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Old 03-23-2004, 09:52 PM   #81
Petty Dwarf
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I have a few more thoughts before the entire matter is settled.

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§ 14... But {thou must understand, Ęlfwine,} that when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Ilśvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty of the Holy Ones bent all their thought and their desire towards that place. And of these Melkor was the chief, even as he was in the beginning the greatest of the Ainur who took part in the Music. And he feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Ilśvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him. But he desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, envying the gifts with which Ilśvatar promised to endow them; and he wished himself to have subjects and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills.
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§21 Thus it came to pass that of the Holy Ones some abode still with Ilśvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilśvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilśvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should henceforth be contained and bounded in the World, and be within it for ever, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore{, Ęlfwine,} we name them the Valar, the Powers of the World.
Aiwendil wrote:
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These clearly suggest that some or much of the surrounding text is the invention of Pengolodh. That is - surely he is not simply reading Rumil's text and adding only phrases like "thou must understand, Aelfwine". He is giving an oral account, no doubt based closely on Rumil's written account, but not matching it word for word. We have so far ignored the fact that in the old version it was an oral account and in our new version it is a written one; we have not tried to wipe out Pengolodh's embellishments and reconstruct Rumil's written text because there is no way of establishing which words exactly Rumil used. Instead, we have more or less pretended that Pengolodh's oral version is exactly Rumil's written version, with only obvious first and second person phrases removed.
These could suggest Pendološ was adding on to Rśmil at those points, but I find that doubtful. They contain big sections of the general plot which must have first occured in Rśmil's version, or else his version was severly lacking. I think those addresses to Ęlfwine were used for emphasis, and to convey the feel of conversation. It's not the same situation as this Yavanna line. We know for sure it was not in Rśmil's.


Quote:
But think not, Ęlfwine, that the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilśvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilśvatar.
Petty Dwarf wrote:
Quote:
I think keeping the sentence intact as a footnote is best because the intent of the sentence is expressing the intensely personal. Pengološ's own experience of having seen a Vala in this beyond-Treebeard shape was so striking that he had to interject it here.
Aiwendil responded:
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I'm not sure that this is relevant, but I disagree. I don't see the passage as having fundamentally to do with Pengolodh at all, but rather with the Valar.
This is essentially a matter of semantics, but I don't think either of us is wrong. The example Pengološ gives illustrates an essential facet of the nature of the Valar told in the previous sentence: they they are not bound by any one shape. But he goes further by giving an example he himself had experienced. He tells Ęlfwine both what he saw (And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree) which sufficiently illustrates the point that the Valar can clothe themselves in shapes different than elf or man. He then goes further, adding his appreciation of that form (the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilśvatar.) which is a personal judgement based on the experience. Another person, an orc let's say, might have a different judgement.

The entire passage has a great deal to do with Pengološ and the Ainulindalė itself. It gives us a glimpse of Pengološ's character we may lose if we take the experience away from him. CT deleted the character completely, we should try not to. That Pengološ saw Yavanna in tree-form we know. But was he the only one or was he with others? We can't answer that with the information we have. The "some" with which you would replace "I myself" does that in effect.
Also he saw Yavanna "long years agone": an indication that this incident, and maybe even the Rśmilian Ainulindalė existed far earlier than this account we're creating.

Remember, Rśmil and his Ainulindalė never left Valinor. The version Tolkien wrote was an oral retelling of that by Pengološ sometime after the Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain. TftE's version is based on the assumption that this is a work translated by Bilbo in Rivendell, which must have been written by an Exile.
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Old 02-16-2005, 03:14 PM   #82
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Did I miss some thing?
When the text of Antione apeared (for a view days), I thought that the all problems we had with the Ainulindalė were settled. But revisiting this thread I think that the issue of the Yavanna as a tree was not finally resolved. With the text readed (hopefully) as Antione did provide it, are there still no renegades for a such a elegant conclusion as a footnote did provide?

And reading the text and its companions in the HoME I found a heavy problem: The First battle of the Valar as told in the Ainulindalė was later changed in The Annals of Aman. Beside the fact that the discription in AAm is much more elaborated then in the Ainulindalė and thus sweets the overall goal of the project better there are some big differences:
- Utumno was in AAm build before the assult on Almaren and the Lamps.
- The Valar did pursuit Melkor at once, but cuold not overcome him. They did come out of Valinor at Melkor for the first time at the War of Powers.

Beside these project issuse I have a question of understanding: As its stands in the Sil77 and the Ainulindalė I got the understanding that Melkor at first did dispute Manwė's Kingship and was driven from the World. Then he returned and the First war of the Valar occured which was ended when Tulkas chased Melkor again from the world.
But now after reading all the texts again I think that view was wrong. It seems to me know that the end of Rśmils Ainulindalė, the addition Pengolodh and the first §§ in Of Valinor and the two Trees do discribe the same event thrice: the First war of the Valar that following the Annals of Aman lasted 1500 VY before Tulkas came in and drove Melkor out.
Do you think that I have got the story right now or do you think that Melkor left the world two times?

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Old 02-26-2005, 05:37 PM   #83
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Aside from the problem of „Yavanna as a tree“ I have already mentioned in my last post the changed course of the story in the first war of the Valar. I this post I will give the changes that in my view are necessary. I am not sure that we can stick to the assumption that what we produce here is the existing Middle-Earth version of the Ainulidalė. It seems necessar yto me to take up big parts of the Annal of Aman (Aam) to creat the text that serves our over-all goal (a most rich and canon friendly Version of all the story). But this issue seems to me not more than a philosophical discussion. Anyway if the assumption that the text has existence in Middle-Earth does hinder us to solve a canonical problem or take up more rich versions of the story we must skip that assumption.

