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Old 01-24-2013, 02:03 PM   #41
Aiwendil
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Hi, Findegil! Excellent to see you.

Quote:
True, but then what does the mention of Lúthien mean at all? It is the interest of Morgoth in Lúthien that we need to tease Beren.
I may be do not rightly understand what is the non sequitar that does trouble you.
As I see it, in the original, the logic of the passage is this:

1. Sauron mentions Boldog's mission to capture Luthien and bring her to Morgoth.
2. (It is implied that) Beren reacts visibly to this.
3. Sauron asks why he reacts thus to the thought of Luthien as Morgoth's captive.

But what we have is now:

1. Sauron mentions the skirmish on the border of Doriath, which leads him to mention Luthien.
2. (It is implied that) Beren reacts visibly.
3. Sauron asks why he should react thus to the thought of Luthien as Morgoth's captive.

But in the latter case, what Sauron says in 3 makes no sense. No one has mentioned the idea of Luthien being Morgoth's captive, so why would Sauron think that this is what Beren is reacting to?

With my last proposal, the idea I had in mind was that Beren is no longer reacting explicitly to the thought of Luthien as Morgoth's captive. Rather, he's simply visibly affected by the mention of the name Luthien, particularly coming from Sauron; and Sauron notices his reaction.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:24 AM   #42
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Maybe we removed then more then necessary. As I already argued above we have evidence from Sil77 that the interest of Morgoth in Lúthien still existed:
Quote:
But Lúthien heard his answering voice, and she sang then a song of greater power. The wolves howled, and the isle trembled. Sauron stood in the high tower, wrapped in his black thought; but he smiled hearing her voice, for he knew that it was the daughter of Melian. The fame of the beauty of Lúthien and the wonder of her song had long gone forth from Doriath; and he thought to make her captive and hand her over to the power of Morgoth, for his reward would be great.
With this in mind probably we should make it thus:

1. Sauron mentions the skirmish on the border of Doriath, which leads him to mention Luthien.
2. (It is implied that) Beren reacts visibly.
3. Sauron father elaborates which interests Morgoth would have in Lúthien to see Beren's reaction.
4. Beren reacts grim.
3. Sauron asks why he should react thus to the thought of Luthien as Morgoth's captive. And goes even on teasing them farther.

Leading to:
Quote:
'Boldog, I heard, was lately slain
warring on the borders of that domain
where Robber Thingol and outlaw folk
cringe and crawl beneath elm and oak {2130}
in drear Doriath. Heard ye not then
of that pretty fay, of Lúthien?
Her body is fair, very white and fair.
Morgoth would possess her in his lair.
BL-SL-05 {Boldog he sent, but Boldog was slain: {2135}
strange ye were not in Boldog's train.}
Fierce is your chief, his frown is grim.
Little Lúthien! What troubles him?
Why laughs he not to think of his lord
crushing a maiden in his hoard, {2140}
that foul should be what once was clean,
that dark should be where light has been?
For us who have learned all that story of Boldog and his mission to catch Lúthien by heart, the hint is great enough that we build the connection, but is that true for a reader that does not have our background knowledge from HoM-E?

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Old 01-25-2013, 02:24 PM   #43
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Okay, I like this last suggestion. It seems that you're right: the text of the '77 suggests that the motif of Morgoth's desire for Luthien was retained, even when the particular mission of Boldog was dropped. So I think at last we have agreement here.

I have quite lost track of whether there were other unresolved issues in this chapter - glancing back over the last few posts, I don't see any. If not, I think we're done with round 2 of Beren and Luthien. I know I have notes on further issues in other completed chapters; I will dig those out, review them, and post.

Last edited by Aiwendil; 01-25-2013 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:26 AM   #44
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I also looked into the points you commented on and found 2 small issues that are not finially discussed:

BL-RG-08.5:
Quote:
There countless torches fitfully
did start and twinkle, as BL-RG-08.5 {the Gnomes}[Noldor] alone
were gathered to their fading {homes}home, [1835]
and thronged the long and winding stair {1600}
that led to the wide echoing square.
You suggested to skip all 4 lines because you did not find the ryhme of alone - home god enough. We both said we would look for a better solution. Did you find any thing? For me alone - home would work, but if you would better like to skip the lines we will do.

BL-SL-07:
Quote:
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Then came word {3665}
most passing strange of Lúthien [3945]
wild-wandering by wood and glen,
and Thingol's purpose long he weighed,
and wondered, thinking of that maid.
BL-SL-07 {so fair, so frail. A captain dire, {3670}
Boldog, he sent with sword and fire
to Doriath's march; but battle fell
sudden upon him: news to tell
never one returned of Boldog's host,
and Thingol humbled Morgoth's boast.} {3675}
Then his heart with doubt and wrath was burned:
new tidings of dismay he learned,
You suggested to skip Luthien in this passage. But I don't agree to this. Seeing what we have done in the case of BL-SL-05 were we even kept Morgoth diseiring Lúthien, I see no reason why we should delet his interrest here.

