think your lines 608 and 609 work.

BL-RG-08.5: Using 'Noldor' rather disrupts the metre of line 1834, and I'm afraid the rhyme of 'alone' with 'home' doesn't quite work for me. But I agree it would be nice to keep these lines. I'll think about it and see if I can come up with anything.

BL-RG-11.7: You're right that my proposed line 1883 has an extra foot. I think we can edit this more minimally, though:

Quote:
The wars and wandering BL-RG-11.7{of the Gnomes}[that them befell]
this tale {tells not. Far from their homes}has not the space to tell;
{they}They fought and laboured in the North.
Fingon daring alone went forth
and sought for {Maidros}[Maedron] where he hung;
BL-EX-10: Remember, there is no strict requirement for eight syllables per line. Rather, it's four feet per line; each foot prototypically has two syllables, but an unstressed syllable can be left out or added as long as it doesn't significantly disrupt the rhythm of the four stresses. I suggest this:

Quote:
BL-EX-10 <GA But Finrod spoke ere he bade farewell:
'{But this}This I {will }say to{ you, Celegorn}[Celegorm] the fell,
by {the}sight that is given me in this hour, [2160]
{that}by neither {thou}thine nor any power
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin their jewels regain {the Silmarils ever unto world's end}
before the End; all in vain[/u]
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall come indeed 'neath the triple peak, [2165]
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour {you}all
Fëanor's sons, and{ deliver} to other {keeping} care
Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'>
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Old 11-14-2011, 08:58 AM   #34
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BL-EX-03: Agreed. We delet the two lines.

BL-EX-06: To better the image of the cloud we could replace the 'a cloud' by 'dark cloud'. But for to the rest of your doubts I have no answer right now. If I can't find anything better we will delet the passage.

BL-RG-11.7: Agreed, we take:
Quote:
The wars and wandering BL-RG-11.7{of the Gnomes}[that them befell]
this tale {tells not. Far from their homes}has not the space to tell;
they fought and laboured in the North.
Fingon daring alone went forth
and sought for {Maidros}[Maedron] where he hung;
BL-EX-10: We are coming nearer to agreement. I see your point of feet versus syllables. But for me it is very dificult to have less syllables and not feel that this interupts the rythem. More are easier to accept. What about:
Quote:
BL-EX-10 <GA But Felagund spoke ere he bade farewell:
'{But this}This I {will }say to{ you, Celegorn}[Celegorm] the fell,
by the sight{ that is} given me in this hour,
{that}by neither {thou}thine nor any power
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain the Silmarils ever unto world's end.}their Jewels regain
before the End; for all in vain

you swore. And this that we now seek
shall come indeed ‘neath the triple peak,
but never to your hands shall it fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour you all,
the sons of Fëanor;{, and deliver} to other {keeping} care
Lúthien’s{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}it will bear.'>
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Old 11-14-2011, 07:15 PM   #35
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BL-EX-06: I'll see if I can come up with anything more suitable here as well.

BL-EX-10: At least we agree that a regular line of eight syllables is something to strive for when we can. Let me take this line by line.

Quote:
<GA But Felagund spoke ere he bade farewell:
This line is already long, so I think it would be better to use 'Finrod' than 'Felagund' and save a syllable. With that substitution, we then have a nine-syllable line that is regular except for an extra unaccented syllable in the third foot.

Quote:
'{But this}This I {will }say to{ you, Celegorn}[Celegorm] the fell,
Although we have so far agreed on this line, it is not terribly good. The first foot is missing the initial weak stress (which is common and not problematic), but we sneak in two extra syllables in the final foot. Indeed, this line could as easily be parsed as having five feet.

It occurs to me that we could probably do better by making the first two lines:

Quote:
But Finrod, ere he bade farewell,
{But this I say}spoke thus to Celegorm the fell:
And then begin the quote on the next line. This gives both lines the regular, eight syllable pattern: x/ x/ x/ x/ (where x is an unaccented and / an accented syllable).

Quote:
by the sight{ that is} given me in this hour,
I agree that the unedited full line 'by the sight that is given me in this hour' is too long - not because it adds any extra feet but because it has an extra unstressed syllable in each of the first three feet: xx/ xx/ xx/ x/ (if you parse 'hour' as one syllable). Removing 'that is' makes the second foot too short while leaving the first and third too long: xx/ / xx/ x/. But as I consider this more, it strikes me that it parses more naturally as xx/ /x x/ x/. That is, that the second foot has been made a trochee instead of an iamb, a variation well within the idiom. So I think we should take your line here.

Quote:
{that}by neither {thou}thine nor any power
This line is regular and unproblematic.

Quote:
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain the Silmarils ever unto world's end.}their Jewels regain
Another good line (the first foot lacks a weak stress, but that is perfectly fine).

Quote:
before the End; for all in vain
My earlier suggestion, without the 'for', left a third foot without a weak stress, which is not quite as acceptable as a first foot without a weak stress but still not terrible. Your suggestion is fine, though, and certainly improves the rhythm. But I think more natural might be:

Quote:
before the End; yea, all in vain
Quote:
you swore. And this that we now seek
Nice and regular.