Since the issue is concerned with the discription of the first war of the Valar, I will start my discussion with §31 in Pengološ’s addition:
Quote:
§31 This tale {I have heard also among}<was learned from> the lore masters [of the Noldor] in ages past. {For they tell us that the}
The
war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth, and for long Melkor had the upper hand. Ai-1W-01 <AAm And Melkor wrought great ruin with fire and deadly cold and marred all that the other Valar made.> But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in Ai-1W-02{the far heaven}<AAm distant regions of Eä> that there was battle in the Little Kingdom. And he came like a storm of laughter and loud song, and Earth shook under his great golden feet. So came Tulkas, the Strong and the Merry, whose anger passeth like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it{.} Ai-1W-03 <AAm , but he turned a face of' anger towards Melkor; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his mirth,>{And Melkor was shaken by the laughter of Tulkas,} and fled from the Earth; and there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after. {In that time the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains, and they planted seeds; and since, when the fires had been subdued or buried beneath the primeval hills, there was need of Light for the enlightening of the Middle-earth which they had built amid the Encircling Seas, and they set the lamps upon high pillars, loftier far than any of the mountains of the later days. And one they raised near to the North of Middle-earth, and it was named Foros; and the other they raised in the South, and it was called Hyaras. And the light of the lamps of the Valar went out over the Earth so that all was lit as it were in a changeless day. Then the seeds that the Valar had planted began swiftly to sprout and to burgeon, and there arose a multitude of growing things great and small, grasses, and flowers of many colours, and trees whose blossom was like snow upon the mountains but whose feet were wrapped in the shadow of their mighty limbs. And beasts and birds came forth and dwelt in the green plains or in the rivers and the lakes, or walked in the darkness of the woods. And richest was the growth of plant and beast in the midmost parts of the Earth where the lights of both lamps met and were blended. And there upon the isle of Almaren in a great lake was the first dwelling of the gods, when all things were new, and green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers.}
In that time the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains, and Yavanna planted at last the seeds that she had long devised. And since, when the fires had been subdued or buried beneath the primeval hills, there was need of light, Aulė wrought two mighty lamps for the enlightenment of the Middle-earth which he had built amid the Encircling Seas. Then Varda filled the lamps and Manwė hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are any mountains of the later days. One lamp they raised near to the North of Middle-earth, and it was named Illuin; and the other was raised in the South, and it was named Ormal; and the light of the Lamps of the Valar flowed out over the Earth, so that all was lit as it were in a changeless Day.
Then the seeds that Yavanna had sown began swiftly to sprout and to burgeon, and there arose a multitude of growing things great and small, mosses and grasses, and great ferns, and trees whose tops were crowned with cloud as they were living mountains, but whose feet were wrapped in a green twilight. And beasts {[struck out: and birds]} came forth and dwelt in the grassy plains, or in the rivers and the lakes, or walked in the shadow of the woods. As yet no flower had bloomed nor any bird had sung, for these things waited still their time in the bosom of {Palśrien}[Kementįri]; but wealth there was of her imagining, and nowhere more rich than in the midmost parts of the Earth, where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. And there upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, and new-made green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers{; and they were long content}. Ai-1W-04 <AAm But the Valar were seldom there gathered in company, for ever they would fare abroad in Arda, each in his own business.
And it came to pass that at last the Valar were content, and they were minded to rest a while from labour and watch the growth and unfolding of the things that they had devised and begun. Therefore Manwe ordained a great feast, and summoned all the Valar and the queens of the Valar unto Almaren, together with all their folk. And they came at his bidding; but Aule, it is said, and Tulkas were weary; for the craft of Aule and the strength of Tulkas had been at the service of all without ceasing in the days of their labour.
Now Melkor knew of all that was done; for even then he had secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause, and of these the chief, as after became known, was Sauron, a great craftsman of the household of Aule. And afar off in the dark places Melkor was filled with hatred, being jealous of the work of his peers, whom he desired to make subject to himself. Therefore he gathered to himself spirits out of the voids of Ea that he had perverted to his service, and he deemed himself strong. And seeing now his time he drew near again unto Arda, and looked down upon it, and the beauty of the Earth in its Spring filled him the more with hate.
Now therefore the Valar were gathered upon Almaren and feasted and made merry, fearing no evil, and because of the light of llluin they did not perceive the shadow in the North that was cast from afar by Melkor; for he was grown dark as the Night of the Void. And it is sung that in that feast of the Spring of Arda Tulkas espoused Nessa the sister of Orome, and Vana robed her in her flowers, and she danced before the Valar upon the green grass of Almaren.
Then Tulkas slept, being weary and content, and Melkor deemed that his hour had come. And he passed, therefore, over the Walls of the Night with his host, and he came to Middle-earth in the North; and the Valar were not aware of him.
Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the light of Illuin was dim. That stronghold was named Utumno. And though the Valar knew nought of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence, and the Spring of Arda was marred >{
§32 But at length Melkor returned in secret, and far in the North, where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim, he made a hidden dwelling. Thence he sent forth his power and turned again to evil much that had been well begun}; so that green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, and the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood. {And when he saw his time, Melkor revealed himself, and he made war again on the Valar his brethren; and he threw down the Lamps, and a new darkness fell, and all growth ceased. And in the fall of the Lamps, which were very great, the seas were lifted up in fury, and many lands were drowned. Then the Valar were driven from their abode in Almaren, and they removed from the Middle-earth, and made their home in the uttermost West, in Aman the Blessed, and they fortified it against the onslaught of Melkor. Many mansions they built in that land upon the borders of the world which is since called Valinor, whose western marges fall into the mists of the Outer Sea, and whose fences against the East are the Pelóre Valion, the Mountains of Valinor, highest upon Earth.
Thence they came at last with a great host against Melkor, to wrest from him the rule of the Middle-earth; but he now had grown in malice and in strength and was master of many monsters and evil things, so that they could not at that time overcome him utterly, nor take him captive; and he escaped from their wrath, and lay hid until they had departed. Then he returned to his dwelling in the North, and there built for himself a mighty fortress, and delved great caverns underground secure from assault, and he gathered to him many lesser powers that seeing his greatness and growing strength were now willing to serve him; and the name of that evil fastness was Utumno.} Ai-1W-05 <AAm Then the Valar knew indeed that Melkor was at work again, and they sought for his hiding-place. But Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared. And he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and he cast down their pillars, and broke their lamps. Then in the overthrow of the mighty pillars lands were broken and seas arose in tumult; and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.
In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwe as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas. But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid. And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterward they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Iluvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the Valar upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and the gods had no abiding place upon the face of the earth. Therefore they removed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, which was westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the world; for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night. But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West; and since Melkor had returned to Middle-earth, and they could not yet overcome him, the Valar fortified their dwelling, and upon the shores of the Sea they raised the Pelori, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon earth. And above all the mountains of the Pelori was that height which was called Taniquetil, upon whose summit Manwe set his throne. But behind the walls of the Pelori the Valar established their mansions and their domain in that region which is called Valinor. There in the Guarded Realm they gathered great store of light and all the fairest things that were saved from the ruin; and many others yet fairer they made anew, and Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed and holy, for the gods dwelt there, and there nought faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.
Therefore the Valar and all their folk were joyful again, and for long they were well content, and they came seldom over the mountains to the Outer Lands; and Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in Ea.>
From §33 to the end the Ainulidalė can stand as it was edited by Antione. The dubbleing of the second part of §31 came to pass by the changes from Ainulidalė C to Ainulindalė D and is only a small error in the editing process, I have corrected it.
Some remarks to my changes:
Ai-1W-01:
This is only a addition for a more detailed story.

Ai-1W-02:
I replaced “in far Heaven” because it seems to me that it could refer to the Timless Halls of the Ainur. The phrase from AAm is at least much claerer in this respect.

Ai-1W-03
I foundthat it is significant that in AAm Melkor is afraid of Tulkas mirth and anger.

Ai-1W-04
Here we start with the real points. The story of the feast is missing in the Ainulindalė. And also the spies of Melkor with Sauron as their chief. Also we must have the building of Utumno before the war.

Ai-1W-05
In the Ainulindalė the war was much more successful for Melkor: He drove out the Valar that could not even overcome him when they a bit later returned from Valinor. We must provide the later story were Melkor was succesful only in distroying what his brethern had made, but was himself driven into hidding at Utumno by Tulkas and that the Valar could not overcome him because they needed much of their power for the saving of their works.

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Old 02-28-2005, 10:22 AM   #84
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I think you have discovered the reason that CRT chopped off the end of the Ainulindale and moved that material into "Of the Beginning of Days".