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Old 01-28-2013, 08:04 PM   #45
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Thanks for reminding me of those two unresolved points.

BL-RG-08.5: Well, I've stared at the lines again for a long while, and I still can't come up with anything. But when I suggested deleting the lines, I seem to have missed the fact that we would have to delete five lines and thus leave an unrhymed line. We might get by with:

Quote:
The mists were mantled round the towers {1595}
of the Elves' white city by the sea{.},
{There countless}now lit by torches fitfully.
{did start and twinkle, as the Gnomes
were gathered to their fading homes, [1835]
and thronged the long and winding stair {1600}
that led to the wide echoing square.}

There Fëanor mourned his jewels divine,
BL-SL-07: Yes, I think you've convinced me that this element was not rejected after all. So we can leave this the way we had it.
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:56 AM   #46
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Okay. I agree to both points. It seems we are done with this chapter for the second run.

I will see that I can come up with a corrected version in private forum soon.

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Findegil

P.S.: Not too soon as it seems. I have to renumber the lines, which is a diligent but routine piece of work.

Last edited by Findegil; 02-04-2013 at 03:57 AM.
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Old 09-14-2015, 05:36 AM   #47
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How about this:

Quote:
The Quest of the Silmaril 2

...
Thus Thingol learned that Lúthien was again fled, and that Celegorm and Curufin were driven from Nargothrond. <In that time Celebrimbor the son of Curufin repudiated the deeds of his father, and remained with Orodreth.> Then his counsel was in doubt, for he had not the strength to assail the sons of Fëanor; but he sent messengers to Himring to summon their aid in seeking for Lúthien, since Celegorm had not sent her to the house of her father, nor had he kept her safely.
I think it desirable to retain in some way the mention of Celebrimbor repenting of Curufin's deeds, since it is hard to incorporate it into the Lay itself (unless you already did that).
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Old 09-14-2015, 12:31 PM   #48
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I agree that it would be nice to mention Celebrimbor, but this position is not good. It will feel like an after thought. And it breaks the flow of the passage badly.

I would rather try to work it into the poem, when Orodreth has proclaimed the ban for the brethern:
Quote:
'We will remember it,' they said,
and turned upon their heels, and sped, {80}
saddled their horses, trussed their gear, [3175]
and went with hound and bow and spear,
alone; for none of all the folk
would follow them. BL-EX-10.5 <SIL77 based on a late Note In that time revoke
Celebrimbor {the son of Curufin repudiated} the deeds of{ his father} Curufin,
his father,
and no longer followed him, [3180]
but remained in Nargothrond when the brethern broke.>
Ere sunset thy rode, no{No} word they spoke,
but sounded horns, and rode away {85}
like wind at end of stormy day.
My be a bit clumsy, but probably we will find help in bettering my verses.

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Last edited by Findegil; 09-15-2015 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 09-14-2015, 02:22 PM   #49
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Silmaril

Sorry, but I am a total idiot when it comes to poetry, so I want to remove myself from the poetry.

Another thing - it would be nice to introduce Angrist somehow into the tale.

And another thing, lol - wasn't it Curufin who was in lust with Lúthien in the Lay of Leithian? In the later writings it was Celegorm - in my version I simply changed Celegorm to Curufin and vice-versa.
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Old 09-15-2015, 10:43 AM   #50
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Angrist looks like an easy task:
Quote:
Then Beren did Curufin release; [3340]
but took his horse and coat of mail,
and took his knifeBL-EX-10.6<QS36 , Agrist,>{there }gleaming pale,
hanging sheathless, wrought of steel.
No flesh could leeches ever heal {3055}
that point had pierced; for long ago [3345]
BL-EX-10.7<QS36 Telchar>{the dwarves} had made it, singing slow
enchantments, where {their}his hammer{s} fell
in Nogrod ringing like a bell.
About Curufin and Celegrom and who of the brethern proposed to marriage Lúthien: Curufin had already a son, so he could not propse the marriage, but I never have read the Lay in that seens. Could you give us a quotation were that is stated?

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Old 09-15-2015, 11:58 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
About Curufin and Celegrom and who of the brethern proposed to marriage Lúthien: Curufin had already a son, so he could not propse the marriage, but I never have read the Lay in that seens. Could you give us a quotation were that is stated?
From the The War of the Jewels - The Grey Annals:

Quote:
§181 Lúthien desired to follow Beren, but was held captive by her father, until she escaped and passed into the wild. There she was found by Celegorn and Curufin, and taken to Nargothrond. And evil entered into the hearts of the brethren, and they designed to seize the kingship of Nargothrond, and wed Lúthien to Celegorn and compel Thingol to alliance, and so make the sons of Fëanor the greatest House of the Noldor again.
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Old 09-15-2015, 12:25 PM   #52
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It is clear that Celegorm is the one in the end. But your comment looked like it is Curufin in the Lay, which I can not find their.

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