Quote:
shall come indeed ‘neath the triple peak,
I think this line is fine, even though it has an extra unstressed syllable in the third foot: x/ x/ xx/ x/.

Quote:
but never to your hands shall it fall.
Here I strongly prefer not to add the 'it'; the line 'but never to your hands shall fall' is perfectly regular, with eight syllables.

Quote:
Nay, your oath shall devour you all,
Even though this line has exactly eight syllables, it is far from regular: / x/ xx/ x/, if you pronounce 'devour' as two syllables. To my ear, 'devour' can pass as either two or three syllables, and my line, which omitted the 'you', was written with the three-syllable pronunciation in mind. But as I think about it, I suspect Tolkien would have parsed it with two syllables - in which case, your line is probably better.

Quote:
the sons of Fëanor;{, and deliver} to other {keeping} care
This line, depending on how you say it, either sneaks an extra two syllables into the second foot, x/ x/xx x/ x/, or ends up with an extra foot, x/ x/ x/ x/ x/, neither of which is good. My proposal was:

Quote:
Fëanor's sons, and {deliver} to other {keeping} care
This reverses the stresses of the first foot and puts an extra unstressed syllable in the third foot: /x x/ xx/ x/. I think on the whole I prefer this.

Quote:
Lúthien’s{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}it will bear.'
I would naturally read this as /xx /x /x /, though I suppose one could more charitably parse it as /x x/ x/ x/. My line was 'Luthien's great bride-price bear', which is / x/ x/ x/. I think better than either of those choices would be:

Quote:
shall Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'
Which is a regular eight syllable line.

So my proposal now is:
Quote:
<GA But Finrod, ere he bade farewell,
{But this I say}spoke thus to Celegorm the fell:
'By the sight{ that is} given me in this hour,
{that}by neither {thou}thine nor any power
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain the Silmarils ever unto world's end.}their Jewels regain
before the End; yea, all in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall come indeed ‘neath the triple peak,
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour you all,
Fëanor's sons, and {deliver} to other {keeping} care
shall Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'>
That looks much improved to me.
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Old 11-15-2011, 06:45 AM   #36
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BL-EX-10: Yes, that is much improved. We will take it.

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Old 12-04-2011, 05:15 PM   #37
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Sorry for the long delay.

I have been thinking a lot about Boldog and the two passages BL-SL-05 and BL-SL-07. I agree in principle on two points: first, that even though the motif of Morgoth's desire to capture Luthien was removed, there is no need to remove the skirmish with Boldog, and second, that it is still possible for Morgoth to hear of Luthien's wanderings and ponder Thingol's purpose.

So I think you're right about BL-SL-07 and I was being over-zealous in my suggestion. But I still have reservations about BL-SL-05. With the removal of Morgoth's desire for Luthien, it seems very strange for Sauron to mention her at all here. In the original, when he imagines Morgoth 'crushing a maiden in his hoard', he is clearly envisioning the intended outcome of Boldog's attack. But if Boldog's attack was just an ordinary border-skirmish, why does Sauron suddenly start talking about Luthien?

I have to admit, I've even been wondering now and then whether it's possible that Boldog's objective of capturing Luthien was merely omitted from later sources rather than rejected. But in the end it's best to err on the side of caution.

One other thing that's been knocking around in my head a bit is whether the note on Boldog from 'Myths Transformed' might have any implications for his role here. In MT, Tolkien first gives 'Boldog' as an example of an Orc whoe lived far longer than the lifespan of Men, but then speculates that 'Boldog' might in fact be a title or the name of an order of Maiar inferior to Balrogs. At first I thought that the first possibility (that Boldog was an Orc-captain who reappears many times over the centuries of the First Age) would preclude his being slain in the fight. But of course, it's possible that this is the last of those appearances. So in the end, I think the note doesn't oblige us to make any changes here.

BL-RG-40: Yes, my line is only seven syllables; the first foot is missing a weak syllable. I have tried to come up with a better line, but I can't. Note that something like this:

Quote:
[Sauron's heralds]. What hast thou brought?
. . . is not, I think, any better, since the first two feet have the weak and strong stresses reversed. But I could live with either.

BL-SL-08: I'm still not quite convinced that 'magic' is unsuitable here, but I suppose we can err on the side of caution and use 'power'.
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:26 AM   #38
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First the easier issues:
BL-RG-40: I agree that 'Saurons' heralds' is also not very good. What about:
Quote:
{Thu's messengers}[Gorthaur's bats]. What hast thou brought,
But reading this again I see that I my have a wrong pronauciation of 'Gor-THAU-r's BATS.' Which most likley is realy 'GOR-thaur's BATS.' But then it is not better than your suggestion.

BL-EX-11.5: Reading more in the Lay I found the word 'magic' so often that it is impossible to remove it everywere. That means it can stand here as well.