I wonder if this may be the best approach for us as well.
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Old 03-01-2005, 03:21 AM   #85
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Yes this might have been the reason for Christopher Tolkien to remove this part of the Ainulindalė. But do we follow him in this move? If we do so it will become even harder to make the additions of Pengološ to the text of the Music of the Ainur work.
This was also the reason why Antione wanted to join the discussion of the first chapter Of Valinor and the two Trees / Of the Beginning of Days with that of the Ainulindalė and the Valaquenta.

We must ask ourself why did JRR Tolkien place the story of the first War of the Valar at that place and not at the beginning of the Quenta Silmarillion.
As JRR Tolkien left it, the Quenta Silmarillion starts after a short intro with the creation of the Trees which were the ultimate source of the light of the Silmaril. I think that this was desiered by JRR Tolkien.

But that does not force us to do the same. We have already left the real goal and structer of the Quenta Silmarillion far behind by taking up very elaborated tales that do not premarily deal with the story of the Silmarils (e.g. the Narn i chīn Hśrin).

But this additions in the later course of the Quenta Silmarillion we will mostly indicat, would we do the same here? I don't think we could do that with out some very artifical source info. Thus I think the First War is better left were it is, an addition to the Ainulindalė "told" by Pengološ. This would also in some degree prevent the misunderstanding that I had when reading the Sil77, of Melkor leaving Arda two times.

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Old 03-20-2005, 10:54 AM   #86
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Having now read your additions from the Annals, I tend to agree with them. Unfortunately, I still believe that we cannot use the Yavanna as a tree line in a footnote. I think that if it is not in the main text, then we should drop it.
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Old 03-01-2006, 02:25 PM   #87
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It might seem that I am turning up ervry old thread I can find, but well I found a problem:
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§42 ... For the Eldar die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered in the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence often they return and are reborn among their children. ...
The concept of rebirth was later skip by Tolkien (see "The History of Middle-Earth"; Volume 10: "Morgoth's Ring"; Part Four:"Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth"; Appendix: "'The Converse of Manwė and Eru'" and the later conception of Elvish reincarnation).
I think we should change the sentence thus:
Quote:
§42 ... For the Eldar die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered in the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence often they return and are {reborn among their children}[reincarnated]. ...
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Old 09-04-2006, 12:04 PM   #88
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I found some passage worth considering:
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§23 So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of the Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilśvatar. And in this work the chief part was taken by Manwė and Aulė and Ulmo. But Melkor, too, was there from the first, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it, if he might, to his own desires and purposes. AINU_08.5 <MT, 2 After the Valar, who before were the Ainur of the Great Song, entered into Ea, those who were the noblest among them and understood most of the mind of Iluvatar sought amid the immeasurable regions of the Beginning for that place where they should establish the Kingdom of Arda in time to come. And when they had chosen that point and region where it should be, they began the labours that were needed. Others there were, countless to our thought though known each and numbered in the mind of Iluvatar, whose labour lay elsewhere and in other regions and histories of the Great Tale, amid stars remote and worlds beyond the reach of the furthest thought. But of these others we know nothing and cannot know, though the Valar of Arda, maybe, remember them all.
Chief of the Valar of Arda was he whom the Eldar afterwards named Manwe, the Blessed: the Elder King, since he was the first of all kings in {[Arda >] }Ea. Brother to him was Melkor, the potent, and he had, as has been told, fallen into pride and desire of his own dominion. Therefore the Valar avoided him, and began the building and ordering of Arda without him. For which reason it is said that whereas there is now great evil in Arda and many things therein are at discord, so that the good of one seemeth to be the hurt of another, nonetheless the foundations of this world are good, and it turns by nature to good, healing itself from within by the power that was set there in its making; and evil in Arda would fail and pass away if it were not renewed from without: that is: that comes from wills and being{ [sic]} that are other than Arda itself.
And as is known well, the prime among these is Melkor. Measureless as were the regions of Ea, yet in the Beginning, where he could have been Master of all that was done - for there were many of the Ainur of the Song willing to follow him and serve him, if he called - still he was not content. And he sought ever for Arda and Manwe, his brother, begrudging him the kingship, small though it might seem to his desire and his potency; for he knew that to that kingship Iluvatar designed to give the highest royalty in Ea, and under the rule of that throne to bring forth the Children of God. And in his thought which deceived him, for the liar shall lie unto himself, he believed that over the Children he might hold absolute sway and be unto them sole lord and master, as he could not be to spirits of his own kind, however subservient to himself. For they knew that the One Is, and must assent to Melkor's rebellion of their own choice; whereas he purposed to withhold from the Children this knowledge and be for ever a shadow between them and the light.
As a shadow Melkor did not then conceive himself. For in his beginning he loved and desired light, and the form that he took was exceedingly bright; and he said in his heart: 'On such brightness as I am the Children shall hardly endure to look; therefore to know of aught else or beyond or even to strain their small minds to conceive of it would not be for their good.' But the lesser brightness that stands before the greater becomes a darkness. And Melkor was jealous, therefore, of all other brightnesses, and wished to take all light unto himself. Therefore Iluvatar, at the entering in of the Valar into Ea, added a theme to the Great Song which was not in it at the first Singing, and he called one of the Ainur to him. Now this was that Spirit which afterwards became Varda (and taking female form became the spouse of Manwe). To Varda Iluvatar said: 'I will give unto thee a parting gift. Thou shalt take into Ea a light that is holy, coming new from Me, unsullied by the thought and lust of Melkor, and with thee it shall enter into Ea, and be in Ea, but not of Ea.' Wherefore Varda is the most holy and revered of all the Valar, and those that name the light of Varda name the love of Ea that Eru has, and they are afraid, less only to name the One. Nonetheless this gift of Iluvatar to the Valar has its own peril, as have all his free gifts: which is in the end no more than to say that they play a part in the Great Tale so that it may be complete; for without peril they would be without power, and the giving would be void.
When therefore at last Melkor discovered the abiding place of Manwe and his friends he went thither in great haste, as a blazing fire. And finding that already great labours had been achieved without his counsel, he was angered, and desired to undo what was done or to alter it according to his own mind>; and he kindled great fires. When therefore Earth was young and full of flame Melkor coveted it, and he said to the Valar: 'This shall be my own kingdom! And I name it unto myself!'
§24 But Manwė was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilśvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second Theme that Ilśvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor; and he called unto himself others of his kin and many spirits both greater and less, and they went down into the fields of Aman and aided Manwė, lest Melkor should hinder the fulfilment of their labour for ever, and the Earth should wither ere it flowered. And Manwė said unto Melkor: 'This kingdom thou shalt not take for thine own, wrongfully, for many others have laboured here no less than thou.' And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar. AINU-08.7 <MT; 2 But as is elsewhere written Melkor was at that time defeated with the aid of Tulkas (who was not among those who began the building of Ea) and driven out again into the Void that lay about Arda. This is named the First Battle; and though Manwe had the victory, great hurt was done to the work of the Valar> {, and}. But for a time Melkor departed and withdrew to other regions and did there what he would, but he did not put the desire of the kingdom of Arda from his heart.
and
Quote:
§32 But at length Melkor returned in secret, and far in the North, where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim, he made a hidden dwelling. Thence he sent forth his power and turned again to evil much that had been well begun}; so that green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, and the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood. {And when he saw his time, Melkor revealed himself, and he made war again on the Valar his brethren; and he threw down the Lamps, and a new darkness fell, and all growth ceased. And in the fall of the Lamps, which were very great, the seas were lifted up in fury, and many lands were drowned. Then the Valar were driven from their abode in Almaren, and they removed from the Middle-earth, and made their home in the uttermost West, in Aman the Blessed, and they fortified it against the onslaught of Melkor. Many mansions they built in that land upon the borders of the world which is since called Valinor, whose western marges fall into the mists of the Outer Sea, and whose fences against the East are the Pelóre Valion, the Mountains of Valinor, highest upon Earth.
Thence they came at last with a great host against Melkor, to wrest from him the rule of the Middle-earth; but he now had grown in malice and in strength and was master of many monsters and evil things, so that they could not at that time overcome him utterly, nor take him captive; and he escaped from their wrath, and lay hid until they had departed. Then he returned to his dwelling in the North, and there built for himself a mighty fortress, and delved great caverns underground secure from assault, and he gathered to him many lesser powers that seeing his greatness and growing strength were now willing to serve him; and the name of that evil fastness was Utumno.} Ai-1W-04.5 <MT; 2 The Valar therefore, when they became aware by the signs of evil that were seen upon Earth that Melkor had stolen back, sought in vain for him, though Tulcas and Orome went wide over Middle-earth even to the uttermost East. When they perceived that Melkor would now turn darkness and night to his purposes, as he had aforetime sought to wield flame, they were grieved; for it was a part of their design that there should be change and alteration upon Earth, and neither day perpetual nor night without end.[footnote: For it is indeed of the nature of Ea and the Great History that naught may stay unchanged in time, and things which do so, or appear to do so, or endeavour to remain so, become a weariness, and are loved no longer (or are at best unheeded).] For by Night the Children of Arda should know Day, and perceive and love Light; and yet Night should also in its kind be good and blessed, being a time of repose, and of inward thought; and a vision also of things high and fair that are beyond Arda, but are veiled by the splendour of Anar. But Melkor would make it a time of peril unseen, of fear without form, an uneasy vigil; or a haunted dream, leading through despair to the shadow of Death.> Ai-1W-05 <AAm But Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared. And he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and he cast down their pillars, and broke their lamps. Then in the overthrow of the mighty pillars lands were broken and seas arose in tumult; and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.
As an aside remark for all that still read once and again here: I am still working in the background. When the project comes back to life again I have some drafts ready. Chapters 1 and an 2 are ready as drafts and I am working in chapter 3 in the moment. Since as a rule I have much more off-line time then on-line time to work on the project, it is much easier to make drafts for new chapters than to produce Appendices from the discussion of chapters that we have finished. Nothless I will try to get my hands on this buissnes as soon I get a bit more free time on-line.

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Old 02-13-2007, 02:04 AM   #89
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I bring this old thread up because I think it is the Ainulindalė that we should finish next.

As fare as I can see there are the following problems left:

- Yavanna as a tree. We still have no solution for this. I have to look into this again before I restart any discussion on this topic.
- The placing in our text of the first war: Here at the end of the Ainulindalė or at the beginning of the Silmarillion.
- All the changes introduce by me named Ai-xx-yy. Maédhros did agree to some but not to all. What about the rest and what is about your oppion, Aiwendil.

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Old 03-04-2007, 07:48 AM   #90
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Aiwendil, Maedhros are you still with me in this project?

I will break another lance for the footnote.

If we consider the original tradition of the text it is like this:
- Rumil writes the Ainulindalė in Valinor.
- Pengološ reads the Ainulindalė in Valinor.
- Pengološ makes a copy out of memory of Ainulindalė in exile.
- Pengološ tells the Ainulindalė and his additions to Ęlfwine.
- Ęlfwine makes a translation of the Ainulindalė obviously with the copy of Pengološ in front, but he adds the additions and the frame work of the talk he had with Pengološ.

In this circumstances the footnote to §19 about the end of the vision of the Valar before the dominion of Men started must either be an after thought of Ęlfwine of an verbal aside of Pengološ which came to Ęlfwines memory only after he had finished that passage or a later instruction by Pengološ when he had read the text for correction or a footnote in Pengološ copy to make clear that this was not Rumils original text.

Under all this conditions I assume that Pengološ did read Ęlfwines text and did in that way sanction both the footnote to § 19 and the written account of his sight of Yavanna as a tree.

Since we have skipped Ęlfwine the tradition of the text must be different:
- Rumil writes the Ainulindalė in Valinor.
- Pengološ reads the Ainulindalė in Valinor.
- Pengološ makes a copy out of memory of Ainulindalė in exile.
- Bilbo reads the copy of Pengološ and makes a translation.

Since we know from late sources that Pengološ left Middle-earth in the middle of the second age we can be sure that he did not speak with Bilbo. Therefore we must either assume that:
a) Pengološ made the additions to Rumils work himself or
b) Pengološ wrote other works which Bilbo combined in his translation or
c) we have another step in the tradition of the text which is similar to Ęlfwine, meaning that this unknown scribe talked to Pengološ, got instructions from him and made the additions to Rumils text when he made a copy.

Under assumption a) the footnote to §19 and the addition of the early history of the Valar in Arda would mean that Pengološ found these information essential enough to add them to Rumils work.

Under assumption b) Bilbo would be the one to make the footnote and the addition in order to provide the right authorship to the information.

Under assumption c) our text would be a bit artificial since we are only forced to take out frame work of talk because we do not know the scribe by name. Now the footnote to §19 would have again the same meaning as in the old tradition of the text.

It is only under assumption c) that I can see a good reason not to provide the Yavanna as a tree episode in another footnote similar to that in §19. Since here it would be a change of a spoken word of Pengološ to a written one.

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Old 03-17-2007, 08:59 AM   #91
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Having given all this a little thought, I find myself wondering: why are we trying to create a veritable, "realistic" Ainulindale when, as Findegil has pointed out, we long ago decided not to create a "real" Quenta Silmarillion? Many of the issues we seem to be dealing with here arise largely or entirely from our demanding that the text we produce be the authentic text produced by a scribe in Middle-earth. Findegil seems already to have hit upon this, but I missed the point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
I am not sure that we can stick to the assumption that what we produce here is the existing Middle-Earth version of the Ainulidalė.
Suppose we were to drop this requirement. Then I think we would have solutions to both major issues:

1. The placement of the first war - the only difficulty here, as I see it, is that we are reluctant to revise an "authentic" Ainulindale with material from AAm. If, on the other hand, our goal were only to create a "true" narrative of events in Arda, there would be nothing wrong with combining two sources, as we have done elsewhere.

2. The whole issue of footnotes - with the stricter goal of creating an authentic text, all of this depends critically upon finding some motivation for the use of footnotes on the part of one of the authors or scribes. If the text is merely a true narrative, then footnotes become merely a matter of style. It would be simple enough, then, to re-structure the 'Yavanna as a tree' sentence to eliminate the first person (either in the body of the text or in a footnote).