BL-SL_05:
Quote:
I have to admit, I've even been wondering now and then whether it's possible that Boldog's objective of capturing Luthien was merely omitted from later sources rather than rejected. But in the end it's best to err on the side of caution.
It might be that Tolkien created a time line problem here. The story in the Lay based on Synopsis V is:

- Beren and Felagund leave Nargothrond
- At the 'turn of summer' Melain tells Lúthien of Berens imprisonment by Sauron (this must be a forsight in any case)
- At 'autumn's wild beginning' Felagund and Beren disguise as Orcs
- Luthien's flight from Doriath
- Morogth hears of here wandering and sents Boldog
- Luthien is captured in Nargothrond
- Thingol prepares an attack on Nargothrond
- Thingol meets Boldogs war-band and crashes it
- Beren and Felagund before Sauron

It did not came to my mind reading the Lay that it had taken Beren and Felagund so long to wander from the source of Narog to the Pass of Sirion. Anyhow it is safest to remove the special mission of Boldog, as we already agreed and it could be that we have found one good reason why Tolkien did remove it.
Quote:
But I still have reservations about BL-SL-05. With the removal of Morgoth's desire for Luthien, it seems very strange for Sauron to mention her at all here. In the original, when he imagines Morgoth 'crushing a maiden in his hoard', he is clearly envisioning the intended outcome of Boldog's attack. But if Boldog's attack was just an ordinary border-skirmish, why does Sauron suddenly start talking about Luthien?
We know that Morgoth heard of Luthiens wandering, so why shouldn't Sauron have heard? And since he is talking about a border skirmish at Doriath why not mention her? We also hear in Sil77 that Sauron and Morgoth have some interest in her:
Quote:
But Lúthien heard his answering voice, and she sang then a song of greater power. The wolves howled, and the isle trembled. Sauron stood in the high tower, wrapped in his black thought ;but he smiled hearing her voice, for he knew that it was the daughter of Melian. The fame of the beauty of Lúthien and the wonder of her song had long gone forth from Doriath; and he thought to make her captive and hand her over to the power of Morgoth, for his reward would be great.
Beside that Sauron is suspicious about them and he tries to teas them to some worng move. Which is exactly what the mention of Luthien did provoke.

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Old 01-22-2013, 08:36 PM   #39
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Don't know if you're still around at all, Findegil, but here are my latest thoughts on unresolved points.

BL-RG-40:
Quote:
But reading this again I see that I my have a wrong pronauciation of 'Gor-THAU-r's BATS.' Which most likley is realy 'GOR-thaur's BATS.' But then it is not better than your suggestion.
Ah, I see the confusion. I had indeed assumed the stress is on the first syllable in 'Gorthaur'. And this is the pronunciation that Encyclopedia of Arda gives, for what that's worth.

So, I think that in terms of stress and syllable-count, 'Sauron' and 'Gorthaur' are identical.

BL-SL-05:
Quote:
We know that Morgoth heard of Luthiens wandering, so why shouldn't Sauron have heard? And since he is talking about a border skirmish at Doriath why not mention her?
It still seems a little awkward to me. I suppose that a train of thought leading from a skirmish on the border of Thingol's realm to Thingol's daughter makes some sense. But what still seems out of place then is:

Quote:
Why laughs he not to think of his lord
crushing a maiden in his hoard,
In the original, he has just been talking about Boldog's mission to bring Luthien to Morgoth. But in our proposed version, no one has yet said anything about her being in Morgoth's hoard. What about:

Quote:
'Boldog, I heard, was lately slain
warring on the borders of that domain
where Robber Thingol and outlaw folk
cringe and crawl beneath elm and oak
in drear Doriath. Heard ye not then
of that pretty fay, of Lúthien?
BL-SL-05 {Her body is fair, very white and fair.
Morgoth would possess her in his lair.
Boldog he sent, but Boldog was slain:
strange ye were not in Boldog's train.}
Fierce is your chief, his frown is grim.
Little Lúthien! What troubles him?
{Why laughs he not to think of his lord
crushing a maiden in his hoard,
that foul should be what once was clean,
that dark should be where light has been?}
Thus we remove the non sequitur but retain the mention of Luthien as a way of eliciting a reaction from Beren.

Also, I think BL-EX-10 can in fact be improved slightly further with:

Quote:
<GA But Finrod, ere he bade farewell,
{But this I say}spoke thus to Celegorm the fell,
by{ the} sight{ that is given me} allowed him in {this} that hour:
{that}By neither {thou}thine nor any power
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain the Silmarils ever unto world's end.}their Jewels regain
before the End; yea, all in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall come {indeed} from 'neath the triple peak,
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour you all,
Fëanor's sons, and {deliver} to other {keeping} care
shall Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'>
This takes ever so slightly more liberty with the text from GA but makes the third and eighth lines of the section better metrically.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:51 PM   #40
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Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Don't know if you're still around at all, Findegil, but here are my latest thoughts on unresolved points.
Yes, I am still around and will gladdly any progress we make.

BL-RG-40: We will stay with Sauron then.

BL-SL-05: Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
In the original, he has just been talking about Boldog's mission to bring Luthien to Morgoth. But in our proposed version, no one has yet said anything about her being in Morgoth's hoard.
True, but then what does the mention of Lúthien mean at all? It is the interest of Morgoth in Lúthien that we need to tease Beren.
I may be do not rightly understand what is the non sequitar that does trouble you.

BL-EX-10: Agreed.

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