Quickly glancing over Findegil's proposed revisions to incorporate AAm, I think they look good. But I must have a more careful look at the texts when I get the chance.

Findegil's revision of §42 to change rebirth to reincarnation also looks good.
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Old 03-18-2007, 10:01 AM   #92
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From the start of the work on the Ainulindale I found it starnge that for this one prat of our work we tried to creat a text as it would have existed in Middle-Earth, while for all the rest of project that never was any goal.

Therefore I say the soon we come to abonden that assumption the beter it will be.

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Old 03-19-2007, 04:43 PM   #93
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Having given all this a little thought, I find myself wondering: why are we trying to create a veritable, "realistic" Ainulindale when, as Findegil has pointed out, we long ago decided not to create a "real" Quenta Silmarillion?
So what we have here is a problem that we solved a long time ago.

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Therefore I say the soon we come to abonden that assumption the beter it will be.
That is fine by me.
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Old 05-03-2007, 07:26 PM   #94
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Findegil, having read your addtions, I must say:

Ai-1W-01
I would change:
Quote:
The war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth, and for long Melkor had the upper hand. Ai-1W-01 <AAm {And Melkor}[He] wrought great ruin with fire and deadly cold and marred all that the other Valar made.>
I would replace and melkor, because in the previous sentence we already are speaking about him.

All of the others, seems ok to me.

Quote:
But {think not, Ęlfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilśvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. And {I myself, long years agone,} some in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilśvatar.
As I have already posted, I really like this. Are you ok with this Findegil?

Findegil, I noticed that you have this in the file:
Quote:
. AINU-09 But{ think not, Ęlfwine, that} the shapes wherein the AINU-10 Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilśvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful.{ And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilśvatar.}[Footnote: <And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilśvatar.> [Quoth Pengološ]]
Isn't Aiwendil's suggestion less intrusive?

Quote:
It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither we know not. Whereas the Eldar remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and poignant, therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. Memory is our burden. For the Eldar die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered in the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence often they return and are {reborn among their children}[reincarnated].
Ok, with this also.
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Old 05-06-2007, 01:22 PM   #95
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Ai-1W-01: Agreed.

Yavanna as a tree:
I still hesitate to agree to Aiwendils suggestion. It is changing the personal expierience of Pengolodh to that of some unknow group. If you are both adamant on not using it as an footnote (still do not quiet understand the reason for this), then I would suggest this:
Quote:
But {think not, Ęlfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilśvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilśvatar.
Thus we would hold the personal touch and make hint at Pengolodh since only he would mention "the land of the Valar.

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Old 05-06-2007, 02:56 PM   #96
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If you are both adamant on not using it as an footnote (still do not quiet understand the reason for this)
My objection is not to a footnote as such but rather to the use of the first person. These problems arise regardless of whether we are ostensibly constructing the "real" Ainulindale or not.

Insofar as your objection to my proposal is that it emends a single reported sighting of Yavanna as a tree into multiple such reports, we might try:

Quote:
But {think not, Ęlfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are [not] at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilśvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. And {I myself}, long years gone, in the land of the Valar {have seen} Yavanna [has been seen] in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilśvatar.
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Old 05-07-2007, 05:02 AM   #97
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Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
My objection is not to a footnote as such but rather to the use of the first person. These problems arise regardless of whether we are ostensibly constructing the "real" Ainulindale or not.
So we have at long last found the core of the problem. Could you be more specific what is wrong for you with the first person, assuming that we would move the scene into a footnote ascribed to Pengolodh?
I can understand the awakwardness of the first person within the text and therefore find your last suggestion better then my own, but still I would like to understand fully why we do not keep Pengolodh as the source.

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Old 09-18-2007, 06:45 AM   #98
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Even so I did not (yet) fully understand way the perosnal experience of Pengolodh is removed I agree to do so and we will take Aiwendils last suggestion.

Therefore this chapter is done.

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Old 01-14-2011, 08:33 AM   #99
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Hello, after revising and compare this Ainulindale with mine, first of all I decided to edite the text with the idea of QS77 but with some differences. The words of Pengolodh were distributed in the Valaquenta, the first chapter of QS "Of the beggining of Time", and the second "Of Valinor and the Two Trees". But in general, the 95% of text more or less is the same, with a different reconstruction. As the information is the same I don't think necesary to say here. (And it would be very difficult to me, because I wasn't proffesional editing, and don't have annotated the source paragraphs like you.

I only would like to point that I had changed some "Worlds" by "Eäs", and "Earths" by "Ardas", from the passage Ilśvatar says "Eä, the World that Is".

And a possible addition:

§25 But the Valar now took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn thither by love for the Children of Ilśvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilśvatar; save only in majesty and splendour, for they are mighty and holy. Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge and desire of {the} visible {World}[Eä], rather than of {the World}[Eä] itself, and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being. Therefore the Valar may walk unclad, as it were, and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them, though they be present. But when they clad themselves the Valar arrayed them in the form some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice; even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment, but is not made thereby. Words, Phrases and Passages- Eldarin roots and stems, PE17, <The fanar <taken from above[or "raiment"]> of the Great Valar were said, by the Elves who had dwelt in Valinor, usually to have {had} a stature greater than that of tallest Elves, and when performing some great deed, or issuing great commands, to {have assumed} assume an awe-inspiring heigth.>
And Manwė and Ulmo and Aulė were as Kings; but Varda was the Queen of the Valar,{ and the spouse of Manwė,} and her beauty was high and terrible and of great reverence. {Yavanna was her sister, and Yavanna espoused Aulė; but Nienna dwells alone, even as does Ulmo. And these with Melkor are the Seven Great Ones of the Kingdom of Arda.} AINU-09 But{ think not, Ęlfwine, that} the shapes wherein the AINU-10 Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilśvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful.

Some {} are because for me are redundant.

Greetings

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Old 01-16-2011, 01:21 PM   #100
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That is a good find! I like that addition of yours. And will number it for easier reference as Ainu-08.8. But I am not sure that we need to change the time as Gondowe did.

What do other say?

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Old 01-24-2013, 05:04 AM   #101
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As I said in the introduction thread, were I gave the intro to the Appendix, I will provide what I did further on the Appendix:
Quote:
Ainulindalė
The basic text in this chapter is taken from Ainulindalė text D given in HoM-E 10. The necessary additions were limited. Most of them are small points of detail. Only the story of the First War of the Valar was taken out of the Annals of Aman found in HoM-E 11.
As the groupe deciseded that the framestory of Eriol / Ęlfwine would not be used all reverence to Eriol in the text of the Ainulindalė were skipt. Rśmil of Tśna and Pengolodh the Sage remained as writers or commentators to the text.
One mayor point of discussion was the arnagement of the text. We did consider to follow Christopher Tolkiens lead and move the words of Pengolodh concerning the coming of the Valar and their First War to the first chapter of the ‘Quenta Silmarillion’. The main argument for this movment is the straight forward chronology. But in the end the argument prevailed that the Quenta deals with the Silmaril and the real beginning of that story line is the making of the trees which is recounted at the start of the ‘Quenta Silmarillion’.
In addition there was the issue of Pengolodh giving an verbal side note to Ęlfwine about Yavanna seen by him as a tree. The nice and pictural remark that provided an information not given elsewere motivated all members to keep that passage in some way. But as it contained direct speech to Ęlfwine it was clear that we had to change it. The real motive behind the arguments were only late in the discussion revealed and so many a possible solution was proposed without any real chance of success.
Aiwendil and Maedhros suggested to incooperat the passage into the text, by deleting the indications of the spoken communication. This would mean to make the observer of scene unkown and to give the actuel wording to Rumil. The advantage is that we hold the passage as a part of the text.
Antoine and Findegil suggested to move the passage into a footnote. The advantage is that we could leave the passage in the mouth of Pengolodh without to much emendations in the passage itself. The disadvantage is that we lift a spoken word of Pengolodh to a writen word a scribed to or written by Pengološ and that we creat a textual footnote (in contrast to editorial footnotes) which we have avioded.
Later it came out that Aiwendils concern was exactly the first person reporting of the sight and not so much the footnote. Therefore, even so Aiwendil never explained his concerns in more detail in the end the Yavanna as a tree passage was taken into the body of the text.
Further details:
In §15 Tolkien left "Halls of Aman" unchanged so he in all other places changed it to "Halls of Eä". We considered that as a slip of the pen and changed it consitent with the rest of the text.
In §16 Tolkien left in the passage about Aulė same verbs in present tense, while all the serounding was changed to past tense. We considere that also a slip of the pen and changed it to past tense.
In §17 we added from the C text of the Ainulindalė "Behold the towers and mansions of ice!" since we thought that it was lost without intention.
In the §'s 23 and 24 we have take up passages from Myths Transformed in HoM-E 10 dealing with the first establishment of the kingdom of Arda and the first strife of Melkor with the other Valar. Even so Myths Transformed dealed mostly with the round earth changes, we found that the changed motives and additional details in these passages should not be lost to our flat earth version.
In §25 we took up a passage from Words, Phrases and Passages- Eldarin roots and stems, Parma Eldalamberon no. 17 dealing with the fanar of the Valar and their stature.
In §32 we added a passage from Myths Transformed in HoM-E 10 that dealt with the grive of the Valar seeing that Melkor had turned darkness and night to time of fright. Its content is not fully compatible with the story of the lamps and their aferlasting light during the spring of Arda, but we nonetheless found it essential enough to add it.
Especially the last point mentioned might be worth reconsidering.

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Old 01-30-2013, 01:26 PM   #102
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It seems that we never actually discussed the changes in §25 and §32. I like them both in principle, but I think we may need to work harder to integrate them into the text. I will have a careful look at them tonight if I can.

But I think you are right in your last point: we can scarcely say 'it was a part of their design that there should be change and alteration upon Earth, and neither day perpetual nor night without end' when we are dealing with the very part of the story where they have put into effect their plan for perpetual day under the Lamps.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:12 PM   #103
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After looking back at this again, I realize that we never actually came to a decision on what to do with the material concerning the first war, the Lamps, and the making of Valinor - whether to place it in the Ainulindale or in the first chapter of the Silmarillion. Since we are not constructing a 'veritable' Ainulindale (nor Quenta Silmarillion), perhaps we need not worry too much about that. I do think that the one thing to avoid is tell of the first war twice; that is, we should have a single account built out of the AAm, LQ, the Ainulindale, and any other pertinent texts.

If we decide to put this material in the Ainulindale, though, it isn't immediately obvious - at least, it isn't to me - where the break should go. There's overlap here among the Ainulindale D, AAm, and LQ. Indeed, I think we've largely overlooked until now the fact that LQ also has an account of this part of the history - though Antoine seems to have fully grokked that fact, and I now think his suggestion that we should consider the Ainulindale together with chapter 1 of the Quenta Silmarillion made a lot of sense. For whatever we decide here will have implications for that chapter. If we decide to incorporate everything up to the building of Valinor into the Ainulindale (which is as far as the Ainulindale D goes), then if we want to avoid repeating the same material twice, we will have no 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' left!

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to put the material in question in the first chapter of the QS. That way we avoid the awkwardness of determining a chapter break, and QS chapter 1 can be constructed out of LQ, AAm, and the Ainulindale so as to most completely tell the story of those early ages. I think in the end it turns out that Christopher Tolkien made a very wise decision in doing essentially that.

Matters would be very different if we were trying to construct the 'real' Ainulindale and the Quenta Silmarillion. In that case, it would make perfect sense for the story to be told in both texts; and in that case, the argument that the QS should move immediately to the Two Trees, the source of the light of the Silmarils, would have force. But since our goal is a complete history, those concerns don't really apply.

Findegil, earlier you expressed a preference for putting this material in the Ainulindale. Do you still hold this opinion? If so, can you explain your reasoning?

As for AINU-08.8, looking at it again I think Gondowe's proposal is good as it is. I'm holding off on diving too deeply into the other un-discussed changes (partially because I now think they should wait until we take up 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees').
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Old 02-01-2013, 04:05 PM   #104
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Hello Aiwendil and Findegil is nice to see that you are still going on. I am very very busy and with not much time but always thinking in our loved professor.
As you can see in the chapter structure in the thread about my spanish project, I introduced a first chapter that called "Of the beginning of time" (extracted from the first one of the Annals of Aman) where is told the story previous the Two Trees, with the texts from Ainulindale, AAm, etc. That was a good idea of Christopher Tolkien.
So I'm right with Aiwendil about that point.

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Old 02-01-2013, 04:50 PM   #105
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As my proposal 1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees (unposted here since we wanted to check all chapters that we finished so far first) goes, it has lot repeating from The Ainulindale. The focus is changed a bit and therefore I found it bearable. In The Ainulindale the focus lies more on the Legend up to the War of the Lamps and the building of Valinor is only shortly mentioned, while in 1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees the Legend up to the War of Lampy is only recounted in short and the building of Valinor greatly expanded.

This looks okay for me if both The Ainulindale and Silmarillion are considered as single works. But if we take them as an entity it might be better to avoid any repeatition. The Only problem is that we have in our structure The Valaquenta in between. Therefore I agree that it is better to take up the full History of Arda into the Silmarillion if we want aviod repeatition.

The question is then were we make the split. Christopher Tolkien does make it at the begining of the words of Pengolodh. But to avoid repeatition completle this seems to late. I would make the split thus:
Quote:
§23 So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of the Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilśvatar. And in this work the chief part was taken by Manwė and Aulė and Ulmo. But Melkor, too, was there AINU-08.2{from the first}<soon>, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it, if he might, to his own desires and purposesAINU-08.3.{; and he kindled great fires. When therefore Earth was young and full of flame Melkor coveted it, and he said to the Valar: 'This shall be my own kingdom! And I name it unto myself!'
§24 But Manwė was the brother of Melkor ...
§25 But the Valar now took to themselves ...
§26 And behold! ...
§27 Thus began the first battle ...
§28 But of all such matters, ...

Here are the words of Pengološ to Ęlfwine

§29 And when he had ended the Ainulindalė, ...
§30 And Pengološ answered: ...
§31 This tale {I have heard ...
§32 But at length Melkor returned in secret, ...
§33 Thus it was that the Earth lay darkling again, ...
§34 But in Valinor the Valar dwelt with all their kin and folk, ...
§35 And in the midst of the Blessed Realm ...
§36 But Manwė Sślimo, ...
§37 But Ulmo was alone, ...
§38 And in that time of dark ... and even the heart of Melkor himself was shaken, foreboding the wrath to come.}
§39 AINU-16 Now all is said{ to thee, Ęlfwine, for this present,} concerning the manner of the Earth and its rulers in the time before days and ere the world became such as the Children have known it.{ Of these thou hast not asked, but a little I will say and so make an end.} For Elves and Men are the Children; and since they understood not fully that theme by which they entered into the Music, none of the Ainur dared to add anything to their fashion. For which reason the Valar are to these kindreds rather their elders and their chieftains than their masters; and if ever in their dealings with Elves and Men the Ainur have endeavoured to force them when they would not be guided, this has seldom turned to good, howsoever good the intent. The dealings of the Ainur have been mostly with the Elves, for Ilśvatar made the Eldar more like in nature to the Ainur, though less in might and stature, whereas to Men he gave strange gifts.
§40 For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence and for an age Ilśvatar sat alone in thought. Then he spoke, and he said: 'Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Eldar and the Atani! But the Eldar shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani (which are Men) I will give a new gift.'
§41 Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.
§42 But Ilśvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said: 'These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.' Yet we of the Eldar believe that Men are often a grief to Manwė, who knows most of the mind of Ilśvatar. For it seems to us that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, and yet he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.
It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither we know not. Whereas the Eldar remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and poignant, therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. Memory is our burden. For the Eldar die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered in the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence often they return and are {reborn among their children}[reincarnated]. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the World (it is said); wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilśvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar said unto us that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur, whereas Ilśvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

AINU-17 <End of the Ainulindalė {spoken}[written] by Rśmil {to Ęlfwine}.>
Once we agree were we set the end of The Ainulindale I will try to make a proposal for the first chapter (or chapters) of The Silmarillon. I have the feeling that it might be neccessary to use the headline that Chirstofer Tolkien used in Sil77: Of the Beginning of Days to collect all the material that we have to transfer.

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Old 02-02-2013, 10:05 PM   #106
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Greetings, Gondowe! Good to see you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
But to avoid repeatition completle this seems to late. I would make the split thus:
Just to make sure I understand - is your proposal then to put the split just before §23 of the Ainulindale? That is, end the Ainulindale with §22 and move the rest into QS chapter 1? I suppose that seems reasonable. Of course, that interrupts the flow of the text, but I doubt that can be avoided. I wonder if it would be taking too great a liberty, though, to take the first sentence of §23 as the end of our Ainulindale; for it really does follow on from the end of §22, and it reads a good deal better as the final sentence of a chapter.

I too have a proposal for an 'Of the Beginning of Days'/'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' that I put together a few years ago. I believe that in my verison I assumed that the Ainulindale would go up to §28, so I incorporated only material from §29 to the end of Ainulindale D. But adding in pertinent material from §23 to §28 should not be difficult. It will be interesting to compare your version and mine!

But before we do that, I think we should return to the other finished chapters that I have notes on.
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:47 AM   #107
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Well is too difficult compare the inner text of both versions, mine and yours but with the different reconstruction of the phrases, and some minor differences in the insertions of the external paragraphs, if it could be of help, broadly, my Ainulindale is from §1 to §28, and the then the words of Pengolodh stars form §39 till the end. The rest is inserted in the Chapter one of QS "Of the beginning of time".

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Old 02-04-2013, 03:29 AM   #108
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Gondowe, it is nice to have your input to the project. Sorry for not greeting you in my last post, but even so there were 45 minutes in between, I think it was a matter of cross posting. This one took a long time to write.

Aiwendil, my proposal for the split was at AINU-08.3, which is in the middle of sentence 2 of §23. In our original editing at this point we inserted a § from Mhyts Transformed, which I suppose would make a good starting point for the new chapter as it reads:
Quote:
After the Valar, who before were the Ainur of the Great Song, entered into Eä, those who were the noblest among them and understood most of the mind of Ilśvatar sought amid the immeasurable regions of the Beginning for that place where they should establish the Kingdom of Arda in time to come. And ...
But I would end The Ainulindale with §§ 39-42 because they clearly belong into this chapter.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
I too have a proposal for an 'Of the Beginning of Days'/'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' that I put together a few years ago. I believe that in my verison I assumed that the Ainulindale would go up to §28, so I incorporated only material from §29 to the end of Ainulindale D. But adding in pertinent material from §23 to §28 should not be difficult. It will be interesting to compare your version and mine!
Yes, that will become an intersting work! As it has been when I treid to bring the proposals Maedhros and me for The Ruin of Doriath together. If you are willing to provide me with your proposal, I will make both versions comparable for the public forum.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
But before we do that, I think we should return to the other finished chapters that I have notes on.
Agreed, and first of all we should finish our discussion here on The Ainulindale.

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Old 02-04-2013, 06:41 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gondowe
my Ainulindale is from §1 to §28, and the then the words of Pengolodh stars form §39 till the end.
I see. Similar to that in QS77, then, which sounds pretty reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
Aiwendil, my proposal for the split was at AINU-08.3, which is in the middle of sentence 2 of §23.
Quote:
But I would end The Ainulindale with §§ 39-42 because they clearly belong into this chapter.
Ah, okay; I understand now. And I agree that §§39-42 belong in this chapter, regardless of where the split is made. So I think we are in agreement here.

Quote:
Agreed, and first of all we should finish our discussion here on The Ainulindale.
I think that I actually have no more comments on this chapter, and as far as I can see, all issues have been resolved. I will wait until we start on 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' to address the additions to §§ 23-38, since they will be in that chapter now.

Looking back, I do see that perhaps I never fully communicated to you what my concern was about the 'Yavanna as a tree' thing. Essentially, my objection to the passage is only that since we have removed the implicit frame-story, as it were, of Pengolodh speaking to Aelfwine, we must remove also the asides made by Pengolodh, and the references he makes to his own experiences - either by deleting them or by integrating them into the more neutral, third-person narration.

But perhaps, if we are going to revisit that issue, it should also wait for 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees', since that is where the passage will go according to our current plan.
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:11 AM   #110
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Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Looking back, I do see that perhaps I never fully communicated to you what my concern was about the 'Yavanna as a tree' thing. Essentially, my objection to the passage is only that since we have removed the implicit frame-story, as it were, of Pengolodh speaking to Aelfwine, we must remove also the asides made by Pengolodh, and the references he makes to his own experiences - either by deleting them or by integrating them into the more neutral, third-person narration.
Thanks for explianing. For me the Pengolodh asides were okay, becuase I thought of the text as written down in Middle-Earth by Pengolodh out of his memory of a text written by Rśmil.
Quote:
But perhaps, if we are going to revisit that issue, it should also wait for 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees', since that is where the passage will go according to our current plan.
Agreed, but up to now I am okay with the solution we have found. Anyhow this chapter seems down for the moment.

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Old 02-05-2013, 04:35 AM   #111
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Prepaering the text for I found that we have to change Ainu-02:
As it is now we skipt all the words of Pengolodh so I think we have to skip them as well from the headline:
Quote:
The Music of the
Ainur

AINU-01 This was made by Rśmil of Tśna in the Elder Days.
AINU-02 {It is here written as it was spoken in
Eressėa to Ęlfwine by Pengološ the Sage. To it
are added the further words that Pengološ
spoke at that time concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani;
of which more is said hereafter.


The Music of the Ainur
and the Coming of the Valar

These are the words that Pengološ spake to Ęlfwine concerning the beginning of the World. First he recited to him the Ainulindalė as Rśmil made it.}
§1 There was Ilśvatar, the All-father, ...
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:14 PM   #112
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[I see. Similar to that in QS77, then, which sounds pretty reasonable.]

But QS77 does not end with §28? I mean my Ainulindale ends with §39 to §42.

[I think that I actually have no more comments on this chapter, and as far as I can see, all issues have been resolved. I will wait until we start on 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' to address the additions to §§ 23-38, since they will be in that chapter now.]

Does it mean that you are not agreed with the insert of a previous chapter one (Of the beginnig of time/days)?

[Looking back, I do see that perhaps I never fully communicated to you what my concern was about the 'Yavanna as a tree' thing. Essentially, my objection to the passage is only that since we have removed the implicit frame-story, as it were, of Pengolodh speaking to Aelfwine, we must remove also the asides made by Pengolodh, and the references he makes to his own experiences - either by deleting them or by integrating them into the more neutral, third-person narration.]

If it helps, that passage and others (the most from TBoLT) were inserted by me in the Valaquenta, that one in the description of Yavanna. In third-person.

Sorry but I don't know why not quote the sentences right

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Old 02-05-2013, 04:28 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gondowe
But QS77 does not end with §28? I mean my Ainulindale ends with §39 to §42.
You're right, I'd forgotten that QS77 moved the 'Gift of Men' material as well.

Quote:
Does it mean that you are not agreed with the insert of a previous chapter one (Of the beginnig of time/days)?
Well, when I wrote that I had not yet considered the possibility (raised by Findegil in the 'outline' thread) of splitting 'Of the Beginning of Time' (or 'Days') apart from 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees'. But regardless of whether we do split those chapters, we should probably tackle both of them at the same time, and hold off on considering the changes to §§ 23-38 until then.

Quote:
Sorry but I don't know why not quote the sentences right
Format the quotes like this:

[ QUOTE ]Sorry but I don't know why not quote the sentences right[ /QUOTE ]

. . . except remove the spaces between the before and after the brackets [ and ].

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
As it is now we skipt all the words of Pengolodh so I think we have to skip them as well from the headline
Since we have decided that we aren't creating the 'veritable' Ainulindale, I wonder whether the heading saying that it was made by Rumil should be omitted as well. But it's a small point, since even if we don't have the true Ainulindale of Rumil, we have something very much like it and clearly based on it.
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Old 09-04-2015, 01:42 PM   #114
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Eye

I found a passage that I don't recall was discussed before:

Quote:
And Manwė and Ulmo and Aulė were as Kings; but
Varda was the Queen of the Valar, and the spouse of Manwė,
and her beauty was high and terrible and of great reverence.
Yavanna was her sister, and Yavanna espoused Aulė; but
Nienna dwells alone, even as does Ulmo. And these with
Melkor are the Seven Great Ones of the Kingdom of Arda.
In the later mythology, as far as I remember, Yavanna is not the sister of Varda.

Also, the Aratar are eight (or nine, if Melkor is included) - Oromė and Mandos are missing here.


One more thing - what about the passages from the Myths Transformed, that were proposed in an earlier post?
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Old 09-07-2015, 03:15 AM   #115
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Yavanna sister of Varda: If a fact is not mentioned it does not necessarily meant that is no longer true. Or have we overlooked a plain statement that gainsaid the two beign 'siblings'?

Eight (Nine) Aratar: Could you provide us with a quote for that? I can search myself, but since you seem to remember the fact, you may find it much easier.

The passages from Myths transformed were added in the part of text that is not in Ainulidale proper but in the additional talk of Pengolodh to Ęlfwine. Since we in the end moved that material to the first chapter/chapters of the Quenta Simalrillion we stoped discussing them here. You could take them as still under consideration.

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Old 09-07-2015, 05:11 AM   #116
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The War of the Jewels: Quendi and Eldar - Note on the "Language of the Valar"

Quote:
The element maxan, said to mean 'authority, authoritative decision', was also used in the form Mįhan, one of the eight chiefs of the Valar, usually translated as Aratar.
Here it is explicit that there were eight of the Aratar.


Another quote taken from Morgoth's Ring: The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Phase II - Valaquenta. This is a commentary by Christopher Tolkien on the statement in the Valaquenta that there are "Seven Great Ones of the Realm of Arda":

Quote:
At the end of the account of the Valar and Valier appears the name and conception of the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda, of whom there are eight after the removal of Melkor. This contrasts with the conception of 'the Seven Great Ones of the Realm of Arda' (p. 147, §10a), among whom Melkor is numbered, but not Oromė, nor Mandos.

Concerning Yavanna and Varda being siblings:

Quote:
The statement in §5 that Yavanna is the sister of Varda does not appear in QS, but it was merely derived from that in QS §8, that Vįna is 'the younger sister of Varda and Palśrien'. This goes back to Q (IV. 79, 167), but no further. Varda and Yavanna were still sisters in AAm (p. 49, §3), but the idea was abandoned in corrections to LQ 2.
This is also from Morgoth's Ring - it is found in The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Phase I; it is a comment by Christopher Tolkien found in the notes of the Chapter I: Of the Valar.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:20 AM   #117
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Thanks for providing these info. It looks like we have to do a complete cross check between our text and notes providing the development from LQ1 (which seems to be the basic text of our editing) to the Valaquenta of [B]Sil77[b].

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P.S.: It seems how ever we work on a text some erros are unavoidable. Once I did such a development of the text from LQ1 to LQ2 silently and confused the group so that I had to rework it with editing marks for each and every change. In this case it seems that it was forgotten completly with equaly unwanted result. (From a glimps into my draft of the first chapters of the Quenta Silamrillion it looks luckily as if I have done well there.)
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Old 09-07-2015, 01:04 PM   #118
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One question just sprang up in my mind - have you included the part of the Myths Transformed where Manwė finds that Melkor has fallen and has been weakened, and when he feigns to repent when the Valar storm Utumno?
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Old 09-08-2015, 03:44 AM   #119
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Yes, it is included in my draft version of the chapter Of the Coming of the Elves.

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Old 09-08-2015, 04:16 AM   #120
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Yes, it is included in my draft version of the chapter Of the Coming of the Elves.
I am asking because I did not. I DID want to include it, and I thought it pitiable that it was excluded from my version - however, as much as I wanted, I could not find a way to incorporate it without resorting to a heavy rewording - basically, when I was finished revising it, I realized there were more words and sentences coming from me than from Tolkien - hence, I excluded it. I know this thread isn't exactly the best place to debate Of the Coming of the Elves but I am very curious about your version - maybe it could still be salvaged.
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